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Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751


Roles:
Town
Seer - Standard investigative role. Investigating someone will also tell what items they are holding at the end of the night. (stolen items of the thief will be detected on them the night they are stolen, but will then be dispersed the next day.)
White Mage - Standard doctor role. May not save the same person on consecutive turns.
Amateur Blacksmith - Creates shoddy shields and gives them to players. May also create a Vigilante's Sword if the existing one is destroyed.

Mafia
Assassin - 1 time mafia nightkill that does not reveal the role of the dead person and goes through all protection. Assassin must be alive for mafia to use this ability.
Thief - Attempts to steal an item each night. If he/she succeeds, the item does not work that night and the item gets dispersed to town the following day. is destroyed.
Black mage - Attempts to destroy items with destructive magic. Cannot target thief. Casts debilitating spells on town: 2 casts of slow, which delays a target's action by one day, and 1 casts of deceit, which makes a player flip as a role specified by the black mage when that player dies.

Items
Vigilante's sword - Person holding the sword may make a kill and then give the sword to someone else. If the sword is given to a mafia player, the mafia may use the sword kill in addition to their regular kill, but the sword will be randomly dispersed to town instead of traded regularly during the day.
Shoddy Shield - If a non assassination kill is attempted on a player with a shoddy shield, that player becomes wounded and will die at the end of the next day instead of immediately.

Night order:
-Blacksmith makes a shield (or sword) and gives it to someone
-The person holding the sword makes a kill, mafia makes a kill, white mage attempts to save someone
-Thief attempts to steal, Black mage attmepts to destroy
-Sword is traded to another player
-Seer investigates someone

Note: If a role dies before there turn in the queue they will still be able to use their ability. Deaths do not have any affect until the day phase.
Note 2: Wounded players cannot be lynched.

The item mechanic should make deception a large tactic for both town and mafia. Although town needs to work together, they can not reveal who has the item due to thief and black mage.

I'd like to get feedback on what you think might be unbalanced one way or the other before starting the game. Currently I'm considering removing the thief or black mage. A lot of this is subject to change as I'm sure there are scenarios I haven't thought about.

Players:
1. Kloe, the Haiku Prodigee
2. Pianotm
3. Ratty
4. Cap_H
5. Gourd_clae
6. LockeZ
7. InfectionFiles
8. TungermanU
9. Cap_H
10.Psy_Wombats
11.Yellow Magic
12.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
The night order is a bit off. Thief and Black Mage should take place before the kills.

I would also give the white mage, or a separate town role, the ability to save wounded players during day phase. It should be limited though. Maybe have a Knight with 1 or 2 bandages that stop bleeding. This does mean wounded players should be able to be lynched. In order for that not to influence the daylynch, you should then probably either extend the day by 24 hours when someone is saved, or make it so the bandage can only be used if the day's deadline is further than 24 hours off.

But I think the main problem is that the thief and black mage basically do the same thing. I would change the functionality of the black mage, or turn it into a normal goon.

I've found that mafia wins a lot of games, even the ones that are balanced well. I guess we all collectively suck at scumhunting. So aiding town a little is often a good thing.
Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751
I put it after so mafia can't just always target the same person with steal/destroy and kill to nullify them potentially having a shield.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
Jeroen_Sol
But I think the main problem is that the thief and black mage basically do the same thing. I would change the functionality of the black mage, or turn it into a normal goon.


HOW ABOUT:

Black Mage can cast either silence, sleep, or confusion on a town member: Silence: cannot vote for one day phase. Sleep: affected town can't participate for one day phase. Confusion: Vote can be redirected via RNG for one day phase. Each spell has a two day cooldown.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
Oh, it also takes shields?

In that case, the order should be:

-Thief steals sword if held by target
-All kills
-Thief steals Shield if held by target

piano, that could work, but it's pretty powerful. I'd make the spells 1-shot instead of giving them a 2-day cooldown. Although, with two deaths happening every night, that's probably the same thing anyway.
Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751
HOW ABOUT:

Black Mage can cast either silence, sleep, or confusion on a town member: Silence: cannot vote for one day phase. Sleep: affected town can't participate for one day phase. Confusion: Vote can be redirected via RNG for one day phase. Each spell has a two day cooldown.

If I did change it to this I would change thieves steal to item destruction. Question: What is silence's benefit over sleep?
Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
2236
That sounds cool! I can't see any problems, maybe some sort of town res, or other way to have it lean more for town, town keeps loosing... just make sure it still isn't too easy for town. Defo take out Black Mage/Theif, only one is needed, lols.
For alternate Mafia role, how about a role where they can make someone say something once per day, like they post what they want a certain person to say, and then the GM sends it to the person who must say it?

All in all, looks great Blob! Looking forward to it!
Definitely agree the mafia roles being redundant, piano's Idea is mostly good, Though I Think Silence and Sleep are too similar, I'd Replace either with Deceit(or Some Better Name)It makes someone Appear to be a different role color until you cast another spell.

