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NOT SURE IF ANYONE'S NOTICED...
Posts
Trihan
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CloseI dunno about anyone else here, but if I release my game (it's never gonna happen, been working on it since 2001, but I can dream) and it turns out that the story is terrible or the gameplay has a fundamental flaw, you'd better believe I'll redesign it so it works.
author=GreatRedSpirit
I recommend never releasing anything that way nobody else can realize where you screwed up!
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
What I want to advocate for is getting stuff done right the first time. Nobody is saying that you can't go back and fix something, but in a professional environment (like the kind our buddy Deltree is going into), you've got serious moolah on the line. You can't look at what happened to Final Fantasy XIV and not cringe just a little. That game originally got a 4/10 and was deemed unplayable by some respected names. Square then had to turn everything around and create a brand new game from the ground up using the same name in order to eventually turn a profit. They had to convince people they were worth coming back to after their original project tanked.
You don't need that in your life.
Can you even comprehend how much work went into the first build that got that 4/10? How many long nights everyday employees had to work to meet their deadlines? I don't blame them for their work, I blame poor project management; I blame not being able to get it right the first time. And you know (you just know) some jack-off at the top thought these were good ideas.
You get one chance to make a splash and - unless you're a big name producer like Square that's able to throw mobile ports of existing titles out and lay a few people off to make up the money - that's a make-or-break situation to find yourself in. You can't afford to fuck up.
And why should we use the current technological advances as crutches for our own shortcomings? "I'll fix it later." isn't a smart way to skirt around the deadline, physical copies or not. "Why shouldn't we make the player install gigabytes of content to play the game they just bought?" Resident Evil 7. It's just bad design to leave the player waiting. They spent the money, they should get the best.
... but they're only going to get the best if the people behind the scenes know how to deliver. Nobody knows, nobody learns... so yes, I fully believe in critique, just the kind that happens before mistakes are made.
You don't need that in your life.
Can you even comprehend how much work went into the first build that got that 4/10? How many long nights everyday employees had to work to meet their deadlines? I don't blame them for their work, I blame poor project management; I blame not being able to get it right the first time. And you know (you just know) some jack-off at the top thought these were good ideas.
You get one chance to make a splash and - unless you're a big name producer like Square that's able to throw mobile ports of existing titles out and lay a few people off to make up the money - that's a make-or-break situation to find yourself in. You can't afford to fuck up.
And why should we use the current technological advances as crutches for our own shortcomings? "I'll fix it later." isn't a smart way to skirt around the deadline, physical copies or not. "Why shouldn't we make the player install gigabytes of content to play the game they just bought?" Resident Evil 7. It's just bad design to leave the player waiting. They spent the money, they should get the best.
... but they're only going to get the best if the people behind the scenes know how to deliver. Nobody knows, nobody learns... so yes, I fully believe in critique, just the kind that happens before mistakes are made.
Not to mention in that case, it is more something showing about the AAA industry as well. (I know it was cited as listening to feedback n all, and sometimes things do change in response)
Pushing out unfinished, inferior products to be out there, and patching them later simply because they can and people buy them (while also pushing preorders).
I wouldn't consider it good dev or business practice in the long run.
Tho a lot of games tho have updates and they can be lovely. Although they are more a premium extra
Pushing out unfinished, inferior products to be out there, and patching them later simply because they can and people buy them (while also pushing preorders).
I wouldn't consider it good dev or business practice in the long run.
Tho a lot of games tho have updates and they can be lovely. Although they are more a premium extra
NTC3
5625
Speaking on the whole topic of games being reworked post-release, there actually was an indie game which did this last year, somewhat successfully. It was called Slain!, it was a hardcore action platformer styled after metal albums, it got kickstarted back in 2013 (I think that was the year I saw it), and its original release last spring was a complete failure due to broken controls, balancing and such. However, the creator did manage to fix these by the end of the year, and re-release it as Slain: Back to Hell. Here are the Metacritic pages of both versions for comparison. The sales also weren't ultimately too bad, and he did manage to get a reputation for being hard-working and able to stick at changing a game and turn it around. He probably still dreams what could've been if he got it right the first time, of course, but it could've been much worse.
