SO... WHERE'S THAT RMNV5?

Posts

Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
6642
author=Feldschlacht IV
Games like Hero's Realm, Ara Fell, Dreaming Mary, and projects such as Shadows of Adam (these names are just the top of my head, not a comprehensive list) are the kinds of efforts I'd like to see RMN hold the torch for, games that people have veritably played and enjoyed.

Some of us take this sort of thing very seriously (regardless of the veneer we use). We want to sink thousands of hours into mining fresh material out of our brain places and throwing it into a machine where it can be refined and melted down into one solid product. RPG Maker is just the easiest venue for it. It's the convenience that allows us to actually go ahead and make these relatively blockbuster games.

What RMN has always prided itself on, however, is giving everyone a free and equal chance to prove themselves and improve. Sure, we still get members who pop by just to ask how to advance in a game they're playing and do nothing else (is there any way to implement a guest PM thing, or is that just asking for trouble?), but the mission statement - for better or for worse - has always been "your games, your way". RMN is essentially the Youtube of our chosen medium. Any schmuck can throw (and has thrown) any old thing together, call it a day and request a page here to soak up all the attention they wouldn't get elsewhere because they're not a big time producer. As long as you don't break the rules and show that you're at least trying, you'll get a nest here.

Unfortunately, this also makes us appear like we don't care and the effect it has on those of us who do use this platform and take it seriously is it makes us look bad. Using default resources (I'd include REFMAP and Mac&Blu here as they're really nothing more than a glorified RTP at this point) are met with harsh criticism, while rips (default resources that are just marginally harder to find, truth be told and legality aside) have only now started losing favor in the community because the programs they're best suited for have had official English releases.
While good thoughts, I think that's sort of getting besides the point; I have no interest in fundamentally changing the kinds and types of games we focus on/cater to/promote/encourage/etc, nor am I saying we need to not focus on RPG Maker (although expanding would be cool, too). I'm just saying the site could be better at it.

WIP, Soli, and TFT nailed it on the previous page.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
6642
How so? Would we go so far as to make a secondary list of games that are "quality verified", where only the best and brightest would shine? While such prestige would indeed promote higher development while not changing the mission statement, this would also require more from the site's code monkeys in order to implement and more from the staff to manage which, from what I've read, doesn't seem likely.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5146
I don't think self-deprecating humor and goofy antics are mutually exclusive with reaching an audience. I also don't think being an amateur is mutually exclusive with creating fun games, nor that acknowledging that you're an amateur is mutually exclusive with convincing people to play them.

The indie gaming bubble has already burst and died, anyway. At this point you can split indie gaming into three groups:
1) hopeless latecomers begging for table scraps without realizing that the table is empty and everyone sitting at it is a skeleton
2) professional game studios masquerading as "indie" because it makes people less hostile towards them
3) hobbyists doing it for fun

This site is firmly grounded in group 3 and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Don't pine to be something else, just own that shit and be the best goddamn site you can about the thing that you're actually about.

You can't turn against your site's core audience just because a few people on the site's staff don't identify with that group any more and thing a different group would be more valuable. There are twenty thousand other people on the site who love what this place is about. Replace the staff members, if you have to. For example maybe we could get rid of WIP in favor of a new head admin. Kentona sounds like a cool dude with a very reasonable vision.

Edit: None of this changes the fact that my ultimate goal is to sell out and become the next Notch
author=Corfaisus
How so? Would we go so far as to make a secondary list of games that are "quality verified", where only the best and brightest would shine? While such prestige would indeed promote higher development while not changing the mission statement, this would also require more from the site's code monkeys in order to implement and more from the staff to manage which, from what I've read, doesn't seem likely.

You're right, and those are good ideas, but what we're all saying is that we need to start with the fundamentals, namely things like RMN v.5 that WIP is inquiring about in the first place.

Like I said, WIP, Soli, and TFT nailed it in their sentiments. Let's go from there.

