HOW ARE WE DOING? A SURVEY TO HELP US IMPROVE RMN

Posts

Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
2236
We have Slack AND Discord, both should be fairly simple to use and both have accounts which means you could have it set to "Remember me" and just open Slack or Discord whenever you wanna talk. Plus both have Desktop Clients and Smartphone Apps, it's pretty simple and fun!
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
Yeeeah, but they kinda suck. It would be better if RMN had its own thing in the site itself. That way it would be site wide and connected to your account.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Yeah, the fewer tabs I need open to keep track of communities, the more likely I'm gonna check in once in a while.

Like RN I follow the forums and statuses here, but I've not checked slack in forever, and I keep forgetting discord exists. If it's right the heck there, I'm infinitely more likely to pop in.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=Kloe
We have Slack AND Discord, both should be fairly simple to use and both have accounts which means you could have it set to "Remember me" and just open Slack or Discord whenever you wanna talk. Plus both have Desktop Clients and Smartphone Apps, it's pretty simple and fun!
It is stupid to have both of those and IRC. It's community fragmentation and a frictional process.

author=InfectionFiles
Yeeeah, but they kinda suck. It would be better if RMN had its own thing in the site itself. That way it would be site wide and connected to your account.
Doesn't need to be solely in-site, but here's the entire problem: all these chat areas are not linked.

Take the forum for example: it is the same regardless if you are on your phone, desktop, in Chrome, or Firefox. That is exactly how chat needs to be. Having three fucking real-time chat systems is a mess.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
Discord might as well be nonexistent to me and I don't like what Slack is and the people who dominated it when I used to go. It was either really chill or the far ass opposite.

These off site places are definitely something I think people should avoid and just stay here and post. (selfishly, I also don't like losing post count)
You might as well just be using Yahoo chat rooms, really. At least there you have a chance someone might message a picture of their junk to you. (gross surprises are fun!)
Had the same experience with Slack. And RMN Discord was .. alright? Haha, it was good when I wanted to call out a few peeps I see around the boards and caught them online but otherwise *shrug*
Lately one peep was kinda getting on my nerves so I threw Discord out. (I mean, I muted them, thank you very much but yknow, gotta keep your environment healthy n good as you can and it was a neutral sometimes fun place before and just something I didn't care about now)

It makes for their own groups n stuff tho. and that can be super fun for those involved so good for those who like the atmosphere.

That said, most "click here to chat things" tagged onto forums seem horribly not appealing to me. Because there's off-topic things already and it's really the "I am bored button", IIRC are that in general, but just in stronger.
So it just feels like I have no idea what is gonna be there, and chances are, nothing good is there haha. Rather than dropping by and seeing someone in discord or sth without it being a big deal..

but hmmm guess that just means I am not adventurous with that? Or just have my peeps? *shrug*
Who knows.

If a lot of people would like it, it'd be worth an experiemnt or close sth else down *shrug*
Not sure. Having too many avenues is a bad idea cause of the many-times-mentioned split.
Bigger question is, who will visit those chats? Who would like it? We all know a lot more people visit the site rather than the forums. But then they are likely there just for the games n not random chats.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
The problem with places like Slack is that it is very unmoderated 99% and has no bearing here. And because it's a chat that's fleeting people feel they can say things that have no permanence. If the chat were here and we all had the easy ability to view it, things said hold more prominence as they should, as they would in the forum. Even if abusive things do go unnoticed it wouldn't for long if your RMN account was attached to it. Because at some point it would be caught, and wouldn't be okay.

I'm not sure why to begin with that a site that wants more activity wants to send its users elsewhere to talk.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
author=InfectionFiles
It was either really chill or the far ass opposite.


Let's be clear; RMN is a community of mostly-introverted niche creative hobbyists enjoying an interest that very few of us share IRL. Any RMN chat is going to be like this. We're part 30-somethings, part high-schoolers who are participating in their first online society.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
The thing is there's a lot more consequence on a forum over a chat room. And that's not anti-chat talk here, it's that the "chat room" of RMN is offsite and has little bearing here.