Also, I wonder What inspired you to have a Balance Discussion, It Couldn't have been a Game with a crazy lack of balance where SK won... Could it ;)
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
author=Blobofgoo
If I did change it to this I would change thieves steal to item destruction. Question: What is silence's benefit over sleep?

Yes, I do agree destruction would work better.
In this setup, silence would have no benefit over sleep, but if all spells are 1-shot, it'll basically just be a weaker version of the same power. The scarcity of the spell would make sure it isn't trivialized.

But it is definitely very powerful still, perhaps overly so. Mafia could sit on the power until endgame and then win by nullifying a vote.
Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751
author=TangledLion
Also, I wonder What inspired you to have a Balance Discussion, It Couldn't have been a Game with a crazy lack of balance where SK won... Could it ;)

Yes. Speaking of SK, I generally think having SK is pointless as their chance of winning without a daykill power is almost 0.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
Blobofgoo
pianotm
HOW ABOUT:

Black Mage can cast either silence, sleep, or confusion on a town member: Silence: cannot vote for one day phase. Sleep: affected town can't participate for one day phase. Confusion: Vote can be redirected via RNG for one day phase. Each spell has a two day cooldown.
If I did change it to this I would change thieves steal to item destruction. Question: What is silence's benefit over sleep?


I would say, that silence stops the vote but doesn't prevent discussion on the thread. Sleep keeps the player off the thread so he can't participate: kind of like how someone silenced in FF can't cast spells, but can still attack.

Jeroen_Sol
piano, that could work, but it's pretty powerful. I'd make the spells 1-shot instead of giving them a 2-day cooldown. Although, with two deaths happening every night, that's probably the same thing anyway.


So, the spell effect already only lasts for one day phase: maybe only be allowed to use each spell once would help nerf it a bit.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
How about making it silence and berserk?

Silence: Player cannot talk but can vote.
Berserk: Player can talk but cannot vote.

Both of them should only be usable when at least 2 more town are alive than scum.
Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751
author=pianotm
I would say, that silence stops the vote but doesn't prevent discussion on the thread. Sleep keeps the player off the thread so he can't participate: kind of like how someone silenced in FF can't cast spells, but can still attack.


The way I'm interpreting it, Silence is no vote, Sleep is no vote + no activity, making Sleep superior
Well if there's a black mage casting status ailments everywhere, that white mage better know Esuna.

In all seriousness, when I get home tonight I'll write up a quick simulation of the rules as presented and run a few hundred thousand sample games haha. My only questions about implementing it would be:

- How does the blacksmith know if the sword has been destroyed?
- How much information is revealed in the passing of the sword? Does everyone in general know who has it? Does the person who received it know who passed it to them?
- What happens if the sword is passed to a player who dies during the night?
Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
2236
Yup, like that but Berserk for cannot talk, they have so much bloodlust, all they can do is vote for lynches... or maybe someone will find a way of communication via lynching?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If you plan on changing either the thief or the black mage, I'd actually change the thief, because I'm not sure how well the thief's ability will really work when 90% of the items she steals are shields. It doesn't make a lot of sense to steal multiple shields. Only one of them will do anything. And you don't really want to change it so the thief gets stronger the more shields she steals, because then she could become invincible.

A one-time-only stealing ability would solve this.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
From a lore perspective, I just find it odd that people who've been silenced can talk. Though that doesn't matter for the power, of course.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
Kloe
Yup, like that but Berserk for cannot talk, they have so much bloodlust, all they can do is vote for lynches... or maybe someone will find a way of communication via lynching?

Hey, that's a good idea. Instead of sleep, have him cast berserk, then all the player can do is vote.

The biggest problem I can see is that the black mage casting status ailments would almost certainly confirm the targets as town.
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
voting is one thing, but I don't really like the idea of an ability that just, removes someone from the game temporarily. thanks for signing up! goodbye!
Blobofgoo
Legs are a burden. Return to snek.
2751
author=psy_wombats
Well if there's a black mage casting status ailments everywhere, that white mage better know Esuna.

In all seriousness, when I get home tonight I'll write up a quick simulation of the rules as presented and run a few hundred thousand sample games haha. My only questions about implementing it would be:

- How does the blacksmith know if the sword has been destroyed?
- How much information is revealed in the passing of the sword? Does everyone in general know who has it? Does the person who received it know who passed it to them?
- What happens if the sword is passed to a player who dies during the night?

If the sword is destroyed it will be in the day post.

The only information revealed when trading an item is to the person who gets it. I will send a PM saying "You have been given the Vigilante's Sword". There will be no indication whether it was a random gift to you or a targeted gift.

If the player that is given the sword dies, the sword will be RNG'd to town, who will then get the standard item gift text.
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