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RISE OF THE INDIE OR SMALL STUDIO DEVELOPER?
Posts
kentona
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Closedamn. I knew it wasn't a get-rich-quick scheme, but I was secretly hoping it was a get-rich-slow scheme.
It's like what Greg Hahn says: "I've been doing standup for 15 years and I have made HUNDREDS of dollars!"
Shinan
4314
If you want to get rich slowly I think one way to go is to make a lot of games. That way you have many small pieces of income to gather from and if/when you make that one somewhat large hit game, there might be people who'll go through all that backlog and there's no doubt a bit of a boost there. The more games one has, the larger the chance of someone who likes one of them also getting a bunch of the others.
Of course it's still probably more work than it's worth...
Of course it's still probably more work than it's worth...
To second what Shinan said, a lot of the well-known indie developers spent 5-10 years consistently making games and only seeing mild success before hitting a home run. I'm sure this is a great way to slowly build up your skills, but it also means you can slowly build a fanbase of people who are into your games, and will start checking out what you make in the future. As you get fans who will help you promote future games, you can slowly build up & up until you reach critical mass!
...Or that's the theory, anyway. Honestly, it's pretty difficult to continuously make games, art, or whatever, when you also gotta pay the bills and everything else. But, it does seem to be a trend I've noticed! Very few people see tons of success on their first game or three.
...Or that's the theory, anyway. Honestly, it's pretty difficult to continuously make games, art, or whatever, when you also gotta pay the bills and everything else. But, it does seem to be a trend I've noticed! Very few people see tons of success on their first game or three.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Shinan
If you want to get rich slowly I think one way to go is to make a lot of games. That way you have many small pieces of income to gather from and if/when you make that one somewhat large hit game, there might be people who'll go through all that backlog and there's no doubt a bit of a boost there. The more games one has, the larger the chance of someone who likes one of them also getting a bunch of the others.
Of course it's still probably more work than it's worth...
Yeah, it's a decent way to make supplemental pocket money while you do something else, but it's not really a "get rich" scheme. You'd be much better off making financial investments and waiting for those to pay off.
author=slash
To second what Shinan said, a lot of the well-known indie developers spent 5-10 years consistently making games and only seeing mild success before hitting a home run. I'm sure this is a great way to slowly build up your skills, but it also means you can slowly build a fanbase of people who are into your games, and will start checking out what you make in the future. As you get fans who will help you promote future games, you can slowly build up & up until you reach critical mass!
...Or that's the theory, anyway. Honestly, it's pretty difficult to continuously make games, art, or whatever, when you also gotta pay the bills and everything else. But, it does seem to be a trend I've noticed! Very few people see tons of success on their first game or three.
You also have to bear in mind that, in those cases, we are only seeing the people who won the indie hit lottery. There are so, so many more devs-- good devs, even!-- who have made game after game after game and still languished in obscurity.
Without the significant marketing machine of AAA companies, any commercial creative work is extremely dependent on the luck of the right people seeing you at the right time, and choosing to tell other people about you.
author=slash
With regards to the "indie bubble" popping, I think it's closer to a gold rush that's winding down.
Indeed, it's less of a "burst" and more of a bubble that's been slowly deflating for a few years now. At the very least, indie development can no longer be seen solely as something that is done for money or profit, and for 95% of us, it won't be sustainable. It's something I would never quit my day job for.
On the flip side, it's never been a better time to think of developing games as a hobby or creative endeavor. Since you have the maximum amount of creative control on your projects, you can very well make the game of your dreams more easily now than you ever could, even if it isn't necessarily the game the world needs or wants to see.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Sgt M
Indeed, it's less of a "burst" and more of a bubble that's been slowly deflating for a few years now. At the very least, indie development can no longer be seen solely as something that is done for money or profit, and for 95% of us, it won't be sustainable. It's something I would never quit my day job for.
See also: any self-made creative work under capitalism :(
Kaliesto
583
Here is some thoughts I was thinking about:
I think because of what happened after the PS2/Gamecube/Xbox era was over that graphics became the main thing, and it has caused quite a downfall for many studios whether they were indie or part of a big company. Also besides graphics but more advanced coding that will take much longer than it was usually possible. I believe today's audience has gotten unfortunately spoiled, and in some ways the players themselves has caused a major rift that is not likely to heal. Every now and again you may get something like Cosmic Star Heroine that does really well, but it might take a bit more effort to get the world-wide audience on the same page to re-accept the past and let it meld with the present. Unfortunately I hear things like how today's generation pretty think our generations of games sucked ass (well some games did suck) but they even thought some of the popular games sucked as well, Idk where this mindset is coming from but it's pretty sad there is a disrespect going on (statistically I hope it's not a big number of people thinking like that).