There were also the Enhanced Editions/Director's Cuts of the "New Golden Age" Kickstarter CRPGs - Shadowrun: Dragonfall, Divinity: Original Sin, Pillars of Eternity, and Wasteland 2, which often changed quite a lot as the result. Of course, all of these games were well-received in the first place, so it's a rather different matter (with the semi-exception of Wasteland 2, since it did disappoint a subset of its backers while being generally praised, and the Director's Cut did a decent job of addressing that.)
There were also the Enhanced Editions/Director's Cuts of the "New Golden Age" Kickstarter CRPGs - Shadowrun: Dragonfall, Divinity: Original Sin, Pillars of Eternity, and Wasteland 2, which often changed quite a lot as the result. Of course, all of these games were well-received in the first place, so it's a rather different matter (with the semi-exception of Wasteland 2, since it did disappoint a subset of its backers while being generally praised, and the Director's Cut did a decent job of addressing that.)
Sometimes, developers can't fix everything in time for their games' release date. Remember that there are humans working on this kind of projects. When it comes to today's games, a lot of work is required to guarantee a certain level of quality, and also a lot of money are spent in the process. There are tons of variables at play here, a lot of things that could prevent your development schedule from going the right direction all the way to the end. I don't know if... I'm managing to explain myself properly with my broken English.^^'
It's only natural that sometimes things can't be fixed in time. The "fix it later" mentality isn't necessarily a bad one. It's a sign of respect, an obligation towards your customers. That's why I've applauded the developers of games like The Witcher or the amazing Divinity Original Sin (great games) for releasing their Enhanced Editions.
I don't blame developers for releasing games that may be flawed, because no one is perfect, as long as they take their time to fix them with free patches in order to guarantee a good experience for their customers. That's respectful, something that every single game company should do.
NTC3 made some good examples over there.
It's only natural that sometimes things can't be fixed in time. The "fix it later" mentality isn't necessarily a bad one. It's a sign of respect, an obligation towards your customers. That's why I've applauded the developers of games like The Witcher or the amazing Divinity Original Sin (great games) for releasing their Enhanced Editions.
I don't blame developers for releasing games that may be flawed, because no one is perfect, as long as they take their time to fix them with free patches in order to guarantee a good experience for their customers. That's respectful, something that every single game company should do.
NTC3 made some good examples over there.
Great collection! I did hear about the Slain one, but not so much about the other ones.
It's a different matter for AAA vs indie titles I'd say : ) (given how many patches for blatant bugfixes n stuff are there haha). I guess I am more referring to stuff like this baby.
You'r right. So let me revise that, it can be a good thing, but I wouldn't always take it as a good sign for the industry as a whole.
I think Hyperdrifter was also reworked to support 60 fps which took a tremendous amount of work. Something to add to the list. It already was successful, but that's an honorable thing to do.
It's a different matter for AAA vs indie titles I'd say : ) (given how many patches for blatant bugfixes n stuff are there haha). I guess I am more referring to stuff like this baby.
You'r right. So let me revise that, it can be a good thing, but I wouldn't always take it as a good sign for the industry as a whole.
I think Hyperdrifter was also reworked to support 60 fps which took a tremendous amount of work. Something to add to the list. It already was successful, but that's an honorable thing to do.
Kaliesto
583
Over the years I've found that today's reviews for games have gotten to the point where there is too much opinion, and not enough fact.
The creator's gameplay, and art is good for someone else, but bad for another. Sometimes there can be a situation that gameplay/art can be factually bad (like literally no real effort, bugs, etc).
However these days I find reviews from GameFAQs/GameInformer/Metacritic/etc name your pick has been reaching the lines of poisoning the well by putting too much opinion, and not enough fact. For some reason Reviews can't seem to separate the two when reviewing a game when they do their scoring.
Like say you didn't like the gameplay, and based your scoring on that, but it was still solid for other people that prefer that style because it was not broken, and functioned as intended.
The creator's gameplay, and art is good for someone else, but bad for another. Sometimes there can be a situation that gameplay/art can be factually bad (like literally no real effort, bugs, etc).
However these days I find reviews from GameFAQs/GameInformer/Metacritic/etc name your pick has been reaching the lines of poisoning the well by putting too much opinion, and not enough fact. For some reason Reviews can't seem to separate the two when reviewing a game when they do their scoring.
Like say you didn't like the gameplay, and based your scoring on that, but it was still solid for other people that prefer that style because it was not broken, and functioned as intended.
author=Trihan
I dunno about anyone else here, but if I release my game (it's never gonna happen, been working on it since 2001, but I can dream) and it turns out that the story is terrible or the gameplay has a fundamental flaw, you'd better believe I'll redesign it so it works.
