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AGAIN, MAP LIMIT. WHICH WAY TO GO?
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Siggi_Trust
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CloseHi everyone. My third post here, unfortunately forgot to post in Introduction. I'll do that next :)
So taking the cat out of the bag...my first sort of practice project on RPG Maker was to recreate Zelda as an RPG game...something someone has undoubtedly done before...I've mapped a few maps from Zelda 1 and the world map from Zelda 2.
I originally was working on it in RPG Maker VX Ace but have moved to MV, but more on that in my future Introduction post.
I was searching yet again, after coming back into RPG Maker game making, on the topic of the 999 map limit and stumbled on this thread here:
https://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?threads/max-number-of-map-in-mv.75012/
So what I can see is people usually disregard this topic saying that no one needs more than 999 maps. I decided to link this here since they mentioned Zelda there.
So since it wasn't answered there for me.....I have a question which I need addressed before continuing on my mapping for Zelda.
At the moment I have each screen from Zelda 1 mapped as one small map. Which means the overworld in Zelda 1 is 128 maps all together. If I map the dungeons the same way that's plenty more maps. The overworld in Zelda 2 is only one map since that'll act as the main world map.
On top of this, I planned on making an alternative version of the world....a Dark World perhaps or a past world, don't know yet. That's 128x2 maps + more dungeon maps for dark world levels.
I'd also like to make some optional dungeons but they don't all have to be composed of small maps. Towns for instance will be one map per town, then sub maps for buildings.
I was using a map slide script in Ace which I've yet to implement into MV but since I wanted to use this I have to keep each screen as a whole map right?
So....I am afraid I might exceed the 999 map limit in this case unless there's a way to somehow hide parts of the map or simply put....if there's another way to make this exactly like you were playing Zelda 1. You move to the edge of the screen, the camera not following you and then the map slides into the next screen and so on.
I even think that if the Zelda 1 map is one map, it wouldn't offer enough tiles to do the whole thing. There's what....16 tiles across on each screen and 16 screens so that's......what lol, that's 256, exactly the max number available in MV...
I'm just wondering, should I continue working like this...? Do I have a reason to worry if I'll exceed 999 maps? Or IS THERE a way for me to let this work?
I plan to make a play video but I want to finish at least one dungeon first.
I have written some plot summary for the first 4 or 5 levels or so, but I don't want to go too far unless this issue is addressed.
Regards
So taking the cat out of the bag...my first sort of practice project on RPG Maker was to recreate Zelda as an RPG game...something someone has undoubtedly done before...I've mapped a few maps from Zelda 1 and the world map from Zelda 2.
I originally was working on it in RPG Maker VX Ace but have moved to MV, but more on that in my future Introduction post.
I was searching yet again, after coming back into RPG Maker game making, on the topic of the 999 map limit and stumbled on this thread here:
https://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?threads/max-number-of-map-in-mv.75012/
So what I can see is people usually disregard this topic saying that no one needs more than 999 maps. I decided to link this here since they mentioned Zelda there.
So since it wasn't answered there for me.....I have a question which I need addressed before continuing on my mapping for Zelda.
At the moment I have each screen from Zelda 1 mapped as one small map. Which means the overworld in Zelda 1 is 128 maps all together. If I map the dungeons the same way that's plenty more maps. The overworld in Zelda 2 is only one map since that'll act as the main world map.
On top of this, I planned on making an alternative version of the world....a Dark World perhaps or a past world, don't know yet. That's 128x2 maps + more dungeon maps for dark world levels.
I'd also like to make some optional dungeons but they don't all have to be composed of small maps. Towns for instance will be one map per town, then sub maps for buildings.
I was using a map slide script in Ace which I've yet to implement into MV but since I wanted to use this I have to keep each screen as a whole map right?
So....I am afraid I might exceed the 999 map limit in this case unless there's a way to somehow hide parts of the map or simply put....if there's another way to make this exactly like you were playing Zelda 1. You move to the edge of the screen, the camera not following you and then the map slides into the next screen and so on.