Also, it's not the younger userbase that cause problems or long festering spite.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6280
As far as I can see, the big benefit of the forums, apart from adding a more casual element to the site that's also less focused on one single game at the time, is that it allows us to get to know each other's way of thinking. One of the great appeals of the small-scale hobbyist indie scene to me is that you can actually talk to and interact with developers and players personally, and in ways that don't always exclusively involve their current game projects.

The fact that many of us have made friends here on RMN is one part of that. But I can also say that a lot of times, I deliberately chose to take a closer look at someone's games precisely because I saw them post certain things on the forums that resonated with me. This can consist of a thoughtful contribution to a game design discussion, but also things like a clever observation, an interesting idea for a game in the early brainstorming phase, or even something silly such as a funny show of creativity and originality in a forum game.
All those different kinds of interaction have made me curious about what a person who thinks, talks or feels a certain way would make as far as games go. So I checked their profiles and projects, which I might never have done if I hadn't gotten to know them on the forums first.


What I do agree with is the complaints regarding fragmentation and the diappearance of useful material inside the depths of casual topics (What are you thinking about?), statuses, and various chat clients. I use Slack extremely rarely, yet the few times I was there, I noticed that quite often, discussions would pop up that would have made for a good actual thread here on RMN. Something that people could go back to later and get some value out of. A few times, people even asked for help with engine-related issues, and the replies they got could have benefitted more members that weren't so lucky as to be on Slack at that exact time.

Personally, I don't think it's bad to want to just shoot the breeze once in a while. And I don't believe there's anything to be gained from reducing the amount of options people have, for example by removing parts of the forum or discontinuing chats. If anything, that will just make people feel punished for using what is there, and become dissatisfied. Instead, we should try to come up with ways to incentivise using the different elements of the site itself more often and for their intended purpose. If we can make game pages, blogs, game images etc. more appealing and especially more visible than a quick Status, a post in a Welp topic or a little back and forth on Slack, then the different services RMN has to offer will hopefully start to get used more for what they are actually intended for.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Given some of the conversations in Welp, maybe people SHOULD be punished for using it :V

On a serious note, I am not sure how much more visible one can make gamepages, given that they are on the main page. Put in another sidebar on the Community page?

Come to think of it, it'd be cool to see a vertical sidebar of just new games as they come in. That would be p. neat.
author=Sooz
Given some of the conversations in Welp, maybe people SHOULD be punished for using it :V

On a serious note, I am not sure how much more visible one can make gamepages, given that they are on the main page. Put in another sidebar on the Community page?

Come to think of it, it'd be cool to see a vertical sidebar of just new games as they come in. That would be p. neat.

I was thinking something a little simpler - just a forum thread of latest gamepages where a bot would automatically post with a title, a link, a header image and a first paragraph of description whenever one is approved on the website. Would such a thing work? After all, while I can appreciate some of WIP's sentiments, changes should ultimately be based off what already exists, rather than the ideal we think should be. If blogs showing up on the forums seems to work (somewhat), why not just try this way of bridging the divide a little?

EDIT: Come to think of it, bots could also be made to fire off single-sentence alerts about new gamepages in both Slack and Discord, couldn't they? (I admit in advance to not knowing much about those, having never ventured on the former, and only joining the latter about a week ago.) As to whether those services could just be excised off RMN and replaced with an in-built chat system... I would just quote the following:

author=Kylaila
It makes for their own groups n stuff tho. and that can be super fun for those involved so good for those who like the atmosphere.

In my experience, people will just naturally gravitate to such smaller groups, especially as the overall membership grows, and the tendency won't disappear if the means to maintain group exclusivity are removed, but will simply find another outlet. One of the more prominent online communities I've been part of was on a much larger (Alexa rank <1000 as opposed to our 60-80k) non-user-run website, which had the equivalent of gamepages (though in a much different, commercial context) with their own subforums, as well several dedicated forums. What was actually happening is that much like here, the subforum activity was only limited to the classics and the recent releases. Meanwhile, the two main dedicated forums have formed wholly separate communities that didn't interact with each other unless they absolutely had to, or with the people on the subforums (which included me).

