CRAFTING IN GAMES

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Definitely disagree with your example; Quen is flawed, and if you want to play the game like that, that's on you.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to cheese the whole game like that, but it's definitely NOT easy and it's definitely NOT fun. You pretty much have to go out of your way to only rely on Quen/attack and nothing else the further you get into builds it's actually more fun and easier to cheese through the game in...like two dozen other ways.

but hey you do you
Who wants to cheese their way through a game like Witcher 3 anyway? It's fun to go up against monsters and learn how best to take them out. The first time I met one of those insect things I nearly crapped myself but I figured out a good strategy and managed to beat one about 6 levels higher than me and felt accomplished for the struggle it took. Quenning or cheesing my way through it would have made me feel like it was no big deal. That's boring (imo - others might feel accomplished I guess, but I don't get that mentality).

Also, Quen doesn't really help much in a lot of battles. It's okay, but it's not the be-all, end-all of ability choices, even when fully maxed. It's always better to base your strategy on the enemy in question, rather than treating them all the same.
author=Liberty
Also, Quen doesn't really help much in a lot of battles. It's okay, but it's not the be-all, end-all of ability choices, even when fully maxed.


Oddly enough I do have to disagree there; Sal is right in that it's easily, easily the most powerful ability in the game, but I disagreed with him on several other points.
Maybe it's the way I play, but I don't find that it breaks the game or anything like others have said. It's useful, sure, but not the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

We're all agreed the Yrden is pretty much useless but in very few circumstances, though, right?
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3214
author=Liberty
Maybe it's the way I play, but I don't find that it breaks the game or anything like others have said. It's useful, sure, but not the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

We're all agreed the Yrden is pretty much useless but in very few circumstances, though, right?

The ultimate form of Quen basically makes the game a joke. It absorbs all damage that you take as healing, takes multiple hits before dispelling, and reflects all damage that you take. In my first playthrough, I beat the final boss by standing still, holding down the Quen button, and never attacked as it kept healing what little damage it did to me and kept hurting itself.

I like the idea of Yrden but found basically no use for it. The problem with the signs, I think, is that they all have the same cost but aren't equally useful. Quen would be much less OP if you were forced to spend your sign energy on anything else. Igni is also pretty cool and I used it a lot in my first playthrough since you can stunluck enemies and keep them far enough away to never hurt you, but it takes so long to damage anything that way that I started relying on Quen+attack spam, which kills most enemies in seconds.
Sailerius is criminally wrong in almost literally everything he says but he's right about that; Quen is a fucking monster, and is, compared to everything else, the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

However, true to form of being wrong about shit, I'd say you're wrong in the application of how Quen is the best ability; this is assuming you do nothing but pump all of your points into Quen and only Quen, and it does take a while for Quen to get the abilities it does; you don't start the game off with it being able to absorb and reflect damage and taking multiple hits.

So technically yes, you can cheese through the entire game with Quen. In practice, however, it takes time and deliberate work on your end for you to do that, ignoring the multitude of easier, more fun, and more accessible ways to play through the game, and if you do power through the game with Quen at the expense of everything else that's your own damn fault.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3214
author=Feldschlacht IV
Sailerius is criminally wrong in almost literally everything he says but he's right about that; Quen is a fucking monster, and is, compared to everything else, the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

However, true to form of being wrong about shit, I'd say you're wrong in the application of how Quen is the best ability; this is assuming you do nothing but pump all of your points into Quen and only Quen, and it does take a while for Quen to get the abilities it does; you don't start the game off with it being able to absorb and reflect damage and taking multiple hits.

So technically yes, you can cheese through the entire game with Quen. In practice, however, it takes time and deliberate work on your end for you to do that, ignoring the multitude of easier, more fun, and more accessible ways to play through the game, and if you do power through the game with Quen at the expense of everything else that's your own damn fault.

I agree that it's not a fun way to play the game, but it is an easy and fast one. It's a good example of the principle of the burden of optimal play, in which the easiest, most reliable, and most efficient way to play a game is also the least fun, and is usually an indication of poor design. I honestly think the game would be better with Quen removed, because it trivialized the combat so much that I never felt the need to learn any other mechanic.

And yeah, you could say it's my fault for relying on it, but it's the game's fault for not balancing it. I feel that it is a game designer's responsibility to force you to have fun, and to aggressively prune ways that undermine that goal.

To get this back on topic, I feel like crafting often falls into a similar trap in games, where the mental activation energy required to learn it and engage with it is too high. The best example of crafting done right that I can think of is MGSV, where the interface and mechanics for it are dead simple, and it works seamlessly into the core gameplay loop.

A big part of it, I think, is that the first few things you can craft are free (require no items), then the next ones only cost money, and it's as you progress to the nontrivial blueprints that it starts throwing item costs at you. Once you get acclimated to doing it regularly, it becomes second nature.

Compare that to crafting in TW3, which I actually think is a cool idea on paper, but it's so involved and has so little introduction that I mostly avoided touching it.
author=Sal
I agree that it's not a fun way to play the game, but it is an easy and fast one. It's a good example of the principle of the burden of optimal play, in which the easiest, most reliable, and most efficient way to play a game is also the least fun, and is usually an indication of poor design. I honestly think the game would be better with Quen removed, because it trivialized the combat so much that I never felt the need to learn any other mechanic.

And yeah, you could say it's my fault for relying on it, but it's the game's fault for not balancing it. I feel that it is a game designer's responsibility to force you to have fun, and to aggressively prune ways that undermine that goal.

My final words on it; you're not grasping the spirit of what I'm saying. You can't just start up the game intuitively use Quen and just coast from there. The argument of 'Quen ruins everything' is really only applicable from the purest, most mechanical way to play the game and is not going to be how 99% of players approach it.

You really have to try to get Quen to carry the game for you. You're not arguing this from an overall holistic standpoint, but a .01% turbonerd standpoint. It's not really a comprehensive argument.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
this is a beautiful thread

does anybody like the weird skill level unlocks in stardew valley? i don't really although i admit it helps make the game seem less overwhelming when you first start.
http://www.clickhole.com/video/throwback-review-goldeneye-sucks-because-you-dont--5943

Also, I like how this topic became 'Crafting in games/Quen discussion', and also how Sai's hardon for anything MGS overshadows it all.
i love crafting games as it can enhance our memory specially for memorizing the items ingredients to be crafted :)

playing : minecraft and growtopia :) open for game suggestion :)
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