I even think that if the Zelda 1 map is one map, it wouldn't offer enough tiles to do the whole thing. There's what....16 tiles across on each screen and 16 screens so that's......what lol, that's 256, exactly the max number available in MV...
I'm just wondering, should I continue working like this...? Do I have a reason to worry if I'll exceed 999 maps? Or IS THERE a way for me to let this work?
I plan to make a play video but I want to finish at least one dungeon first.
I have written some plot summary for the first 4 or 5 levels or so, but I don't want to go too far unless this issue is addressed.
Regards
Kaempfer
1932
The first Zelda averages 25 screens per dungeon, and there are 9 dungeons iirc. That's only about 225 maps (max) total, so you could have almost 20 huge dungeons and still have maps left over.
Alternatively, it might be possible to make the overworld map as either 1 or 4 maps (broken into 4 quadrants if MV can't handle the map size) then lock the camera in place until you hit the edge of the screen, whereupon the camera moves to the center of the next screen. That should give the illusion of non-scrolling areas on one large overworld.
Alternatively, it might be possible to make the overworld map as either 1 or 4 maps (broken into 4 quadrants if MV can't handle the map size) then lock the camera in place until you hit the edge of the screen, whereupon the camera moves to the center of the next screen. That should give the illusion of non-scrolling areas on one large overworld.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Make a smaller game.
You're trying to make a game three times the size of a real Zelda game. You should be trying to make a game the size of the first dungeon in a real Zelda game. Finish a few smaller games first and work your way up.
The engine limitation isn't the problem. You'll never actually hit 999 maps because your human life span is the problem. You will literally never finish this project.
...Anyway if you want to recreate the world of Zelda 1 then just make each section of the overworld into a map. Death Mountain is one map, Lost Woods is one map, Graveyard is one map, etc. You can rig some screen-locks and faux transitions if you want to only show one screen at a time for ~~~~nostalgia~~~~ purposes.
You're trying to make a game three times the size of a real Zelda game. You should be trying to make a game the size of the first dungeon in a real Zelda game. Finish a few smaller games first and work your way up.
The engine limitation isn't the problem. You'll never actually hit 999 maps because your human life span is the problem. You will literally never finish this project.
...Anyway if you want to recreate the world of Zelda 1 then just make each section of the overworld into a map. Death Mountain is one map, Lost Woods is one map, Graveyard is one map, etc. You can rig some screen-locks and faux transitions if you want to only show one screen at a time for ~~~~nostalgia~~~~ purposes.
author=Siggi_TrustThis isn't an accident. The NES had more or less the same limitation. They made the world map in Zelda 1 take up every single available tile that the hardware could handle, to make the game as big as possible.
I even think that if the Zelda 1 map is one map, it wouldn't offer enough tiles to do the whole thing. There's what....16 tiles across on each screen and 16 screens so that's......what lol, that's 256, exactly the max number available in MV...
Jalex
979
author=Kaempfer
Alternatively, it might be possible to make the overworld map as either 1 or 4 maps (broken into 4 quadrants if MV can't handle the map size) then lock the camera in place until you hit the edge of the screen, whereupon the camera moves to the center of the next screen. That should give the illusion of non-scrolling areas on one large overworld.
I just tested it out in MV, and it is possible to do this by locking the camera onto an event in the center of the screen, then moving that event whenever the player moves a certain distance away from the event.
Have you considered using Zelda Classic?
I was looking for such a camera trick but didn't find one that works exactly.
I don't understand why people talk as if this is so impossible to finish. I've already made all the tiles from Zelda 2 overworld and Zelda 1 overworld. If you look at Zelda 1, there's very few different tile graphics. It now literally takes a minute to draw each map.
The dungeons are a couple of more tiles but they're all just color swaps from there.
One thing I should mention, I may be relatively new to RPG Maker but I'm not a Photoshop beginner and am quick to learn computer related stuff.
RPG games are large games and do take time to make. If I don't finish this game, it's not because it was too big a project.