If such a scenario were to pass, I think the Japanese Industry itself will likely revitalize itself so it doesn't have to rely on AAA experiences anymore. Also considering the advanced tools available compared to the 90s that making a retro experience is not as hard anymore. Personally I would like to see more PS1 looking games with some visual upgrades that are now possible, and or games that are similar to Arc the Lad and Alundra. Those era of games had a appeal that hasn't been replicated for a long time now.
Pretty much I was of fan of PS1 games that had 3D environments mixed with sprites, I felt it was the perfect recipe for success for those types of games. PS1 3D characters were just too ugly in my opinion (unless it was something like Final Fantasy 9).
Also I noticed you all been talking about advertising, I think the best approach for Indies (IMO) is start off making a video trailer on youtube and then eventually spread yourself to various social media platforms (Reddit, etc). it's usually a good start, and it just grows from there.
The real trick is whether host yourself on STEAM or GOG first, I know some people have issue with STEAM. Idk the stance on GOG though, and just how huge the playerbase is.
I think because of what happened after the PS2/Gamecube/Xbox era was over that graphics became the main thing, and it has caused quite a downfall for many studios whether they were indie or part of a big company. Also besides graphics but more advanced coding that will take much longer than it was usually possible. I believe today's audience has gotten unfortunately spoiled, and in some ways the players themselves has caused a major rift that is not likely to heal. Every now and again you may get something like Cosmic Star Heroine that does really well, but it might take a bit more effort to get the world-wide audience on the same page to re-accept the past and let it meld with the present. Unfortunately I hear things like how today's generation pretty think our generations of games sucked ass (well some games did suck) but they even thought some of the popular games sucked as well, Idk where this mindset is coming from but it's pretty sad there is a disrespect going on (statistically I hope it's not a big number of people thinking like that).
If such a scenario were to pass, I think the Japanese Industry itself will likely revitalize itself so it doesn't have to rely on AAA experiences anymore. Also considering the advanced tools available compared to the 90s that making a retro experience is not as hard anymore. Personally I would like to see more PS1 looking games with some visual upgrades that are now possible, and or games that are similar to Arc the Lad and Alundra. Those era of games had a appeal that hasn't been replicated for a long time now.
Pretty much I was of fan of PS1 games that had 3D environments mixed with sprites, I felt it was the perfect recipe for success for those types of games. PS1 3D characters were just too ugly in my opinion (unless it was something like Final Fantasy 9).
Also I noticed you all been talking about advertising, I think the best approach for Indies (IMO) is start off making a video trailer on youtube and then eventually spread yourself to various social media platforms (Reddit, etc). it's usually a good start, and it just grows from there.
The real trick is whether host yourself on STEAM or GOG first, I know some people have issue with STEAM. Idk the stance on GOG though, and just how huge the playerbase is.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Kaliesto
I think because of what happened after the PS2/Gamecube/Xbox era was over that graphics became the main thing, and it has caused quite a downfall for many studios whether they were indie or part of a big company.
Graphics have always been the main thing in video game marketing, because it's the easiest thing to market: you have to work to compare things like processing speed, sound is going to be mostly a matter of opinion for most people, and neither show up in print. But you can compare graphics at a glance, and it's a fairly objective measure in most cases.
I believe today's audience has gotten unfortunately spoiled, and in some ways the players themselves has caused a major rift that is not likely to heal. Every now and again you may get something like Cosmic Star Heroine that does really well, but it might take a bit more effort to get the world-wide audience on the same page to re-accept the past and let it meld with the present. Unfortunately I hear things like how today's generation pretty think our generations of games sucked ass (well some games did suck) but they even thought some of the popular games sucked as well, Idk where this mindset is coming from but it's pretty sad there is a disrespect going on (statistically I hope it's not a big number of people thinking like that).
I don't think I'd call it "spoiled," so much as modern audiences benefit from the breakthroughs of the past without having to live through the crap that made those breakthroughs necessary. It's much the same as someone judging, say, the Watchmen comic, or Citizen Kane: they're important because they were the first and influenced everything that came after them, but when you're visiting them as someone who's used to their influence being the norm, you're simply not going to be able to appreciate them the same way; they'll just be more of the same.
I have to say, even a lot of the "classics" of old gaming don't hold up especially well, simply because they didn't have the benefit of learning from past mistakes. Popularity is not a reliable indicator of quality or staying power- a look at Billboard charts of past years should tell you that!
It's just a fact of life that humans are more interested in novelty and spectacle, so you're going to have to work harder and find a different angle if you're not able to provide those easily.
Shinan
4314
A lot of old games do suck ass though. Like I love GOG and all their backlog but a lot of those games are basically unplayable by today's standards. UI and user-friendliness have evolved so much since those staggering steps in the 90s.
Console games have it better because they were more standardized and a lot of them are still fairly playable (many are way too difficult though, you know the old "nintendo-hard" saying.)
