CENSORSHIP

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I just had a game submission denied for being "deliberately offensive". Despite stating clearly that I don't find anything in my game offensive, nor is it intended to cause offense. It's a comedy game. They're jokes. When I put in the description that some might find it offensive, I was trying to think of all those precious snowflakes that might find it so.
I guess that's what I get for trying to be nice.

But this really isn't a rant to complain, I just want to know why I should have to play mind police for everyone, and can't/shouldn't use jokes or content in my games just because it MIGHT offend someone.

Why should any of us?

After all, once fair warning has been given, any reaction they have is self inflicted.
When did the act of policing become the job of the content creator, instead of the consumer?
Your game wasn't banned from the internet. Post it somewhere else.
Zeigfried_McBacon
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
3820
Yes, lets conveniently forget that this is a privately own website that doesn't have to accept your content, especially if it doesn't meet even the basic decency standards of said site.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3214
You have a right to make anything you want to, just like the site owners have the right to approve or deny anything they want to. It's their site to do with as they see fit, not a public service. No one's stopping you from putting it up on your own website.
And all three replies are strawman fallacies. Totally ignoring the issue I was bringing up.

@Pancaek Why should I have to? Why should one topic be taboo, but others just fine? A joke in another game "What has an arm and four legs? A pitbull on a playground." Apparently wasn't going too far.
But "Would you call a transexual mechanic your tranny tranny?" is. A pun. Even though the joke isn't even about the joke, it's about the reactions of the characters in the game to the joke. Which I explained to Liberty, which is a pretty ironic moniker given the subject.
Why is a joke about a dog tearing apart a child okay, but a bit of word play isn't? They're just words, and they're being used in jokes. Any perceived malice is entirely in your own head. Why should I be held responsible for your sense of humor, or lack of one? Why should anyone?

Or having a character called Faggot Cake. A double or triple pun on fairy cake, cakes of coke coal (pieces of coke coal are called faggots), and pork faggots (a dish so named because of the resemblance to coal). Beyond that it's just a silly name. He's also the healer of the group, a role usually given to female characters (the game is largely a parody/satire of RPGs), and several of his skills are Fairy Magic.

That's the point of this post, which you totally ignored. What is the line? Why is the content of any horror game, considering what most of them are about, more acceptable than puns that use "naughty" words?

@Zeigfried_McBacon I never said they had to do anything. What decency standards? Further, since you didn't personally know what the jokes were, or their context in the game, you're making ASSumptions.
Although that's really irrelevant. Since my post was about the nature of "being offensive" in the first place.
What makes the content of any given horror game more acceptable than mine? Why is it okay to maim, torture, murder, and destroy for the sake of deliberately causing fear, disgust and other negative feelings okay? All of which could be highly offensive. But some jokes that MIGHT upset someone aren't?

Obviously knowing that a horror game will do those things isn't the issue, I tried to give fair warning and I got punished for it.

McBacon. That could offend vegans.
Sailerius, your tag line "did someone say angels" along with that picture, could offend someone.

Practically anything can offend people these days. People go out of their way to get offended at things. It seems to be some people's hobby.

I doubt anyone would take some vegan getting "triggered" by McBacon, or any game with animals getting slaughtered and/or eaten, seriously here. Most people wouldn't even consider that those things could offend anyone.
So why is their offense lesser than that of people who can't take jokes about ANY subject matter?
author=acidhedz
@Zeigfried_McBacon I never said they had to do anything. What decency standards? Further, since you didn't personally know what the jokes were, or their context in the game, you're making ASSumptions.
Although that's really irrelevant. Since my post was about the nature of "being offensive" in the first place.

Obviously knowing that a horror game will do those things isn't the issue, I tried to give fair warning and I got punished for it.

McBacon. That could offend vegans.
Sailerius, your tag line "did someone say angels" along with that picture, could offend someone.

Practically anything can offend people these days. People go out of their way to get offended at things. It seems to be some people's hobby.

I doubt anyone would take some vegan getting "triggered" by McBacon, or any game with animals getting slaughtered and/or eaten, seriously here. Most people wouldn't even consider that those things could offend anyone.
So why is their offense lesser than that of people who can't take jokes about ANY subject matter?

You are assuming many things my friend, be wary of that and cool down for a minute (it seems you are still quite upset by that, pardon me if I'm off).

So your issue is that while many triggering subjects can be implemented in a horror game as long as they are pointed out and warned beforehand, they can't be in a comedy game?
That's fair enough, I'm sure it's frustrating that some things pass, while others do not. And it's definitely commendable that you were honest about what your game features (a few peeps have tried to dodge that and get their game through under false pretenses in the past).
Do be careful as you are have the idea of "generally" discussing censorship, while still comparing every point with your rejected game. You are not keeping the two topics separate, and so will people responding.