A world map in an RPG game is a big map. Yes I'm trying to make a game three times as big as Zelda because it's an RPG version. That doesn't mean it's impossible.
Like I say also, I consider this to be a practice project just as well. If I finish it, then great. But you don't have to limit yourself to a 5 minute game to practice and learn stuff. You can just as well work your way through a bigger project. I'm not a level 1 beginner.
It could well be that I won't reach 999 maps, but I don't however see the problem with it if I will unless it's hardware related and I just can't work around it. People just say "you'll never do it" or "are you immortal, you won't live that long." I'm making the same thing whether it's one big map or multiple small ones. Well roughly.
There'll be 9 main dungeons in the first world. That's 180 maps if we say that all of them are 20 map screens but some of them, like the 9th level will ultimately be bigger.
Say there are 8 levels or so in the next world, that's 160 maps and again, more maps for the larger dungeons. Then there's optional dungeons which I don't know anything about yet. They don't have to follow the same format with map slides and stuff and I don't plan to make all the dungeons act the same anyways. Some of them will look like the Z1 dungeons while others will have larger maps like Z2 and Z3 (obviously not 2d platforming like in Z2) but some of the dungeons are meant to be underground...something like in Z1 while others are more like palaces.
Adding this all together, 2x Zelda 1 worlds, two Zelda 2 worlds (only two maps), 9 dungeons with 20 screens in world 1 and 8 in world 2 I have 593 or so. I can add onto this some maps since dungeons will be larger than 20 maps. There's towns and buildings which I haven't reached yet and optional dungeons but ultimately, I may not reach 999 maps but in the current format, I'll be getting dangerously close to it.
Now if there is a way like you guys have mentioned...to make the Zelda 1 world a single map by moving the camera only at the edge of the screen, I'm pretty much set, I'll definitely do so. That means, the Zelda 1 world will become 2 maps instead of well.....256 or whatever it was. Same for dungeons, only one map per dungeon instead of 20+
This is what I'm trying to figure out...the best way to achieve this map sliding feature without using multiple maps. So as to know what path I need to take from here. Taking the maps I've already made and copying them into one big map takes just a couple of minutes. This way, I'd be able to finish the whole Zelda 1 world with one map, getting rid of all map naming and map arrangement stuff.
And wow...sorry, this wasn't supposed to be so long jesus....
EDIT: Sorry short edit....I've just tried GALV's camera plugin and it seems to work just fine. The events on the edge of the screens just moves the camera to XY and it's just easy as hell. Only problem is it slows down as it nears the coordinates. I'd like a more linear transition. But it's better this way.
You guys don't happen to know how I can make it so Scroll Map doesn't slow down as it reaches it's destination but rather has a linear movement?
I don't understand why people talk as if this is so impossible to finish. I've already made all the tiles from Zelda 2 overworld and Zelda 1 overworld. If you look at Zelda 1, there's very few different tile graphics. It now literally takes a minute to draw each map.
The dungeons are a couple of more tiles but they're all just color swaps from there.
One thing I should mention, I may be relatively new to RPG Maker but I'm not a Photoshop beginner and am quick to learn computer related stuff.
RPG games are large games and do take time to make. If I don't finish this game, it's not because it was too big a project.
A world map in an RPG game is a big map. Yes I'm trying to make a game three times as big as Zelda because it's an RPG version. That doesn't mean it's impossible.
Like I say also, I consider this to be a practice project just as well. If I finish it, then great. But you don't have to limit yourself to a 5 minute game to practice and learn stuff. You can just as well work your way through a bigger project. I'm not a level 1 beginner.
It could well be that I won't reach 999 maps, but I don't however see the problem with it if I will unless it's hardware related and I just can't work around it. People just say "you'll never do it" or "are you immortal, you won't live that long." I'm making the same thing whether it's one big map or multiple small ones. Well roughly.
There'll be 9 main dungeons in the first world. That's 180 maps if we say that all of them are 20 map screens but some of them, like the 9th level will ultimately be bigger.