I especially think that with the recent "rise of indies" we've gotten a lot of games that feel like the memories we (I) have of old games without actually being as terrible as the old games. So in that way we are incredibly "spoiled", never before has there been such a breadth of choice accessible in gaming. Usually I can wake up in the morning and think "man, a game that did x and y would be pretty sweet" and a quick search shows that I already have a game like that in my steam library!
Console games have it better because they were more standardized and a lot of them are still fairly playable (many are way too difficult though, you know the old "nintendo-hard" saying.)
I especially think that with the recent "rise of indies" we've gotten a lot of games that feel like the memories we (I) have of old games without actually being as terrible as the old games. So in that way we are incredibly "spoiled", never before has there been such a breadth of choice accessible in gaming. Usually I can wake up in the morning and think "man, a game that did x and y would be pretty sweet" and a quick search shows that I already have a game like that in my steam library!
Darken
3952
Idk I played a lot of old games I never grew up or even known til recently and enjoyed them immensely. It takes some understanding of the medium I guess. There are people who can't stand watching black and white movies which can seem irrational when the content is still intact. There's classical art and film that are valid today just as any other creation.
It's kind of weird to generalize all old games as "bad" when there are so many different kinds of them. I dislike point and click adventure games but I don't know if I would say they've "aged" so much as I think they were bad to begin with. On the other hand I've never had a problem with cinematic platformers and their realistic tanky controls, it'd be so easy to write them off as a relic from an old era without actually considering the actual intention that went into them. You have to have a preference for it, not just an "old soul." Or whatever.
I wouldn't say kids are spoiled these days though. I think due to channels like AVGN and speedrunning there are still a lot of young people that will play anything retro and new. But there's only so much time in a human's life to play games so the difference now is that there's just a lot more choices and avenues to explore. I don't look back at the past as some outdated abyss to avoid, but more of a way to learn and take ideas from. Because there are a lot of subgenres and mechanics that have not been explored at all and are just sitting there.
It's kind of weird to generalize all old games as "bad" when there are so many different kinds of them. I dislike point and click adventure games but I don't know if I would say they've "aged" so much as I think they were bad to begin with. On the other hand I've never had a problem with cinematic platformers and their realistic tanky controls, it'd be so easy to write them off as a relic from an old era without actually considering the actual intention that went into them. You have to have a preference for it, not just an "old soul." Or whatever.
I wouldn't say kids are spoiled these days though. I think due to channels like AVGN and speedrunning there are still a lot of young people that will play anything retro and new. But there's only so much time in a human's life to play games so the difference now is that there's just a lot more choices and avenues to explore. I don't look back at the past as some outdated abyss to avoid, but more of a way to learn and take ideas from. Because there are a lot of subgenres and mechanics that have not been explored at all and are just sitting there.
Shinan
4314
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-10-secrets-to-indie-game-success-and-why-they-do-not-exist-8d5acdff703d seems somewhat relevant to this topic.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Shinan
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-10-secrets-to-indie-game-success-and-why-they-do-not-exist-8d5acdff703dseems somewhat relevant to this topic.
Good freakin advice in this one! Memorize it!
author=kentona
damn. I knew it wasn't a get-rich-quick scheme, but I was secretly hoping it was a get-rich-slow scheme.
I would love for someone to do a Secret of Mana 3D remake on Oracle of Tao. So long as they kept all the non-graphic code intact and kept it quirky and weird. Complete with the odd clashing graphics (including overlays and outright photographs of mountains), weird text, feature creep, Taoist/Buddhist/etc religious weirdness, and shoutouts to pop culture. Oh yeah, and extremely weird code.
author=Shinan
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-10-secrets-to-indie-game-success-and-why-they-do-not-exist-8d5acdff703dseems somewhat relevant to this topic.
The Coffee's For Closers one. If I had a nickel for every game that looked masterpiece quality but they didn't even make a demo download... I managed to finish my Oracle of Tao, but a big reason that it wouldn't even get taken to some pro developer to put a shiny 3D skin on it is that (1) alot of the stuff is erm borrowed but even if they managed to do a custom graphic set that still had all the weird charm of the original, (2) I'd still have to stop tweaking it. And stop coming up with bugs that require a bugfix later cuz I added something but didn't want to play through loads of game to bugtest (I pay for it later twice, once for taking the Hero start out of its normal place because someone noticed something, and again for accidentally leaving the hero in a strange place because of this).
author=Soozauthor=ShinanGood freakin advice in this one! Memorize it!
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-10-secrets-to-indie-game-success-and-why-they-do-not-exist-8d5acdff703dseems somewhat relevant to this topic.
wow this is good.
StormCrow
2877
who has time to play indie games when everyones playing mmos, mobas and battle royales
I don't play none of that stuff. I also mostly don't play indie games, though--except on here, of course.