After the subforum activity began to get moderated to unusable hell (partly as a result of people I still like and consider friends, unfortunately), our group had first exploited a bug in the site's architecture to use an older version of subforums that was hidden from general use, but still functioned if you knew how to get there. Once that was patched, we didn't really integrate with either of the two forums, but were simply shunted off to a third, abandoned one, where we persisted for about a year before fleeing to a tiny off-site forum, which I still visit. (I suppose it's a bit like the #schmup story here, though I was rarely more than an observer any true drama.)

Anyway, my point is that there are people who like talking to as many people as possible and having their stuff seen by as many as possible, and there are people who want the semi-privacy through semi-obscurity, and who'll try to get it one way or another, so destroying already established channels won't do much besides alienating a few.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
author=WIP
Take the forum for example: it is the same regardless if you are on your phone, desktop, in Chrome, or Firefox. That is exactly how chat needs to be. Having three fucking real-time chat systems is a mess.

Honest question (and you're probs one of the best people to ask about this around here): How does one solve the problem of different parts of the user base having different preferences in terms of real-time chat systems? E.g. if we go with IRC-only, many users won't be happy about it.

Do we need a better singular system? Or should we make our own at this point (preferably one that connects to RMN profiles)?
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
I'm a nigh-worthless idea guy and have no concept of the technicalities involved in implementing such a thing, but we could probably fit a nice on-site chat widget in the extra space to the left or right of the forums. I have a small monitor and there are still 243 pixels of empty space between both margins. Imagine, if you will...an active site-wide chat that's present on every page. Collapsible for when you don't want to use it, having a general chat log that's always going (and a history of prior statements), and able to open/close specific conversations at a user's behest. People could click in and chat live at any time, and moderators could peak in to make sure things don't get out-of-hand.

From what I understand, this site is coded in the Python, which is the computer equivalent of Latin in terms of arcane language. Basically, I don't know how to do this, but the idea seems okay?!
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
Yes, Hali. Yes. That idea sounds perfect.

(technical side, I may as well explain heart surgery, because I have no idea)
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=NTC3
author=Sooz
Given some of the conversations in Welp, maybe people SHOULD be punished for using it :V

On a serious note, I am not sure how much more visible one can make gamepages, given that they are on the main page. Put in another sidebar on the Community page?

Come to think of it, it'd be cool to see a vertical sidebar of just new games as they come in. That would be p. neat.
I was thinking something a little simpler - just a forum thread of latest gamepages where a bot would automatically post with a title, a link, a header image and a first paragraph of description whenever one is approved on the website. Would such a thing work? After all, while I can appreciate some of WIP's sentiments, changes should ultimately be based off what already exists, rather than the ideal we think should be. If blogs showing up on the forums seems to work (somewhat), why not just try this way of bridging the divide a little?
The site already generates that list, so you're just duplicating work at that point. I don't understand how a forum topic with that same information would benefit.

author=NTC3
EDIT: Come to think of it, bots could also be made to fire off single-sentence alerts about new gamepages in both Slack and Discord, couldn't they? (I admit in advance to not knowing much about those, having never ventured on the former, and only joining the latter about a week ago.)
Slack bots definitely exist to do such a thing.

author=NTC3
As to whether those services could just be excised off RMN and replaced with an in-built chat system... I would just quote the following:

author=Kylaila
It makes for their own groups n stuff tho. and that can be super fun for those involved so good for those who like the atmosphere.

In my experience, people will just naturally gravitate to such smaller groups, especially as the overall membership grows, and the tendency won't disappear if the means to maintain group exclusivity are removed, but will simply find another outlet. One of the more prominent online communities I've been part of was on a much larger (Alexa rank <1000 as opposed to our 60-80k) non-user-run website, which had the equivalent of gamepages (though in a much different, commercial context) with their own subforums, as well several dedicated forums. What was actually happening is that much like here, the subforum activity was only limited to the classics and the recent releases. Meanwhile, the two main dedicated forums have formed wholly separate communities that didn't interact with each other unless they absolutely had to, or with the people on the subforums (which included me).