You would best ask Liberty, the queue keeper, about what this means exactly for this site's policy. There are general guidelines rather than 100% set rules so make sure you clear up what is happening. If those jokes really are just side dishes and all have clever puns at the bottom of them, I am sure you can find a way to have your game pass.

Now, just as some food for thought.
I think what the "deliberately offensive" in this context and comparison means, however, is very different. In a horror game all kinds of subject manner exist - like rape. And rape victims will likely find a poor handling thereof to be a problem - if they play them at all. But at the same time, in those games those injustice, prejudices, acts of violence etc. are portrayed predominantly negatively. Murder is bad.

In a comedy game, there is usually little evaluation of those jokes, on the contrary, they are a means of joy and fun as you laugh about them. In which case those issues are usually portrayed positively (talking about tranny jokes, there is also ways of satire to sarcastically point out the actual issues with things .. but that is done very rarely and seems to not be the case here. just as you rarely have intelligent handling of the subject in horror games).
Which means it might not even be the fact they are in it, but the fact they are shown as a good thing. In this case, insulting a specific group of people is good (a group that gets enough of shit already, too).

As for the game itself.
1.
Your game getting rejected does not mean people here would necessarily be offended by it, or only very few. Nor of "any" subject matter - hence why there are all kinds of jokes going on in titles etc!
That coal joke is actually really interesting (English is not my native language).
It does not mean they are necessarily fun or interesting, either, however.

The queue rules are here for a general quality control. That also includes games thay may appeal strongly to 5% of the playerbase but alienate everyone else. Curating is important especially for indie games (it's like how we just really see the big indie darlings make it into the spotlight, and how detrimental a flood like steam greenlight can be to finding games you actually want)

2.
People who are getting offended are usually not doing so deliberately. If a joke is made about your everyday life, reoccuring very often and used against you so very often it is only natural to be more receptive and sensitive towards them.
It just means that while most people do not have a personal relation to them, some do.
Those who do find it more important, naturally.
Does that justify getting mad and start screaming? No. Is it still okay to feel upset by it though? Yes. It's a feeling and what you do with it is the important part.

3.
However, this site is inclusive to different gender and sexual orientation. And those jokes are frankly overused and only stupid 90%+ of the time (hell, even major titles like Persona 3 had them just for "humor's" sake and I found it boring at best). Tranny and faggot jokes are against that principle if that is the main idea of humor in a game. Those are derogative terms by themselves and may go against the "don't be an ass" policy.
I agree it can be really tough to draw the line - and as others said before it - that line is simply drawn so we have it. Yours may be on edge, but it is something that is being looked out for.

Regardless of whether other things could potentially be "more offensive" or not, this is something that is simply looked out for while others may not be.
Also, the regulations used to be a little looser so it may also be that some games you came across wouldn't actually be approved now.

For the joke comparison .. I find the dog joke much better because frankly, you do not expect it. Having a violent dog is in that context, and the context we understand it (as dogs are generally seen as a companion and pet, and treated like that in media) does not say anything about dogs in general, either, or plays with our expectation thereof. I don't expect a dog to rip a child to pieces if I hear dog. My expectation is broken in a gruesome but different way, and that play with expectation makes it fun.

For tranny jokes .. - I am speaking about only all those I have seen myself - trannys are the joke themselves. Because, wow look at them, ugh. Or you call something tranny (as in "random insult" that may actually not be meant as an insult.. uh.. ok. Mentioning a word is not fun for me. Now - as you said for the ones used - it might be more. But I do not know the whole context. And because transgender characters are so incredibly rare if ever included at all (and then only for jokes, cmon), I personally would much rather see different jokes.

That's just my cents.
At the end of the day, the site is privately owned and will stamp the games they deem okay by their set of rules. Some are on edge, some are out.
author=Kylaila
...
That's just my cents.
At the end of the day, the site is privately owned and will stamp the games they deem okay by their set of rules. Some are on edge, some are out.

My issue is that any content is given special treatment, regardless of genre. Or that any potential offense is held up as worse as any other, when offense is subjective.
You take offense. It is not given.

Not every joke has a pun behind it, some people just like dark humor and "dirty" jokes. I don't feel a need to exclude anyone, and have low brow comedy right alongside stuff that can be extremely convoluted.

One of the first jokes in the game is that I'm in it. As the Gandalf-esque character that forces the main to go on the quest. I'm the game dev, so everything that happens in the game is my doing, and I'm also in the game forcing them to do it. It's a meta joke. Which I don't expect most people to get, but I still did it.
I also poke fun at myself, and the game its self, all through it.
There is a honest game trailers cameo in the game, doing a trailer for the game. Wherein I have them making fun of it.

