SO... WHERE'S THAT RMNV5?

Posts

pianotm
The TM is for Turtle Motivator
21412
LockeZ
Oh yeah I'm all for making it more user friendly and more intuitive and making playlists not suck and adding cool stuff and possibly burning user statuses to the ground. I just can't stand that people decided to use this thread as a platform to say that RMN sucks and is irrelevant and what it stands for is shit and that it should be replaced with a difference website that targets a different audience.


Oh, no. There's a lot of TL;DR in this thread. I simply don't feel welcome at other websites. I've thought of myself as a newbie for a long time, but I've recently had to face the fact that while I may be a novice, I can't really call myself a newbie anymore. I don't even feel welcome at RMW, and I've tried to spend some time there. If we're talking about making this website geared to the "more professional" indie dev at the expense of being a great site for newbies, I totally agree with LockeZ, then.
kentona
One of RMN's Top 10 Admins of all-time
20511
Well, he was wrong about the "30 or 40 people" bit. By about a factor of 10 or 20, daily.
Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
1594
I don't understand the technical stuff, and I think RMN is pretty amazing, I absolutely love it how it is right now, and I feel it does exactly what it needs to do, that's my opinion :D
Also guys, please stop fighting... X~X
author=pianotm
LockeZ
Oh yeah I'm all for making it more user friendly and more intuitive and making playlists not suck and adding cool stuff and possibly burning user statuses to the ground. I just can't stand that people decided to use this thread as a platform to say that RMN sucks and is irrelevant and what it stands for is shit and that it should be replaced with a difference website that targets a different audience.
Oh, no. There's a lot of TL;DR in this thread. I simply don't feel welcome at other websites. I've thought of myself as a newbie for a long time, but I've recently had to face the fact that while I may be a novice, I can't really call myself a newbie anymore. I don't even feel welcome at RMW, and I've tried to spend some time there. If we're talking about making this website geared to the "more professional" indie dev at the expense of being a great site for newbies, I totally agree with LockeZ, then.

I think what is happening is that by 'professionalism' people think it's mean 'paid games only' or 'serious developers only' or 'sweep out the plebes' or 'make everyone feel unwelcome' and nobody is saying that shit at all.

I think the big miscommunication here is that by 'professionalism' we (myself, and I presume voices like WIP, Soli, Darken, TFT) mean 1. Upgrade the site 2. Take ourselves more seriously because we all spend out valuable time here 3. Get more people to play better games 4. Get more people to make better games 5. Get more people excited about all of the above 6. Stop and reverse the drain of activity that is occuring on the site. We're not growing. We may just be declining, especially to sites like RMW that have actually cool shit happening. That is a problem.

If you're not cool with all of the above then yeah I don't know what to tell you.
unity
You're magical to me.
11129
author=Feldschlacht IV
I think what is happening is that by 'professionalism' people think it's mean 'paid games only' or 'serious developers only' or 'sweep out the plebes' or 'make everyone feel unwelcome' and nobody is saying that shit at all.

I think the big miscommunication here is that by 'professionalism' we (myself, and I presume voices like WIP, Soli, Darken, TFT) mean 1. Upgrade the site 2. Take ourselves more seriously because we all spend out valuable time here 3. Get more people to play better games 4. Get more people to make better games 5. Get more people excited about all of the above 6. Stop and reverse the drain of activity that is occuring on the site. We're not growing. We may just be declining, especially to sites like RMW that have actually cool shit happening. That is a problem.

If you're not cool with all of the above then yeah I don't know what to tell you.


Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I'm all for helping RMN grow and improving the website. Unfortunately, all I can really do is keep making games and being involved with the site as I don't have any knowledge of coding or marketing that I can contribute >.<;;;
pianotm
The TM is for Turtle Motivator
21412
Feldschlacht IV
I think the big miscommunication here is that by 'professionalism' we (myself, and I presume voices like WIP, Soli, Darken, TFT) mean 1. Upgrade the site 2. Take ourselves more seriously because we all spend out valuable time here 3. Get more people to play better games 4. Get more people to make better games 5. Get more people excited about all of the above 6. Stop and reverse the drain of activity that is occuring on the site. We're not growing. We may just be declining, especially to sites like RMW that have actually cool shit happening. That is a problem.


