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DUET SYSTEM -- HELP ME DESIGN ABILITY COMBOS!
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JosephSeraph
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CloseHey! I'm working on a short new game named Duel SaGa (gamepage impending, as the name suggests it is a homage to the SaGa series, albeit with fully customeverything except music)
The custom battle system focuses on the two protagonists, Levin and Noah, and their ability to chain abilities together or even combo them into an unique one.
There are two main ways in which abilities interact with eachother:
-Chain: The first spell gives their After traits to the second spell, whose effect is changed based on its Inherit traits.
-Combo: Traits are completely ignored and a new spell is executed in both other spells' places.
The characters always act together (so there's no SPD stat), the order being defined by their battle order (which can be freely swapped anytime in battle)
What I need help with, and would love to implement your neat ideas, is in coming up with nice skills that make good use of this system! <3
Instead of MP the game uses an AP system -- you can have upto 5 ap regaining one per turn.
There are 6 ability types:
-Basic -- they perform very basic functions like guarding against attacks, light healing or charging up AP. They cost no AP and are very useful when paired with other spells to spread their effects with little AP cost.
-Weapon -- They cost HP and have no after traits, but are very useful at inheriting traits from white and black magics.
-White magic -- heals, buffs, costs AP and mixes with itself, weapon or basic skills.
-Black Magic -- damages, debuffs, costs AP and mixes with itself, weapon or basic skills.
-Forbidden Magic -- unusual, powerful and high AP costing skills that significantly change the tide of the battle. They can't mix with other skills.
-Combo magic -- the result of sucessful spell combinations.
Here's the current ability list (which I feel is very standard and not very creative)
Hopefully this is an interesting setup! Hope to turn it into something good! : D
The custom battle system focuses on the two protagonists, Levin and Noah, and their ability to chain abilities together or even combo them into an unique one.
There are two main ways in which abilities interact with eachother:
-Chain: The first spell gives their After traits to the second spell, whose effect is changed based on its Inherit traits.
-Combo: Traits are completely ignored and a new spell is executed in both other spells' places.
The characters always act together (so there's no SPD stat), the order being defined by their battle order (which can be freely swapped anytime in battle)
What I need help with, and would love to implement your neat ideas, is in coming up with nice skills that make good use of this system! <3
Instead of MP the game uses an AP system -- you can have upto 5 ap regaining one per turn.
There are 6 ability types:
-Basic -- they perform very basic functions like guarding against attacks, light healing or charging up AP. They cost no AP and are very useful when paired with other spells to spread their effects with little AP cost.
-Weapon -- They cost HP and have no after traits, but are very useful at inheriting traits from white and black magics.
-White magic -- heals, buffs, costs AP and mixes with itself, weapon or basic skills.
-Black Magic -- damages, debuffs, costs AP and mixes with itself, weapon or basic skills.
-Forbidden Magic -- unusual, powerful and high AP costing skills that significantly change the tide of the battle. They can't mix with other skills.
-Combo magic -- the result of sucessful spell combinations.
Here's the current ability list (which I feel is very standard and not very creative)
Hide
Basic Ability:
01. Provoke:
Calls attention of enemies for one turn.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
02. Guard:
Cuts damage received by 50% for one turn.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Strong/Self.
(Guard + Guard = MightyGuard)
03. Cheer:
Raises party's ATK, DEF & INT very slightly for the remainder of the battle.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/Party
04. Pray:
Heals party's HP by 20% of the missing health.
After Effect: Healing (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Party
05. Focus:
First ability next turn will deal double damage. Take increased damage next turn.
After Effect: Strengthen
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
06. Charge:
Sacrifice half HP to earn an extra AP.
After Effect: Charge
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
Weapon Ability:
Common:
01. Slash:
Deals physical damage to a single foe.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. DoubleCut (24 HP)
Attack an enemy twice, each attack dealing 75% of the damage.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target (twice)
03. Featherstrike (30 HP)
Attacks an enemy, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target
04. Windslash (48 HP)
Damages all enemies, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Receive Effect: Small/All Enemies
Levin:
06. CautionBlade (24HP)
Attacks an enemy, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Guards to reduce 25% of incoming damage afterwards.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
07. FabulousBlade (48HP)
Deals 4 random hits at random enemies, each dealing 50% of a
normal attack.