After the subforum activity began to get moderated to unusable hell (partly as a result of people I still like and consider friends, unfortunately), our group had first exploited a bug in the site's architecture to use an older version of subforums that was hidden from general use, but still functioned if you knew how to get there. Once that was patched, we didn't really integrate with either of the two forums, but were simply shunted off to a third, abandoned one, where we persisted for about a year before fleeing to a tiny off-site forum, which I still visit. (I suppose it's a bit like the #schmup story here, though I was rarely more than an observer any true drama.)

Anyway, my point is that there are people who like talking to as many people as possible and having their stuff seen by as many as possible, and there are people who want the semi-privacy through semi-obscurity, and who'll try to get it one way or another, so destroying already established channels won't do much besides alienating a few.
This is a bit of a different situation. You were caught using something you weren't supposed to be, because you wanted YOUR own private space. It was absolutely in that site's best interest to shut down that stuff; it's their site and bandwidth.

Now you're right that certain people will coalesce. But how much does the RMN platform have to help with that? It's up to the RMN staff to determine how the community interacts. But the more unique containers of interaction, the more fragmented it is as a whole.

author=Yellow Magic
author=WIP
Take the forum for example: it is the same regardless if you are on your phone, desktop, in Chrome, or Firefox. That is exactly how chat needs to be. Having three fucking real-time chat systems is a mess.
Honest question (and you're probs one of the best people to ask about this around here): How does one solve the problem of different parts of the user base having different preferences in terms of real-time chat systems? E.g. if we go with IRC-only, many users won't be happy about it.

Do we need a better singular system? Or should we make our own at this point (preferably one that connects to RMN profiles)?
To me, none of the current chat systems are ideal.
  • IRC: Difficult to get into, barebones, requires additional registration.
  • Slack: proprietary client, requires additional registration, invitation-only.
  • Discord: similar to Slack

The top choice would be whatever allows the least amount of friction to get into. RMN forums are fast and accessible: you register an RMN account, you can post. The problem with things like Slack and Discord is you cannot piggyback off RMN's existing authentication. Just about the only thing that can is IRC; it would need to be either something RMN can access via API or run in its entirety. You can then customize as necessary. And those old stalwarts that want to use an IRC client still can.
An in-site chat feature sound so nice! I like that idea, hali. ^.^ I think that fits most of the qualities WIP is looking for too? It would be easy to get into and requires no additional regsitration or invitation.

Even better if we get a new stat. Number of posts in live chat: Gourd: 999999999
InfectionFiles: -99999999 (bc I would win)
author=WIP
That still hinges on "there is no other way than forums", though. That's what I'm trying to get at. You don't need forums for community. Forever ago in IRC, #rm2k had a very strong community bond. But was entirely forum-less. It didn't need a forum and I'd wager it was a stronger community than most.

Why does RMN need a forum for community? Is there absolutely no other way to foster it?

How did people discover #rm2k, though? I found it through GW's and RMN's forums.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
author=Gourd_Clae
An in-site chat feature sound so nice! I like that idea, hali. ^.^ I think that fits most of the qualities WIP is looking for too? It would be easy to get into and requires no additional regsitration or invitation.

Even better if we get a new stat. Number of posts in live chat: Gourd: 999999999
InfectionFiles: -99999999 (bc I would win)
Gourd Claaaae!! *shakes fist at*

But, yes please. mmmmm easily obtainable stats
...what's #rm2k?


I was never into IRC at all (only got on there a few times - I'm not big on chatrooms), and I tend to use slack sometimes during the week (because the app is on my phone and I can use that to communicate with peeps outside of the forums, if need be). Otherwise, all my interactions are on the site - a part of which is the forums.

I'm sure there are a lot of people here who interact on the forums because they are forums and not chat-based sites or the like. Granted, the site could use an upgrade in areas, and adding an integrated chat feature would be nice, as long as it were also able to be accessible easily on mobile (for those who do like to chat whilst away from their computer).