Oh, yeah, I can understand that.

Here's where I'm coming from. When I first came here, I was an absolute newbie. I don't even remember how I came across RPG Maker, but whatever it was, I had found a site by Don Miguel and I downloaded RPG Maker 2000 from it. This was sometime in 2013. After I came here, I learned about the other makers and found a copy of 2k3. Then I bought VX Ace in mid 2014.

I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't been for this site. The first place I found was RMW. It was completely intimidating. The forums were impersonal and uninviting. It's changed, but I still don't spend a lot of time there, because I feel very uncomfortable on that site. I didn't even get an account there until I PVG came out with the Wild Steam pack and I went gaga over it.

I've gotten better at game making. I've made a game (with Frogge) that's actually drawn positive attention. I' actually learning scripting. Not just making text games like the ridiculous stabs I took at C++ growing up: I'm actually learning how to do things in C#. I'm using Unity now. I am progressing as a game developer, and I exclusively thank this site. I wouldn't have done any of this without this site.

I would like to see this site replicate this experience with other newbies, and I'd like to see this site do a better job of it. However, I'm afraid, after having gone back and read through this, that much of the attention could turn away from that in any kind of an update for this site.
kentona
One of RMN's Top 10 Admins of all-time
20511
not likely, as my philosophy is more "encourage people and show people what can be done" rather than "get people to do more"
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=pianotm
I would like to see this site replicate this experience with other newbies, and I'd like to see this site do a better job of it. However, I'm afraid, after having gone back and read through this, that much of the attention could turn away from that in any kind of an update for this site.

The big question is: after "graduating" from RPG Maker, what purpose is RMN serving you? If it doesn't serve a purpose, do you then use it to hang out at and/or forget about it?

RMN can continually serve as an initial stepping stone into the world of game development. There's definitely something worthwhile with that. If it stays with that, what does it need on a technical level to excel at it? It's definitely not the hot spot of RM activity these days either.
Magi
Resident Terrapin
1028
author=WIP
I'm honestly leaning toward doing my own thing.

What is it you want to do?
pianotm
The TM is for Turtle Motivator
21412
WIP
The big question is: after "graduating" from RPG Maker, what purpose is RMN serving you? If it doesn't serve a purpose, do you then use it to hang out at and/or forget about it?

RMN can continually serve as an initial stepping stone into the world of game development. There's definitely something worthwhile with that. If it stays with that, what does it need on a technical level to excel at it? It's definitely not the hot spot of RM activity these days either.


Well, Why not expanding it? One thing I don't like is that this site has a bit of tunnel vision favoring RPG Maker. We can say we represent all engines, and we can find links to all of them on the engine page, but all any one sees when they come here is RPG Maker. It's like the other engines are shoved off into the corner. If we gave more attention to the other engines, that would probably go a long way to inviting more experienced developers who are too "grown up" for RMN.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4338
author=pianotm
LockeZ
Oh yeah I'm all for making it more user friendly and more intuitive and making playlists not suck and adding cool stuff and possibly burning user statuses to the ground. I just can't stand that people decided to use this thread as a platform to say that RMN sucks and is irrelevant and what it stands for is shit and that it should be replaced with a difference website that targets a different audience.
Oh, no. There's a lot of TL;DR in this thread. I simply don't feel welcome at other websites. I've thought of myself as a newbie for a long time, but I've recently had to face the fact that while I may be a novice, I can't really call myself a newbie anymore. I don't even feel welcome at RMW, and I've tried to spend some time there. If we're talking about making this website geared to the "more professional" indie dev at the expense of being a great site for newbies, I totally agree with LockeZ, then.
This is pretty much how I feel too. I dont feel welcome at other sites like I do RMN. Something about it feels entirely different, distant and cold. We really help eachother here, I feel that and so do a lot of others. I get responses to help problem in like an hour or MAYBE a day if that. Gamepages are awesome and you get a whole hell of a lot more comments, views downloads here, at least for me. It's a community of supportive people at the end of the day. I dont know if devolved past opinions are influencing thoughts here because I come to RMN every day and feel at home. That's just the truth for me.
Considering a lot of users here break post count records on a monthly basis compared to users on other boards that have years/decades of activity and don't even reach what we post in a month. I think that's pretty cool even if it's just bullshit posts sometimes. I like that cozy freedom.