Enemies are likely to target Levin this turn.
Receive Effect: Small / Single Target
08. BlessedBlade (80HP)
Deals very high Dark-elemental damage to one enemy.
Combos with many white magic spells to create status inducing spells
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
09. Parley (48 HP)
Deals half damage to an enemy, prevent them from acting next turn.
Noah:
11. WickedSword (80HP)
Deals very high damage to one enemy.
(combos with black magic to create various status-inducing abilities)
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
12. MowDown (80HP)
Deals variable damage to one enemy, potentially enormous.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
13. ChannelingSword (120 HP)
Deals normal damage against one enemy.
Receive Effect: Very high/Single Target
White Magic
01. HealingStar (2AP)
Heals a single ally.
After Effect: Heal (small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. HealingWord (2AP)
Heals all allies.
After Effect: Heal (small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
03. Regen (3AP)
Gradually restores health.
After Effect: Heal (small) (status effect: regen)
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target.
04. Protect (3AP)
Halves physical damage taken.
After Effect: (status effect: Protect)
Receive Effect: Normal / Single Target.
(Protect + Attack = Armor Break)
05. Shell (3AP)
Halves magical damage taken.
After Effect: (status effect: Shell)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
(Shell + Attack = Mental Break)
06. Esuna (3AP)
Removes negative status effects.
After Effect: Esuna
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target
(Esuna + Attack = Cursed Blade)
07. Reincarnate (4AP)
Fully heals an ally, even when reviving.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: None
(Regen + Reincarnate = Angelica)
08. Blink (2AP)
Target evades the next two attacks.
After Effect: Blink (0-1-2 charges depending on strength of Receive Effect of next spell)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
09. Bravery (2AP)
Increases damage dealt by 25%.
After Effect: Cheer
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
10.
Black Magic
01. MagicMissile (1AP)
Deals small damage to a single foe.
Hits twice.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
01. Scorch (2AP):
Deals small Fire damage to a single foe.
After Effect: Damage. (Fire) (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. Frost (2AP):
Deals small Ice damage to a single foe.
No variance.
After effect: Damage. (Ice) (Small)
Receive effect: Normal/Single Target.
(Scorch + Frost = Antipode)
03. Jolt (2AP)
Deals small Thunder damage to a single foe.
High variance.
After effect: Damage. (thunder) (Small)
Receive effect: Normal/Single target.
(Frost + Jolt = Hydroshock)
04. SilverWind (2AP)
Deals small Wind damage to all foes.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/All Enemies.
(Scorch + SilverWind = FireTornado)
05. Virus (2AP)
Deals medium damage to a single foe.
Inflicts Poison.
After Effect: Damage. (Status: Poison)
Normal/Single target.
(Frost + Virus = VirulentBlue )
06. Drain (2AP)
Deals medium damage to a single foe.
Heals for at least 1/4 of the damage dealt.
After Effect: Drain. (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single target.
07. Mjollnir (3AP)
Deals high thunder damage to a single foe.
High chance of Paralysis.
After Effect: Damage. (thunder) (medium) (status: paralysis)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single target.
08. Death (4AP)
Deals high damage to a single foe.
20-80% chance of instant death.
After Effect: Damage. (medium) (effect: 1HKO)
Receive Effect: Weak/Single Target.
09. Flare (4AP)
Deals extreme damage to a single foe.
After Effect: Damage. (high)
Receive Effect: none.
10. Ultima (5AP)
Deals high damage to all foes.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: High / All foes.
Forbidden Magic
1. Bolster (3AP)
Nothing.
After Effect: Bolster (Increases the next spell's effect x3-5, depending on Receive Effect.)
2. Overclock (5AP)
Party gets a second turn.
3. Giga Flare (?AP)
Deals high damage, increased by the amount of AP left for both characters and how damaged they are.
Combo Magic:
Antipode: (Scorch + Freeze)
Deals high Ice and Fire elemental damage to one foe.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
HydroShock: (Freeze + Jolt)
Deals high Thunder and Water elemental damage to one foe.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
Angelica: (Regen + Ressurect)
Fully heals an ally and bestows Regen + Auto-Life.
