[POLL] SHOULD YUME NIKKI FAN GAMES BE THEIR OWN GENRE?

Poll

Should Yume Nikki fan games be their own genre? - Results

yoop
12
32%
noop
25
67%

Posts

Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Yup just gonna come into this thread about a genre I don't like and bitch about it and how I think it's universally terrible. This is a cool use of my time and will certainly spark some interesting discussion!
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Pancaek
I actually agree (now) that YM fan games shouldn't be a genre, Although it already is a sub genre, whether you like it or not, sorry.

Eh, that's fine. Sub genres are waaaay more loosely defined than genres are, to the point where it's mostly up to the individual to define them.

Though I still don't agree that it classifies even as a sub genre, mostly because I still haven't heard anything that makes Yume Nikki different than other games like it (again, a level structure does not define even a sub genre). Demon's Souls has the exact structure you said makes Yume Nikki unique, and I can promise you that Demon's Souls is not a Yume Nikki fan game or even anything close to it.
Ebeth
always up for cute art and spicy gay romance
4390
It's perfectly understandable if someone doesn't like Yume Nikki or it's fangames. They're light on actual game play and plot and can be tedious but barging into a thread of reasonable discussion to let everyone know you hate them is just kinda pointless.

Anyway, back to the actual discussion,I think we're using the term "genre" loosely here anyway. YNFGs may not fit the broad definition of a genre (again I would classify them as surreal walking sims) but there are definitely enough of them and they all have enough similarities and take enough from the original Yume Nikki that lumping them all into the same category works. It doesn't means other games with a similar formula are automatically YNFGs since YNFGs have to self identify as being a YNFG. It might technically be more of a classification than a sub-genre persay but I don't know if the terminology matters too much in the end.


author=Red_Nova
Demon's Souls has the exact structure you said makes Yume Nikki unique, and I can promise you that Demon's Souls is not a Yume Nikki fan game or even anything close to it.

I'm super curious how these two games have the same structure- if you have the time could you explain? I've never played Demon Souls myself but from what I've seen and read about it I can't see a connection beyond some of the themes but I love the idea that these two (seemingly?) wildly different things follow the exact same structure.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Sure! I compared Demon's Souls to Yume Nikki was in response to this reasoning:

author=Pancaek
No, there's a bit more too it than that. It has it's own specific game play elements exclusive to itself. Typically a YM game consists of a starting room, a hub world that leads to different worlds, different effects in each world with their own abilities and aesthetics, ect. It has enough of it's own stuff to define it from walking simulators, where you can easily say "yeah it's a YM game" without having to look at the title.


I called this a level structure in the first page of the topic, because that's what it looks like to me. Demon's Souls does the same thing: an intro level, then a hub world from which you can choose which level to go to in any order. Each level have it's own structure, gimmicks, and puzzles to deal with that you don't see in any other level of the game.

If there is something I'm missing, then great. I'd honestly love to know what else is there to Yume Nikki that makes it unique to any other game type out there. So far, I haven't see this other stuff that makes someone easily say "yeah, it's a YM game." All I see mentioned here that makes YM unique is the level structure. Aethetics are nice, but I don't see how they define a different type of game. Like you with Demon's Souls, I haven't played Yume Nikki, so I can only go by what's been said in this thread.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
The opening room isn't really an intro level (there's nothing much to introduce). If anything, it's just another part of the hub world, in a roundabout way.

Like the thing about YN is that it is so pared down that there's almost no consistent gameplay beyond "walk." I haven't bothered with any of its fangames, so I can't speak to their gameplay, but the original is overall very much a walking simulator with some bits added in.
Ebeth
always up for cute art and spicy gay romance
4390
Hmmm, thats tough to say really! In many ways Yume Nikki isn't unique (or was only unique simply due to the time it was made) but I'll do my best to explain what I think the certain "thing" Yume Nikki has that makes it unlike most other games.

I think what makes YN stand out is that it is structured like a game that should have diverse and deeper game play, but doesn't.

Like other walking sims YN has a strong focus on atmosphere. Most walking sims or games that are low on game-play, such as, Journey, Abzu or Dear Esther are very linear. You aren't always "locked in" completely but the areas that you can explore along the way are still limited and you can only backtrack so far, if at all. And even in games's like Gone Home where more exploration is encouraged there's still no hub world or various levels to beat as seen in "standard" games. Yume Nikki just lets you wander around a large amount or areas in whatever order you please, whenever you please.