I'm not feeling what LockeZ is saying tho ijs
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6064
Before starting to discuss grand plans concerning RMN's future, I think it's important to ask ourselves what purpose we actually want the site to serve. From my perspective, it's not helpful - and even unnecessarily destructive - to call RMN "irrelevant" or, even worse, "a joke." I do however agree that it is a "niche community" and not "professional" - and to me, that is exactly the reason why it still has a right to exist.

There already are large, centralised and professional places out there where people with huge amibitions hoping to gather huge followings or fill their huge purses can go, and both potentially succeed or potentially fail. People don't really need RMN for that, and there is little we can do to to make them. That's not the niche we can or need to fill, because it is filled already. LockeZ's assessment is correct: This is mainly a hobbyist website, and if there's any field RMN should actively try to improve on, it's this.

I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea to expand our horizon. We've seen a lot of cool initiatives aiming to connect RMN to other sites and media more consistently recently. But at the same time, I don't see the point in trying to do what other websites we like to link to or even have ties with are already doing. Instead, we should focus on what we can do well and try to get better at it - and that is providing a welcoming and encouraging starting point for hobbyist game makers and giving them a constructive opportunity to show and improve their works and abilities.

Now, I am aware that my views on commercial games do not reflect those of the majority of the community by any means. But personally, I am not here to pay money, nor am I here to make money. I'm here to share a hobby. I'm here to enjoy and provide feedback on people's creative endeavours, and hope to achieve the same reception of my own projects. And I'm here to interact with other people who share similar interests as I do. Sure, that can mean that even high-quality games only get a few thousand downloads from here. But that doesn't make what goes on on RMN meaningless at all.

In short, I think that it's a good idea to want to improve and build upon RMN's strengths, but it's important to keep in mind that RMN's strengths are its welcoming and open hosting system, and its community. You can easily link to resources hosted on another website, but you can't just replace people and (positive) attitudes.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being ambitious. But if reaching for the stars just for the sake of it makes you forget what the actual point behind it is, then ambition can easily transform into overambition. And overambition has killed many a promising project. Including websites.
unity
You're magical to me.
11150
I think LockeZ has a point, tho. It's all fine and dandy to reach for greatness and be the best we can be, but I don't think we should forget what RMN is and has been to many people, both hobbyists and others. I think RMN is an amazing place for newbies to take their first steps and get support, and having a gamepage where they can get feedback and talk to players is an amazing asset for a developer. RMN is already doing a lot of great things, and I don't think that should be dismissed just because we're relatively small in the overall scope of things.

While I personally feel it's always good to strive for better, the fact that I've gotten the attention, help and support I have through this site feels like a wonderful miracle already. Becoming part of a community that's this passionate and where I feel like I belong is priceless.

I'm all for the site growing, expanding and getting bigger and better. But I don't like the idea of looking at our current state as a niche community as something contemptible or unworthy.

EDIT: And NS just said most of what I was trying to say, only better XD
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=LockeZ
There are twenty thousand other people on the site who love what this place is about. Replace the staff members, if you have to. For example maybe we could get rid of WIP in favor of a new head admin. Kentona sounds like a cool dude with a very reasonable vision.
I have some very old news for you...


Originally constructed, this place wasn't supposed to be "newbie's first stop into wasting their summer." Back in the day, it was pretty forward thinking on different ways to connect with people about your game. As TFT so eloquently ribbed me about, I had also planned to take it even further. There haven't really been any changes to this place since the time I left. That isn't inherently bad, but it isn't what I expected. I wasn't trying to get into a doctrine war with this thread.

The way things are these days, I don't know if you can really "get away" with RMN as it is now. Primarily:

-Revenue source. Websites do not run themselves.
-Manpower. There's nobody who's sole "job" is to maintaindevelop the site technically.