VirulentBlue (Virus + Freeze)
Deals high damage to one foe, inflicting Poison.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
UnholySword (Ressurect + WickedSword)
Deals extremely high dark-elemental damage to one foe.
A few interesting combos:
Charge + Pray will play out as follows:
-Party receives 1 Ap from turn
-Char A receives 1 Ap and loses 50% HP
-Party recovers 20% HP and receives 1 AP
This is a great combo that will result in accruing 3 AP in a single turn for character A, but leaving them vulnerable in the meanwhile.
Flare + Ultima (very AP intensive and not a combo spell) will play out as follows:
-Flare deals extreme damage to one foe and set up its effects to be inherited.
-Ultima deals extreme damage to all foes.
-Ultima inherits Flare's effects and deals damage to all foes again.
Basic Ability:
01. Provoke:
Calls attention of enemies for one turn.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
02. Guard:
Cuts damage received by 50% for one turn.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Strong/Self.
(Guard + Guard = MightyGuard)
03. Cheer:
Raises party's ATK, DEF & INT very slightly for the remainder of the battle.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/Party
04. Pray:
Heals party's HP by 20% of the missing health.
After Effect: Healing (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Party
05. Focus:
First ability next turn will deal double damage. Take increased damage next turn.
After Effect: Strengthen
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
06. Charge:
Sacrifice half HP to earn an extra AP.
After Effect: Charge
Receive Effect: Strong/Self
Weapon Ability:
Common:
01. Slash:
Deals physical damage to a single foe.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. DoubleCut (24 HP)
Attack an enemy twice, each attack dealing 75% of the damage.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target (twice)
03. Featherstrike (30 HP)
Attacks an enemy, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target
04. Windslash (48 HP)
Damages all enemies, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Receive Effect: Small/All Enemies
Levin:
06. CautionBlade (24HP)
Attacks an enemy, dealing 80% of a normal attack.
Guards to reduce 25% of incoming damage afterwards.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
07. FabulousBlade (48HP)
Deals 4 random hits at random enemies, each dealing 50% of a
normal attack.
Enemies are likely to target Levin this turn.
Receive Effect: Small / Single Target
08. BlessedBlade (80HP)
Deals very high Dark-elemental damage to one enemy.
Combos with many white magic spells to create status inducing spells
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
09. Parley (48 HP)
Deals half damage to an enemy, prevent them from acting next turn.
Noah:
11. WickedSword (80HP)
Deals very high damage to one enemy.
(combos with black magic to create various status-inducing abilities)
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
12. MowDown (80HP)
Deals variable damage to one enemy, potentially enormous.
Receive Effect: Medium/Single Target
13. ChannelingSword (120 HP)
Deals normal damage against one enemy.
Receive Effect: Very high/Single Target
White Magic
01. HealingStar (2AP)
Heals a single ally.
After Effect: Heal (small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. HealingWord (2AP)
Heals all allies.
After Effect: Heal (small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
03. Regen (3AP)
Gradually restores health.
After Effect: Heal (small) (status effect: regen)
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target.
04. Protect (3AP)
Halves physical damage taken.
After Effect: (status effect: Protect)
Receive Effect: Normal / Single Target.
(Protect + Attack = Armor Break)
05. Shell (3AP)
Halves magical damage taken.
After Effect: (status effect: Shell)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
(Shell + Attack = Mental Break)
06. Esuna (3AP)
Removes negative status effects.
After Effect: Esuna
Receive Effect: Strong/Single Target
(Esuna + Attack = Cursed Blade)
07. Reincarnate (4AP)
Fully heals an ally, even when reviving.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: None
(Regen + Reincarnate = Angelica)
08. Blink (2AP)
Target evades the next two attacks.
After Effect: Blink (0-1-2 charges depending on strength of Receive Effect of next spell)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
09. Bravery (2AP)
Increases damage dealt by 25%.
After Effect: Cheer
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
10.
Black Magic
01. MagicMissile (1AP)
Deals small damage to a single foe.
Hits twice.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target
01. Scorch (2AP):
Deals small Fire damage to a single foe.
After Effect: Damage. (Fire) (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single Target.
02. Frost (2AP):
Deals small Ice damage to a single foe.
No variance.
After effect: Damage. (Ice) (Small)
Receive effect: Normal/Single Target.