One of the driving forces behind my decision to make Soma Spirits Rebalance was to address the major issues that people found with the game. Heck, the title is even called Rebalance; one of the largest parts of the undertaking.
Whenever you get a piece of constructive feedback, you're not necessarily obligated to agree with it. But I think it's important that developers at least listen to what people are saying, think about it critically, and determine whether or not the proposed change will be beneficial to you. I can see one person telling you something is off as little cause for alarm, but when 20+ people told me my game was a cakewalk, I took it to heart and wanted to make the game better.
QZProductions
2421
author=SgtMettoolauthor=TrihanOne of the driving forces behind my decision to make Soma Spirits Rebalance was to address the major issues that people found with the game. Heck, the title is even called Rebalance; one of the largest parts of the undertaking.
I dunno about anyone else here, but if I release my game (it's never gonna happen, been working on it since 2001, but I can dream) and it turns out that the story is terrible or the gameplay has a fundamental flaw, you'd better believe I'll redesign it so it works.
Whenever you get a piece of constructive feedback, you're not necessarily obligated to agree with it. But I think it's important that developers at least listen to what people are saying, think about it critically, and determine whether or not the proposed change will be beneficial to you. I can see one person telling you something is off as little cause for alarm, but when 20+ people told me my game was a cakewalk, I took it to heart and wanted to make the game better.
I actually made a survey with Google Forms for Prom Dreams, and the most consistent feedback I got was that people really liked the stroy and characters but found the visuals lacking. Thanks to this survey I'm deciding to commission art from people much better than I am at arting (Prom Dreams' visuals were mostly generator parts and CC0 stock images cobbled together). I also took into account several problems I noticed LPers consistently get into or comment on (e.g. picking choices too quickly thanks to button mashing, maneuverability inside the school, etc.) and added them to updates.
I also got one person complaining about the villain not doing anything to fix what they did and that because of the demographic they were a part of deserved a redemption arc, or something like that. Which was... clearly missing the point that said villain made an irreparable mistake that they will never truly be absolved of, regardless of their sympathetic circumstances. That critique I ignored, because most everyone else seemed to get it :P
All this to say that you can use your judgment to pick and choose which critiques to act on, because you can't please everybody, that's for sure :P
Davenport
5200
Many adolescents tend to have good and bad experiences in life.
Committing suicide is never the best option.
Committing suicide is never the best option.
author=Davenporthaha what
Many adolescents tend to have good and bad experiences in life.
Committing suicide is never the best option.
Edit: Thanks liberty!
Oh. What.
Well I can't believe that my dumb LP is responsible for this. At worst I was frank about the fact that the GUI and combat system is confusing and thrown at you very fast. But what's the point of putting out a demo except to get feedback?
You know what's worse than critical feedback? No feedback.
It should be said that the reason I did it at all is of course because I respect Deltree's work and I think he's great and I wanted to help with the beta testing process.
Well I can't believe that my dumb LP is responsible for this. At worst I was frank about the fact that the GUI and combat system is confusing and thrown at you very fast. But what's the point of putting out a demo except to get feedback?
You know what's worse than critical feedback? No feedback.
It should be said that the reason I did it at all is of course because I respect Deltree's work and I think he's great and I wanted to help with the beta testing process.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I think we should start a petition to get Deltree back here before it's too late, and preface it by saying "we were wrong". 50 signatures should be enough to prove we're sorry. Hemorrhaging talent over "critical feedback" isn't what this place needs.
"doesn't live here anymore" looks worse on us than him because it says there's something wrong with this place and starting a thread in the most visible section of the forum to say "what da fuck, man?!" only solidifies that. A status update is bad enough.
"doesn't live here anymore" looks worse on us than him because it says there's something wrong with this place and starting a thread in the most visible section of the forum to say "what da fuck, man?!" only solidifies that. A status update is bad enough.
Merlandese
3235
I wondered why the updates stopped. I think he stopped following me on Twitter (or I just imagined he did).
So long as the games get done and you make a neat gun.
EDIT: #LastToTheParty
So long as the games get done and you make a neat gun.
EDIT: #LastToTheParty
There is a considerable difference between professional/commercial game development and what mostly goes on here. Professional situations demand deadlines and money to keep lights on. You do not have eternity to fine-tune a game.