Say there are 8 levels or so in the next world, that's 160 maps and again, more maps for the larger dungeons. Then there's optional dungeons which I don't know anything about yet. They don't have to follow the same format with map slides and stuff and I don't plan to make all the dungeons act the same anyways. Some of them will look like the Z1 dungeons while others will have larger maps like Z2 and Z3 (obviously not 2d platforming like in Z2) but some of the dungeons are meant to be underground...something like in Z1 while others are more like palaces.
Adding this all together, 2x Zelda 1 worlds, two Zelda 2 worlds (only two maps), 9 dungeons with 20 screens in world 1 and 8 in world 2 I have 593 or so. I can add onto this some maps since dungeons will be larger than 20 maps. There's towns and buildings which I haven't reached yet and optional dungeons but ultimately, I may not reach 999 maps but in the current format, I'll be getting dangerously close to it.
Now if there is a way like you guys have mentioned...to make the Zelda 1 world a single map by moving the camera only at the edge of the screen, I'm pretty much set, I'll definitely do so. That means, the Zelda 1 world will become 2 maps instead of well.....256 or whatever it was. Same for dungeons, only one map per dungeon instead of 20+
This is what I'm trying to figure out...the best way to achieve this map sliding feature without using multiple maps. So as to know what path I need to take from here. Taking the maps I've already made and copying them into one big map takes just a couple of minutes. This way, I'd be able to finish the whole Zelda 1 world with one map, getting rid of all map naming and map arrangement stuff.
And wow...sorry, this wasn't supposed to be so long jesus....
EDIT: Sorry short edit....I've just tried GALV's camera plugin and it seems to work just fine. The events on the edge of the screens just moves the camera to XY and it's just easy as hell. Only problem is it slows down as it nears the coordinates. I'd like a more linear transition. But it's better this way.
You guys don't happen to know how I can make it so Scroll Map doesn't slow down as it reaches it's destination but rather has a linear movement?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Making noninteractive maps is not what makes a game take a long time to make. Finish a game before you decide that everyone else is wrong.
The idea that "RPG games are large games" is false. All genres of games have all sizes of games. Also, news flash, you're not making an RPG.
As far as locking the map in place, there's a built-in event command to do that in events. But if you do it that way you'll end up making 6144 camera-moving events just for the light world, so you definitely will want to write a script to do it automatically for you instead.
The idea that "RPG games are large games" is false. All genres of games have all sizes of games. Also, news flash, you're not making an RPG.
As far as locking the map in place, there's a built-in event command to do that in events. But if you do it that way you'll end up making 6144 camera-moving events just for the light world, so you definitely will want to write a script to do it automatically for you instead.
I'm not saying anybody's wrong? I'm just asking what would be the preferred method to do this, aside from whether I'm trying to complete a finished game or not or doing this for practice or not and I'm just having a hard time finding the right script for it. I'm trying to figure out how to replicate the exact thing but if that's not possible, I'll be fine with something similar. I managed to copy it exactly on VX Ace with a Map Slide script but that's where I had every screen a single map and a lot of events for all those screen edge tiles.
Who says I'm not making an RPG game? The maps from Zelda isn't the only thing I'm doing. And I'm not making an action game. There's random encounters. It's just for fun. Now I know RPG is a huge definition and true RPGs are not like some JRPG and Final Fantasy. You're not talking to someone who knows nothing about gaming.
If I'll get this map business right, I can work very far without much help. I just need a clear explanation, especially performance wise, what's best to do. Should I make one large 256x256 for the light world and stitch screens together with camera locks, should I make a separate map for some sections like mentioned before, one for death mountain, graveyard etc? Or should I keep it as I started, one map for every screen? What impacts performance the most? Number of maps? Large maps? Way to many events on a single map?
Games are different. You might need a lot of work and time on your mapping and less somewhere else. You may write your own scripts from scratch and make extremely simple maps. Just writing an original story that's good, writing a script and other documenting about your game...of course this all takes ridiculous time.