(Scorch + Frost = Antipode)
03. Jolt (2AP)
Deals small Thunder damage to a single foe.
High variance.
After effect: Damage. (thunder) (Small)
Receive effect: Normal/Single target.
(Frost + Jolt = Hydroshock)
04. SilverWind (2AP)
Deals small Wind damage to all foes.
After Effect: N/A
Receive Effect: Normal/All Enemies.
(Scorch + SilverWind = FireTornado)
05. Virus (2AP)
Deals medium damage to a single foe.
Inflicts Poison.
After Effect: Damage. (Status: Poison)
Normal/Single target.
(Frost + Virus = VirulentBlue )
06. Drain (2AP)
Deals medium damage to a single foe.
Heals for at least 1/4 of the damage dealt.
After Effect: Drain. (Small)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single target.
07. Mjollnir (3AP)
Deals high thunder damage to a single foe.
High chance of Paralysis.
After Effect: Damage. (thunder) (medium) (status: paralysis)
Receive Effect: Normal/Single target.
08. Death (4AP)
Deals high damage to a single foe.
20-80% chance of instant death.
After Effect: Damage. (medium) (effect: 1HKO)
Receive Effect: Weak/Single Target.
09. Flare (4AP)
Deals extreme damage to a single foe.
After Effect: Damage. (high)
Receive Effect: none.
10. Ultima (5AP)
Deals high damage to all foes.
After Effect: None
Receive Effect: High / All foes.
Forbidden Magic
1. Bolster (3AP)
Nothing.
After Effect: Bolster (Increases the next spell's effect x3-5, depending on Receive Effect.)
2. Overclock (5AP)
Party gets a second turn.
3. Giga Flare (?AP)
Deals high damage, increased by the amount of AP left for both characters and how damaged they are.
Combo Magic:
Antipode: (Scorch + Freeze)
Deals high Ice and Fire elemental damage to one foe.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
HydroShock: (Freeze + Jolt)
Deals high Thunder and Water elemental damage to one foe.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
Angelica: (Regen + Ressurect)
Fully heals an ally and bestows Regen + Auto-Life.
VirulentBlue (Virus + Freeze)
Deals high damage to one foe, inflicting Poison.
2x the combined totals of the spell.
UnholySword (Ressurect + WickedSword)
Deals extremely high dark-elemental damage to one foe.
A few interesting combos:
Charge + Pray will play out as follows:
-Party receives 1 Ap from turn
-Char A receives 1 Ap and loses 50% HP
-Party recovers 20% HP and receives 1 AP
This is a great combo that will result in accruing 3 AP in a single turn for character A, but leaving them vulnerable in the meanwhile.
Flare + Ultima (very AP intensive and not a combo spell) will play out as follows:
-Flare deals extreme damage to one foe and set up its effects to be inherited.
-Ultima deals extreme damage to all foes.
-Ultima inherits Flare's effects and deals damage to all foes again.
Hopefully this is an interesting setup! Hope to turn it into something good! : D
As I mentioned before, this is an awesome idea and lends itself to a bunch of creative possibilities. Interastingly, the role system of FFXIII comes to mind a little bit when I think of cool possibilities here, and I think I can mine that system for some pretty cool concepts. I'll let you know on the fly when I think of cool combos!
Thanks!!! And yeah there's a lot of possibilities of different roles for the characters as well! Since spells are equippable and combo spells' results always come from the second caster's stats its entirely possible to have the first character be a tank sort of character, while the second be a full glass cannon -- with the tradeoff that switching places in battle can be dangerous (since the first character takes a bit more damage) , and so on! hopefully it'll be dynamic and nice : D
psy_wombats
13315
It might be worth taking a step back and considering what about the system is supposed to be fun. I think in industry it's called "user stories" or something, but for example when bob_esc and I were working on SaGa4's battle design we tried to pull out microstories of what the player would find fun... stuff like "my human oneshotted that beefy monster via status weakness" "my mutant hypno'd the hp-tank slot3 monster while everyone else killed the real threats", "I finally grinded enough to get an SMG," and "10 of the same FLY enemy showed up and I slaughtered them all at once with the SMG."