Now having a hub world (or starting area) and then having levels branching off of it is something usually seen in games with actual gameplay beyond walking and picking items up. Some environments need you to collect certain effects to reach, which is kinda metroidvania-y except there's not really enough of it to say that its the defining mechanic of the game. You can kill NPC's for coins but not all of them drop stuff and there's not much of a point. Enemies chase you sometimes but there's no real combat or chase sequences. You can't usually even interact with most NPC's anyway. Some effects that you equip are useful but many are just cosmetic and don't affect gameplay at all.

It's like everything you'd expect from an rpg, metroidvania or sdventure game is there but it either doesn't actually do anything or is in such small doses that walking is still the prominent mechanic of the game. It is pure exploration for explorations sake. Yume Nikki is basically an open world walking sim which is just, kinda weird.

Then all of this is combined with well done and diverse pixel art and lots of symbolism left up for interpretation. Now this might not be enough for it itself to be "genre-less" but I think this is what make YN functionally different. Wow okay I think I've rambled enough.

TLDR: Yume Nikki is like playing an open world game except you can't actually do anything but walk and occasionally pick stuff up and equip it.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Yeah, I feel like the lack of real gameplay (plus the surreal stylings and certain motifs inviting the player to assume there's some kind of higher interpretation to it all) makes the elements that are there seem a lot more significant than they really are.

YN is super awesome as a sprawling auteur piece, but I don't feel like it's particularly revolutionary, gameplaywise. It seems a lot like someone's "I'm fooling around to learn the engine" project, but with actual effort and polish put in for some reason.
YM games are an outlet for artists to throw whatever weird and unconventional ideas they have into a world, tie it all together, and let the player experience it at their own pace. It's almost as close as you can get to raw creativity, and I think that's the point of the limited mechanics. The dev doesn't want to worry about messing with that pesky gameplay thing, they just want to create. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the player.
It's like an interactive art installation, but digital and you have to collect things to see the end of the exhibit.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
from Sooz
It seems a lot like someone's "I'm fooling around to learn the engine" project, but with actual effort and polish put in for some reason.

Having peered behind the scenes at Yume Nikki's inner workings, I can safely say it is NOT a 'just messing around' project. Some of the tricks they pulled in its creation really astounded me and demonstrated greater comprehension of the engine than an initial glance would suggest.

Best example I can recall is this one room where you meet a colorless girl. The room itself is mostly empty except for her, and when you talk to her, it shows her picture for a moment before she randomly warps away. I wasn't sure how they made it such that she jumps to a random place in the map, but here's how they did it: there's another event running around this room that's invisible to the player. It's an NPC set to move in random directions at maximum speed. When you talk to the girl, she "randomly teleports" by swapping map positions with the crazy running event! And the event is set below the player so they never bump into it, either!

And yeah, I know that's hardly the most advanced RM technique ever, but it was such an effective and interesting solution to me. Not everything the game does is all that complicated, but the attention to detail is at an insane level, which only makes it more intriguing to me. It's so lite on the gameplay, but everything else has received undue amounts of care. Like the room in the 8-bit world where you can "glitch" the game by checking a corner repeatedly. Tiles appear to be bugging out the more you check it, and eventually the game fake-freezes with a stuttering sound and everything. But the freeze screen is actually a static image, and separate versions of the image are included in case you used an effect to make it rain or snow in the room. Gah!

In a way, I can really understand the appeal of making Yume Nikki fan games. For all the things that make it so inspiring, the game is kind of a letdown at actually being a game. Like was said before, it has the Metroidvania puzzle-solving potential in spades, but it's completely squandered. Even I was tempted to make it live up to that potential, but I'm more interested in my own projects. But yeah...I certainly get the appeal.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I mean even if it WERE a just learning project, it'd be worthy of the regard its given, because it's so polished and amazingly done.

I feel like making it into a more traditional game would ruin it, in a way. It's very much its own thing, and there's no point to adding any gameplay. It just exists, and you spend time experiencing. There's no reason not to use it as an inspirational springboard for your own games, but it's fine as it is.
I've never found YN to be a "fooling around" project, but I feel like it has inspired numerous "fooling around" projects, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The format is great for first timers; heck, you can ignore that dastardly battle system altogether. And I think that's part of the reason the Horror boom happened as it did, as you don't have to utilize all of RM's systems to get things going under the hood.
I think the general impression I got from it as an RM game is that the game was built without making an RPG or conventional game at all in mind in which case something as abstract as teleporting an NPC randomly in a room would probably never come up as something you need in an RPG. So you often find quirky uses of the engine seemingly as experiments like: Okay I need to do something really crazy in this dream thing. And not just most of the game being cutscene triggers.
Ebeth
always up for cute art and spicy gay romance
4390
author=DocSaturn
It's like an interactive art installation, but digital and you have to collect things to see the end of the exhibit.