Those are killer things. RMN got away with it in the past because I only had a mild interest in MAKING games and preferred making websites. But even casually browsing this place every few months, I can see the exact code I wrote six years ago show up.
kentona
One of RMN's Top 10 Admins of all-time
21178
You did an admirable job.

ankylo's sole job is to maintain the site technically - and he's doing a helluva job. The problem is me - I haven't been upgrading or enhancing the site code since early 2015 in any significant way.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6064
Rather than trying to shift some sort of "blame" around, I'd prefer to just ask you this, kentona:
Is there anything we - as in the community - can do to support your endeavours or help you free up time, energy and capacities to work on the site's code? In what way can the average RMNer contribute to making this a better, more powerful and more easily manageable website? (And a website that is more encouraging and satisfying, and less of a burden, to its admins to boot, if possible?)
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=kentona
You did an admirable job.

ankylo's sole job is to maintain the site technically - and he's doing a helluva job. The problem is me - I haven't been upgrading or enhancing the site code since early 2015 in any significant way.

I meant technical development. Anky does a great job with sysadmin stuff. RMN even uses Let's Encrypt! Yay!
author=unity
I'm all for the site growing, expanding and getting bigger and better. But I don't like the idea of looking at our current state as a niche community as something contemptible or unworthy.


I'm seeing a lot of middle ground posts about "being a little more serious but keep it the way it is" Doesn't sound like a solution or even acknowledgement of the situation.

The way the site is now, is that it doesn't solve anyone's problem. It'll satisfy the 30-40 active people on here as it has for the last 9 years based on sentimentality or coolness. But if you want to make the site bigger or better it requires admitting that things aren't very good now. You either have a niche community or you make the site relevant, this discussion will just be wishy washy talk otherwise. Since we're already a niche close community it isn't really a 2 way choice.

author=WIP
And you were right: BL doesn't have to post on RMN to be successful. This site can't be sustained on grandpas coming back and posting/updating/whatever for nostalgia's sake.


Yeah I will concede to this point. A game like Lisa had a launch pad of sorts on RMN. But after the kickstarter and steam success there was no reason for this creator to come back simply because he isn't an oldschool regular. That's just the way it is I suppose.
author=NeverSilent
Rather than trying to shift some sort of "blame" around, I'd prefer to just ask you this, kentona:
Is there anything we - as in the community - can do to support your endeavours or help you free up time, energy and capacities to work on the site's code? In what way can the average RMNer contribute to making this a better, more powerful and more easily manageable website? (And a website that is more encouraging and satisfying, and less of a burden, to its admins to boot, if possible?)


Agree with this; what needs to be done, what can be done, and what can we do?

We know the issues; what's next?
kentona
One of RMN's Top 10 Admins of all-time
21178
NEED:
The site's codebase needs further enhancements, the frontend needs a complete overhaul to be RWD.

CAN:
anything CAN be done - the tools are out there, we have a server, we have a sysadmin (ankylo).

WE CAN DO:
1) hope someone like a CROS or WIP comes along and wants to completely re-code RMN*
2) putz along and wait while ankylo and I pick at it piecemeal
3) try to organize some massive collaboration and hope that RMNv5 comes out at the end
4) do nothing

ISSUES:
a) Time
b) Effort
c) Will


If someone wants to make a functioning prototype of a responsive web designed RMN and share their CSS/AngularJS/Bootstrap/or whatever tools they used I am open to that. I haven't solicited anyone for it.


*searches for RMN members will fully uppercase names
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6064
Well that's encouraging...

I don't know the first thing about coding, so I can't contribute on that front. On topic of this issue, however:
author=kentona
a) Time


If currently our only realistic option is
author=kentona
2) putz along and wait while ankylo and I pick at it piecemeal

then I'd like to rephrase my question to aim at something different:

Are there any tasks that you and ankylo currently have to take care of yourselves, but that could also be handed over to other members instead? That way, maybe we could reduce the workload pressure on the two of you, so that you'd have more time to devote to the tasks that currently only you are capable of.