I dont think RMN needs any drastic changes, maybe just improvements. I'm all for more light shed on the good side but I dont want to dismiss the "bad" or newbie either because that's the way we become what we are and get actual good games. We can fap to prodigies all day long but that's not most of us. This is a little bit more than a hobby for most of us. This isn't a weekend warrior place as so many try to paint it as.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
5314
Based on the last posts by FeldschlachtIV, LockeZ, pianotm and kentona, I think it's becoming more clear that it's probably possible to reach some sort of concensus here, which is great. The one thing we need to be aware of is what our highest priorities are - and it seems to me like most people want RMN to provide an environment where hobbyist game makers feel welcome and encouraged, while at the same time ensuring the services this site offers are easily accessible and high-quality thoughout. Fair enough.

The one remaining point I do not understand is this:
author=WIP
The big question is: after "graduating" from RPG Maker, what purpose is RMN serving you? If it doesn't serve a purpose, do you then use it to hang out at and/or forget about it?

I fail to see why this is a "big question." What makes you assume everyone is eventually going to "graduate" from RPG Maker? Would it be a bad thing if most users simply don't? Again, the reason why RMN works as a concept is because it provides room for hobbyist game devs. And that target demographic seems to constantly be forgotten and neglected by some people in this discussion, even though it makes RMN what it is.

Also, what's wrong with RMN being an enjoyable and mostly friendly "internet home" to hang out on and just have a good time? Isn't that one part of what games are fundamentally about as well? Accepting casualness as a part of the concept is not the same as sacrificing the entire site to it. People need space to develop, express and enjoy themselves, and if RMN can be that space even just to a relatively small number of people, I'd call that a huge accomplishment!

Regarding the alleged lack of activity, I haven't really seen it that way. But that's an extremely subjective statement. If RMN is apparently not a "hot spot" of RM activity any more, I see that as a reason to draw two conclusions:
Firstly, that we should try to connect and interact with other sites of similar interest more. There have been some collaborative activities between RMN and RMW, for instance. Why not try to do more of that?
And secondly, if we want to encourage more productivity and gain more attention for the creative output of the people on this site, we should build on its strengths. And I think what makes RMN especially worthwhile from a technical and organisational point of view is its gamepage system. Compared to other sites where published games disappear inside the forums or a flood of spam, RMN has a lot to offer in terms of visibility and methods of presentation. What can we do to make the most out of this potential?
Ciel
an aristocrat of rpgmaker culture
243
author=Feldschlacht IV
Games like Hero's Realm, Ara Fell, Dreaming Mary, and projects such as Shadows of Adam (these names are just the top of my head, not a comprehensive list) are the kinds of efforts I'd like to see RMN hold the torch for, games that people have veritably played and enjoyed.

There's absolutely nothing fundamental why RMN should be dismissed or not taken seriously, or a 'side thing', even for free hobbyist games. Taking it seriously doesn't have to mean changing our core philosophy, it first and foremost should mean just building, and building upon a better site and community.

I back this sentiment wholeheartedly. This site doesn't have to represent a breeding pool for projects regarded by a wider audience as RM trash or juvenile efforts which invariably are left by the wayside once one 'graduates' to something else. It could be the vanguard of exciting and quality indie RPGs which, could be made with RM or maybe not, that doesn't matter.

Ara Fell coming out and the potential of R3P in the future is exciting to me because I actually want interesting and inspiring RPGs in my existence. Engendering the creation of such, to me has always been the potential and promise of this site.