I am not being deliberately offensive. Since that would be predicated on me caring that I offended anyone. I don't. You might not like it, but I decided a long time ago that I'm not responsible for what's in anyone's head but my own.

Tranny is also a term for a car transmission. It's a play on words.
The entire sequence is that I tell that joke, and the characters reply with "..." Staring at me. I then follow up with "When they get a sex change, do they go to a penis machinist?" (an old military slang term for a doctor, and a callback to mechanic). They continue to just stare. I then say "What?! The jokes are there! Someone has to tell them!" Then they walk away shaking their heads.
The context, which I explained, is that I (as the game dev) am trying to tell dark, messed up jokes, and the PCs keep trying to stop me. PC. Politically Correct. Player Character. Again, I am screwing around with words.

We are also talking about one area of the game, out of 9. A lot of the humor in the game is based on the PCs having conversations, or getting into arguments with me. A big portion of it is finding silly things in the environment.
Books of silly spells at the Inns for example. Like Pudding Wall and Divine Spell of the Syrup Demon. Or books like: A Peacetime Comparison of the Broadsword and Net.
NPCs like the Ramenmancer. He does magic noodles.
There are tons of references to various things. Every area has a different theme like Monty Python, 90s music, cartoons, etc. Which is its self a parody of how RPGs nearly always have each area themed.
The potentially offensive stuff is a pretty small fraction.

If Liberty had asked about that I would have said so, but he/she didn't. They just asked about what was offensive. I guess I should have just said, the only one who can make that call is you, since it's entirely subjective.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
I trust those moderating the queue more than I trust you. When you cross certain lines, you take a risk of not being accepted here. Go try GameJolt or Itch.io.
Marrend
Guardian of the Description Thread
21781
Personally speaking, I would not know about some of the word play that you are using without the helpful explanations. Also, isn't the fact that you feel inclined to explain your jokes indicate... something?

Hell, I dunno.
author=unity
I trust those moderating the queue more than I trust you. When you cross certain lines, you take a risk of not being accepted here. Go try GameJolt or Itch.io.


Appeal to authority fallacy. Appeal to outrage fallacy.
It's already on both of them, since it's a commercial game and wouldn't even be downloadable here.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=acidhedz
author=unity
I trust those moderating the queue more than I trust you. When you cross certain lines, you take a risk of not being accepted here. Go try GameJolt or Itch.io.
Appeal to authority fallacy. Appeal to outrage fallacy.
It's already on both of them, since it's a commercial game and wouldn't even be downloadable here.


Then there's no problem. People can play your game.

You don't even know what censorship means. Having standards isn't censoring anything. "Censorship" is just a buzzword to you that you think entitles you to something you do not in fact deserve. The fact that one website doesn't allow your game because it is deemed offensive is not censorship, it's just plain moderating content.
author=Marrend
Personally speaking, I would not know about some of the word play that you are using without the helpful explanations. Also, isn't the fact that you feel inclined to explain your jokes indicate... something?

Hell, I dunno.


That's your problem. I shouldn't have to restrict the depth of my work because most people are either stupid, ill educated, or simply don't pay attention.

I'm explaining it to make it clear that there is more going on, for those who are inclined to pay attention, than meets the eye.
I get what you're trying to say. I think that the responsibility to consume media responsibly, falls upon both creators and consumers equally. And in a perfect world it would suffice to properly label content and let people decide on their own. Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world, and most people want to either be told what to do, or hold control over others...

Obviously, there's a place for everything. You're not going to post porn in a kid-friendly website, for example. It would be pointless, if nothing else. But you'd think that a place ABOUT games, ABOUT creation, would have as few restrictions as possible. But apparently not. We live in a time in which people think words; mere compounds of letters; mere sounds coming from your larynx... equal hate. Because "reasons". So they're happy to stomp on that just to broadcast to the world how "good" they are.

Frankly, that's what gets me the most. How people here often moralizes the situation. Because sure, if you want to draw a line on the sand, you have every right to do so. Your toys, your rules, whatever. But you're still not the judge of what forms of expressions are more worthy than others; what forms of humor are funny or not; or who gets to enjoy them...

Funny how "play another game" does not work as well as "try another site" eh?
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
author=acidhedz
Or having a character called Faggot Cake. A double or triple pun on fairy cake, cakes of coke coal (pieces of coke coal are called faggots), and pork faggots (a dish so named because of the resemblance to coal). Beyond that it's just a silly name. He's also the healer of the group, a role usually given to female characters (the game is largely a parody/satire of RPGs), and several of his skills are Fairy Magic.

That's your problem. I shouldn't have to restrict the depth of my work because most people are either stupid, ill educated, or simply don't pay attention.