Maybe I'm expecting too much of you and of the rest of the userbase now. Maybe I'm contradicting myself, even, since personally I currently don't really see the need for an RMNv5 anyway. Maybe I'm being a hopeless optimist. But if you say RMN can and should be improved, then I want to believe you. And I want to believe that this is a challenge you and the community as a whole are capable of tackling together.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5146
author=Darken
I'm seeing a lot of middle ground posts about "being a little more serious but keep it the way it is" Doesn't sound like a solution or even acknowledgement of the situation.

The way the site is now, is that it doesn't solve anyone's problem. It'll satisfy the 30-40 active people on here as it has for the last 9 years based on sentimentality or coolness. But if you want to make the site bigger or better it requires admitting that things aren't very good now. You either have a niche community or you make the site relevant, this discussion will just be wishy washy talk otherwise.

This is all extremely stupid. The site is valuable to thousands of active users as it is now. You're just apparently not one of them.

Every community is a niche unless you're making Twitter or Reddit. The key is to be as relevant as possible to that niche.

We all know #shmup doesn't like what RMN stands for. That doesn't mean you speak for the entire human race other than Craze and Liberty. If you don't personally find the site relevant any more then... ok, bye? A couple of you said there are other sites that fit your needs better. Maybe use them instead of trying to sabotage this place.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=LockeZ
author=Darken
I'm seeing a lot of middle ground posts about "being a little more serious but keep it the way it is" Doesn't sound like a solution or even acknowledgement of the situation.

The way the site is now, is that it doesn't solve anyone's problem. It'll satisfy the 30-40 active people on here as it has for the last 9 years based on sentimentality or coolness. But if you want to make the site bigger or better it requires admitting that things aren't very good now. You either have a niche community or you make the site relevant, this discussion will just be wishy washy talk otherwise.
This is all extremely stupid. The site is valuable to thousands of active users as it is now. You're just apparently not one of them.

Every community is a niche unless you're making Twitter or Reddit. The key is to be as relevant as possible to that niche.

We all know #shmup doesn't like what RMN stands for. That doesn't mean you speak for the entire human race other than Craze and Liberty. If you don't personally find the site relevant any more then... ok, bye? A couple of you said there are other sites that fit your needs better. Maybe use them instead of trying to sabotage this place.
Jesus, how can you people not move on from #shmup? The world is a big place.

Self-critique and introspection is never a bad thing. People have different viewpoints and needs. Nobody needs you to tell them to go away if their ideas are different; I think they can manage it just fine on their own.

Having said that, stop fucking up my thread with your petulant bullshit.

author=kentona
NEED:
The site's codebase needs further enhancements, the frontend needs a complete overhaul to be RWD.

CAN:
anything CAN be done - the tools are out there, we have a server, we have a sysadmin (ankylo).

WE CAN DO:
1) hope someone like a CROS or WIP comes along and wants to completely re-code RMN*
2) putz along and wait while ankylo and I pick at it piecemeal
3) try to organize some massive collaboration and hope that RMNv5 comes out at the end
4) do nothing

ISSUES:
a) Time
b) Effort
c) Will


If someone wants to make a functioning prototype of a responsive web designed RMN and share their CSS/AngularJS/Bootstrap/or whatever tools they used I am open to that. I haven't solicited anyone for it.


*searches for RMN members will fully uppercase names
I'm honestly leaning toward doing my own thing. I don't want to drag a living site through my madness (again). If RMN was still my plaything, I might consider it. But I think that day is long gone. Attitudes as displayed in this very thread show that some people DO like it how it is. That's not something to ignore.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
22972
I don't think it would be a huge imposition to the users to bring the site up to date. I also don't see how updating RMN has to change what it stands for.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5146
Oh yeah I'm all for making it more user friendly and more intuitive and making playlists not suck and adding cool stuff and possibly burning user statuses to the ground. I just can't stand that people decided to use this thread as a platform to say that RMN sucks and is irrelevant and what it stands for is shit and that it should be replaced with a difference website that targets a different audience.
Nothing Darken said was objectively incorrect and even if it was, it wasn't spiteful. Stop it, LockeZ, you're talking nonsense.