If a game doesn't kill me irl its not interactive enough.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
from Sooz
I feel like making it into a more traditional game would ruin it, in a way. It's very much its own thing, and there's no point to adding any gameplay.

I only somewhat agree. With the wide variety of effects available to collect in the game (basically powers), it's really disappointing that only a quarter of them have any use. They could have structured the game such that using the effects in clever ways led you deeper into the dreamworld, and maybe once you reached the bottom, you'd find some truth about the protagonist that puts everything in context. As is, it really is just a surreal walking simulator, and once you've seen it all, there's only one conclusion to be reached (which I won't spoil even though the game's almost 13 years old). Like I said, it has so much potential, but the most puzzle-solving you can do is to put out a fire by making it rain and that's it.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=halibabica
I only somewhat agree. With the wide variety of effects available to collect in the game (basically powers), it's really disappointing that only a quarter of them have any use. They could have structured the game such that using the effects in clever ways led you deeper into the dreamworld, and maybe once you reached the bottom, you'd find some truth about the protagonist that puts everything in context. As is, it really is just a surreal walking simulator, and once you've seen it all, there's only one conclusion to be reached (which I won't spoil even though the game's almost 13 years old). Like I said, it has so much potential, but the most puzzle-solving you can do is to put out a fire by making it rain and that's it.


Yeah see the problem here is that it's MEANT to be a surreal walking simulator. There's no real goal (collecting the effects leads to a thing, yes, but it's obviously not the goal since it's not explained) and the entire structure of the game is set up to encourage wandering and experimentation. The goal isn't "see the ending" the goal is "find things that happen."

To give it an actual goal, with puzzles and further gameplay, would encourage people NOT to explore and experience it casually, because the idea would now be "find maguffins and unlock more stuff."

This is the problem with the whole idea of walking simulators being "bad." Sure, they may not be one's cup of tea, but that doesn't mean they need to be altered to fit a different gameplay style, any more than, say, FPS or MOBA games need to be altered so that they become something I like.

Again, no problem in being inspired by the piece to make something similar that's more up your own alley. But you're basically going up to an abstract painting and saying, "I know what this needs! Realistic detail!" If the dev wanted to make a more traditional game, p. sure dude would've made a more traditional game.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
from Sooz
Yeah see the problem here is that it's MEANT to be a surreal walking simulator. There's no real goal (collecting the effects leads to a thing, yes, but it's obviously not the goal since it's not explained) and the entire structure of the game is set up to encourage wandering and experimentation. The goal isn't "see the ending" the goal is "find things that happen."
But would the game's purpose really be hurt by such an addition? The core gameplay would still be the same. It'd still be "find things that happen" but while also including "find places to make things happen." In one instance, you're a casual observer, and in the other you're applying yourself in a more substantial way. The game already has a taste of this with what few puzzles there are. Is the game's theme dampened by the fire you need rain to put out, or the hole you can only fit in as a midget, or the wall you need the knife to cut open? Hardly! If anything, the potential for exploration and easter eggs skyrockets with every additional effect. But Kikiyama was content to give you about five things that actually do anything and the rest is empty voids with "things that happen" strewn between.

Just because it was meant to be a surreal walking simulator doesn't mean it couldn't also have been more. This is why I keep tossing around the word 'potential.'
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I'd argue that a lot of the game at least appears intentionally set up to give a feeling that this is a world where you have, at best, minimal power over anything. This actually meshes REALLY well with the setup and ending, in that there's a general feeling of powerlessness and lack of effect on the world that would be erased entirely if more traditional gameplay were inserted.

I expect this feeling of powerlessness is part of why many people think of it as a horror game, since that's a common trait in the more effective games of that genre. (Y'know, along with the grotesque imagery. :V )
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
But...you're not powerless in Yume Nikki. The knife lets you kill ALMOST anything, but having that power is a bit scary in and of itself. Or maybe it's the things it doesn't work on that leave you feeling helpless. *shrug*

I always felt the tension came from being a young girl in a big, confusing, scary world, but also being trapped in your own head.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
But the killing doesn't actually do anything for you, it just makes some things go away. It is a nearly meaningless action.

Part of the trapped feeling is the fact that there is nothing for you to do to change your situation, and no apparent goal.