I felt RMN had that kind of ambition when it started and there's no reason it couldn't have it now
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
5314
Maybe I should make a more concise and straightforward statement:

Elitism is not the solution.

Encouraging promising, high-quality, semi-professional projects is not a bad idea. Dismissing the efforts of beginning, learning or simply casual developers however is a mistake. It would rob RMN of its base of existence. Trying to improve the site is great, denying people space because they are not ready to "advance" to a professional standard is not.
Magi
Resident Terrapin
1028
Nobody is talking about dismissing beginners and hobbyists though. This entire discussion has happened several times before on this site over the years and each time it comes up it spooks people away from taking things to the next level. Like it or not though, there is already a certain elitism that exists even here, but it's probably not what you are thinking of.

You can have it both ways, but in the end it's the cream that rises to the top, and that's a good thing. I think a good "base of existence" should consist not of just beginners, but outsiders, intermediates, and expert developers. A really well-rounded, diverse community is what flourishes and grows.
TFT
WHOA wow wow. two tails? that is a sexy idea...
366
i am not sure why you would want to try and salvage a website where the community is obviously content with it being in stasis.



author=Magi
author=WIP
I'm honestly leaning toward doing my own thing.
What is it you want to do?
Guy 1: "Hey, let's do the same thing we're doing now and be the same cool people, except better!"

Guy 2: "Nah we're good"
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4338
I feel RMN user base has upped its game in the past few years. It's gotten stronger and more creativity is abound. Rips are on the low and I'm sure if there was a graph or some numbers people are starting to aspire to commercial games compared to the past. It's a real thing now to sell your game here than it has ever been. And I'm not talking shitty steam games that never even see RMN, but real talent reaching out of the olden day rips games.

RMN does weed out trash, something steam doesn't do because we have such an active user base that shitty commercial games don't get far here. But things like Ara Fell get spotlighted and encouraged. I'm not sure "change" is the best word but we of course could do better. I dont think anyone is fighting that fact. A lot of us just don't want to see this site go the path of many others because we do have a good balance of fun and casualness but also a lot of cool games, events and talented developers. I like being more close knit than a place like GameJolt. I mean are we in competition or something? Because the majority of us do both and take advantage of both outlets.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
5314
@Magi:
It didn't sound that way based on what some people have uttered here so far. But if what you are saying should in fact turn out to be correct, and your idea of a well-rounded community turns out to be the actual aim of everyone else here as well... Then my previous statement has become superfluous and everyone should feel free to skip it.


@TFT:
First of all, the joke's on you because Pom is actually the big phenomenon that has gotten a lot of attraction from the "world outside of RMN." And even though that game is generally not very popular among RMN's community, it is as "relevant" as it gets.
Also, your example is off because Pom being on the Buzzing Games list has nothing to do with the community's activities, but with the way buzzscore is generated through downloads. Again, it's an outside force that is at work here, namely fans of a certain famous YouTuber. If anything, it's sign that some site mechanics and calculation methods need to be overhauled, but not a sign of "stasis" whatsoever.
And either way, why the destructive attitude? Most people here aren't averse to change on principle. The problem is that some of the demands for change voiced here would leave a lot of people out in the rain. And maybe that doesn't bother you, but it is of importance to some of us. Try to consider the needs of others for a moment as well, please.
Ciel
an aristocrat of rpgmaker culture
243
author=NeverSilent
Maybe I should make a more concise and straightforward statement:

Elitism is not the solution.

Encouraging promising, high-quality, semi-professional projects is not a bad idea. Dismissing the efforts of beginning, learning or simply casual developers however is a mistake. It would rob RMN of its base of existence. Trying to improve the site is great, denying people space because they are not ready to "advance" to a professional standard is not.

nobody wants to deny beginners space, but maybe they shouldn't receive the spotlight until they improve. and what a motivation to reach onward and upward! it's the natural order. i wrote several treatises and doctrines about this on here several years ago because i am a giant idiot