I'm explaining it to make it clear that there is more going on, for those who are inclined to pay attention, than meets the eye.


hahaha. nice 'troll' bro
author=unity
You don't even know what censorship means. Having standards isn't censoring anything. "Censorship" is just a buzzword to you that you think entitles you to something you do not in fact deserve. The fact that one website doesn't allow your game because it is deemed offensive is not censorship, it's just plain moderating content.


Yes, I do know what it means. Do you?
Who sets the standards? Why are you avoiding everything I've said about that? Why is it okay to murder, maim and destroy in a horror game. But using puns is off limits, just because the words being used might "trigger" someone?
Why is it okay to kill animals in a game? Some people find that offensive.
Anything can be offensive. So why should one thing, that clearly isn't malicious, be said to be going too far, when other things that some would consider just as bad or worse get a free pass?

I don't think I'm entitled to anything, except fair and equal consideration. Clearly that isn't happening, since there are any number of things on this site that could easily offend people. So I ask again, why is the wordplay in my game more offensive than say... McBacon Jam, a banner on the top of the page. That could easily offend vegetarians and vegans.

Aren't the people who use this site capable of making their own choices?
SunflowerGames
The most beautiful user on RMN!
13323

I would have to see the screen shots and game description to give any opinion of this.
You are free to make your game. You are free to distribute it to the world for free. We are free to say "No, we don't want this on the site."

Take it elsewhere and quit whining that choosing to use hate speech and deliberately-inflammatory language as a 'joke' means you got told no. Sorry, but the staff who saw the description and your PM decided a resounding no on allowing the game on the site.

Move on and share it elsewhere if you have an issue with that, but complaining here isn't going to change our minds.


I'm sorry, but when you have someone called Faggot Cakes next to a crew with names like Fuckface McPussy and Titties McBewbs, there's pretty much no real way to say with a straight face that you named that character after fairies and coal. Nevermind the jokes about transexuals or about Hitler killing people that you shared with me via PM... sorry, but those jokes are beyond what we allow.

Take it elsewhere because RMN does not want.
author=Liberty
You are free to make your game. You are free to distribute it to the world for free. We are free to say "No, we don't want this on the site."

Take it elsewhere and quit whining that choosing to use hate speech and deliberately-inflammatory language as a 'joke' means you got told no. Sorry, but the staff who saw the description and your PM decided a resounding no on allowing the game on the site.

Move on and share it elsewhere if you have an issue with that, but complaining here isn't going to change our minds.


Just Because Fallacy. The act of tyrants and all who demand to be held above criticism.

It isn't hate speech if it's not hateful. And "deliberately-inflammatory" is subjective to what someone finds inflammatory. ALL horror games are "deliberately-inflammatory".

It's also outright wrong. My intent is to make people laugh. Making people mad would be counter-productive to that. Just because something MIGHT have the opposite effect does not mean I intend it to.

Answer the questions. Why is it okay for the site to be "deliberately-inflammatory" towards vegans, animal lovers, etc with "McBacon Jam 3", but my word play is wrong?
Either they're just words, or they aren't.
Either you have a problem with things that are potentially offensive, or you don't.

Appeal to incredulity fallacy. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it untrue. PROVE IT.
Yes, they are silly names. The others are "That Guy", "Sidekick McNobody", and Who Cares".

It isn't a joke about transexuals, it's a joke about the WORDS. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it untrue.

The Hitler joke is also about the WORDS. Burning the Franks. Franks, as in Frankenfurters. Sausages. Hot dogs. Which is also a joke the PCs try to stop me telling. As in Politically Correct/Player Characters.
It's a good thing you've already shared all the jokes. Now you don't need to put the game up. Really all you're missing now is that link in one of your posts and you've effectively given your game more exposure than it would ever have gotten otherwise.
There's a huge difference between a game that makes jokes over transexuals getting sex changes and a horror story where a girl is preyed on by an evil man as part of her backstory.

One is deliberately slapping someone in the face with an insult towards their very state of being, making it out to be a joke and making them feel worthless.

The other provides backstory to a character and gives them depth and shows it as a negative, horrible thing to occur, condemning it as a vile act.

Your so-called 'joke' makes light of something that is horrible and if that's your personal cup of tea, that's fine, but I'm afraid we don't stock that brand here so you'll have to look for another cafe to drink it.

The fact that you're even trying to argue this point shows that you really have no concept of the difference and due to that I would definitely not trust you to know where to draw the line.

Sorry you're so upset over this but that's the final word. And as it is a private site, it is up to us to say what stays and goes so yeah, I guess it is kinda dictatorshipish but that's the same with every goddamn site that exists that has rules.

Go drink that particular brand of tea elsewhere. We'll be here when you want to share in tea that the rest of the cafe actually has in stock.
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