I've tried making a bigger map and a few different scrolling methods and plugins and I run into some problems with all of them. Still trying it out but any thoughts and ideas are welcome.
Who says I'm not making an RPG game? The maps from Zelda isn't the only thing I'm doing. And I'm not making an action game. There's random encounters. It's just for fun. Now I know RPG is a huge definition and true RPGs are not like some JRPG and Final Fantasy. You're not talking to someone who knows nothing about gaming.
If I'll get this map business right, I can work very far without much help. I just need a clear explanation, especially performance wise, what's best to do. Should I make one large 256x256 for the light world and stitch screens together with camera locks, should I make a separate map for some sections like mentioned before, one for death mountain, graveyard etc? Or should I keep it as I started, one map for every screen? What impacts performance the most? Number of maps? Large maps? Way to many events on a single map?
Games are different. You might need a lot of work and time on your mapping and less somewhere else. You may write your own scripts from scratch and make extremely simple maps. Just writing an original story that's good, writing a script and other documenting about your game...of course this all takes ridiculous time.
I've tried making a bigger map and a few different scrolling methods and plugins and I run into some problems with all of them. Still trying it out but any thoughts and ideas are welcome.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
As far as performance, the size of the map and the number of events on the map are what affects it. Splitting it up will improve performance. Splitting it up into just nine maps or so will improve it enough to run flawlessly on anyone's computer. Splitting it up any further than that won't make a difference in terms of performance.
Also don't forget that almost every screen in Zelda 1 had a hidden entrance as well. That's another couple hundred maps. However in those cases it's MUCH easier to use one giant map and lock the screen, since none of them connect to each-other.
If you really do run out of maps the simplest method of course is to split your game into multiple games. Your Zelda 1 Remake would be a pretty huge game all by itself - the original Zelda 1 takes dozens of hours to beat in a blind first playthrough, and that's with no cutscenes, no dialogue, five second battles, and the ability to walk past most of the enemies. So I think that making that first, and then calling your Zelda 1 Dark World or your Zelda 2 Remake a sequel to that, and making them be separate games, would be totally reasonable.
Also don't forget that almost every screen in Zelda 1 had a hidden entrance as well. That's another couple hundred maps. However in those cases it's MUCH easier to use one giant map and lock the screen, since none of them connect to each-other.
If you really do run out of maps the simplest method of course is to split your game into multiple games. Your Zelda 1 Remake would be a pretty huge game all by itself - the original Zelda 1 takes dozens of hours to beat in a blind first playthrough, and that's with no cutscenes, no dialogue, five second battles, and the ability to walk past most of the enemies. So I think that making that first, and then calling your Zelda 1 Dark World or your Zelda 2 Remake a sequel to that, and making them be separate games, would be totally reasonable.
yeah okay great my reply just failed.
Anyway I said I'd definitely be doing a couple of bigger maps split into sections like you said if not only for performance. I won't be imitating everything exactly the same like making all the hidden passages but those will be just similar dwellings, one room with a guy to talk to.
And yeah, my game won't be just Link walking aimlessly around. There'll be more characters, dialogue and you'll have a clue on where to go next or straight out be told where to go.
Thanks for clarifying this for me. I can continue working on it now.
I've also managed to get a script that allows map scrolling pretty good. Not exactly right but of all the different scripts, this one's the best. I just need to figure out now if I can do the same scroll even if the player is transferring between maps, not just when he's moving between screens on the same map.
Anyway I said I'd definitely be doing a couple of bigger maps split into sections like you said if not only for performance. I won't be imitating everything exactly the same like making all the hidden passages but those will be just similar dwellings, one room with a guy to talk to.
And yeah, my game won't be just Link walking aimlessly around. There'll be more characters, dialogue and you'll have a clue on where to go next or straight out be told where to go.
Thanks for clarifying this for me. I can continue working on it now.
I've also managed to get a script that allows map scrolling pretty good. Not exactly right but of all the different scripts, this one's the best. I just need to figure out now if I can do the same scroll even if the player is transferring between maps, not just when he's moving between screens on the same map.
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