Unless you've got something like that in mind it's hard to know what you're looking for in individual mechanics. If it's supposed to be fun to use combos in a tactical way, that should influence how you design both enemy encounters and combos. Like you'd want to design combos such that there's a specific problem they're trying to solve so you get one of those stories about it. In what situations would there be a more optimal option than spamming Antipode over and over if it's the best damage per AP? Or why bother with any target-all spells when there's a target-all basic?
Basically I think you should be looking at overall encounter design rather than skill design, because it sounds like this system gives tons and tons of options and there should be some incentive to take advantage of them.
Unless you've got something like that in mind it's hard to know what you're looking for in individual mechanics. If it's supposed to be fun to use combos in a tactical way, that should influence how you design both enemy encounters and combos. Like you'd want to design combos such that there's a specific problem they're trying to solve so you get one of those stories about it. In what situations would there be a more optimal option than spamming Antipode over and over if it's the best damage per AP? Or why bother with any target-all spells when there's a target-all basic?
Basically I think you should be looking at overall encounter design rather than skill design, because it sounds like this system gives tons and tons of options and there should be some incentive to take advantage of them.
Fayte
0
Unfortunately I don't have any ideas off the top of my head right now -- I just read your thread and I think this is a phenomenal system you have here and I'm VERY excited to see where you take it! Keep up the good work!
Thanksssss guyss!~ I'm very excited about this project to be honest!
I... don't know if I should devote my time to a noncommercial project at this point, but if I waste my time pondering I get nothing done so off with it XD
@psy_wombats' commentary has enlightened me! Thanks so much for the insight. I'm going to write an emotional walkthrough from the player's perspective, highlighting the sensations the game's supposed to give -- i usually do this but I skimped over it this time due to being so excited at eventing with DYNRPG XDDD
Its nice to have a place to start! <3
I... don't know if I should devote my time to a noncommercial project at this point, but if I waste my time pondering I get nothing done so off with it XD
@psy_wombats' commentary has enlightened me! Thanks so much for the insight. I'm going to write an emotional walkthrough from the player's perspective, highlighting the sensations the game's supposed to give -- i usually do this but I skimped over it this time due to being so excited at eventing with DYNRPG XDDD
Its nice to have a place to start! <3
Two things I learned from making a turn-based game with only two characters:
1. Because you have fewer party members, each action they take has to be more meaningful than if you had three or four. For example, a skill that buffs two stats instead of one may end up being a more meaningful choice to implement for the lack of inputs you're making.
2. This also means you therefore have fewer characters to be targeted. States that debilitate/stun a character can be more devastating in this setup. 1 of 2 characters falling asleep has a much greater effect on the player than 1 of 4. Keep this in mind when designing monsters.
I would also highly recommend reading up on the concept of Action Economy.
Duet systems are much trickier to design than they appear to be. Good luck!
1. Because you have fewer party members, each action they take has to be more meaningful than if you had three or four. For example, a skill that buffs two stats instead of one may end up being a more meaningful choice to implement for the lack of inputs you're making.
2. This also means you therefore have fewer characters to be targeted. States that debilitate/stun a character can be more devastating in this setup. 1 of 2 characters falling asleep has a much greater effect on the player than 1 of 4. Keep this in mind when designing monsters.
I would also highly recommend reading up on the concept of Action Economy.
Duet systems are much trickier to design than they appear to be. Good luck!
Rine
1378
From prior experience in games with lots of experimentation to discover things like combos, after a point players will tend to find a good combo that works for them, and stick with it through the entire game unless something forces them to change. It may not be the most efficient, or fastest strategy, but its easier than trying to experiment to find something slightly more optimal. I can easily see a player with your system experimenting until they find a pretty good attack combo, and pretty good heal combo, and just using them until the game ends. It isn't bad players, its just what we tend to do (Known as first order optimal strategies, like e. Honda's hand slap in street fighter), easy to do, works very well for a while. If nothing forces them to change up or grow their strategies, they'll use that the whole game.
On another point, it looks like your combo system is designed to make combining both characters moves into one useful thing. Be aware that basically limits optimal play to either 'attacking' or 'healing' in one turn, as splitting it will be less effective.
On another point, it looks like your combo system is designed to make combining both characters moves into one useful thing. Be aware that basically limits optimal play to either 'attacking' or 'healing' in one turn, as splitting it will be less effective.
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