VOTER FRAUD

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1. "Written fact." Yeah okay. My uncle comes from Detroit. He can give me a pretty good description of alot that's wrong with the city. And I've visited there. I would like to think I've got a better feel for the town than someone parroting off "facts" from a textbook. But sure, you keep keeping on.
2. The Democratic party has been the party of the KKK for years. Then the civil rights movement passed, and they took all credit for it, acting like the black voter's best friend. Well now, if those guys are such good friends... I've been poor before. Tell me why 2/3 of all people collecting in such foodstamp and welfare places are black or other minority? I mean, if they REALLY care for such people, shouldn't the first thing on their minds to eliminate poverty and unemployment? Black unemployment in America is actually down from Obama's period to Trump's. That is, there are less blacks unemployed now than there were during the height of Obama's reign. But this isn't covered by CNN or the like. It would be politically inconvenient to mention that. Instead, let's call a blanket list of things hate. "Everything I disagree with is hatred." Enforcing quotas to invite more Hispanics or Arabs or whatever is currently trendy is racism in effort to prove one is not racist. Conservatives have no time for this bullshit. I am concerned with the fact that despite so called homophobia or transphobia (I'm LGBT and trans, I don't vote Democrat and I've never seen such slurs as a result), I have a job and intend to keep one. In fact, historically, I've gotten the most grief from liberals. Town of Richmond, at prime shopping district? Wouldn't even hire me. Might as well have said "we don't want your KIND here." Went home, to mostly conservative town? No real issues. Bottom line? I'm far more afraid of liberals coming to hurt me than conservatives. Everyone accepted me here. Not everything you read in the news happens to be true.
3. Uhhhh, no they don't. Look, it seems like a medical emergency that you have a long term condition. But there are millions of people who managed to survive before universal health insurance proposed by Obama. They took took control of their salt or sugar or whatever intake, they kept active, and they only used their medical insurance when there was something they really couldn't pay for (like a sudden heart attack). This lack of use of hospitals keeps costs low, because they are not constantly using resources on people who are only sorta sick. In other words, if you're lactose intolerant, stop getting regular prescriptions to let your body adjust, just don't drink milk.
Also, if you look at this program, it's intentionally designed to fail. It's designed to be so bureaucratic and oppressive that people will eventually decide to go to single payer. And why not, you ask? Because it costs the taxpayer $32 billion. Do I need to spell out how much per year you're likely to pay for insurance? And what if you don't want to use insurance?
Since I stopped having insurance, I've gone to the doctor a grand total of... (wait for it) zero times. This includes the dentist. Human beings need food, water, rest, love, and occasionally physical and/or emotional intimacy. Medical insurance is NOT a right, nor a human need. We did without for centuries. We can do so again. Say I have asthma. My life is over if I run too fast. I NEED medical help, right? Well, maybe not. https://www.wikihow.com/Control-Asthma-Without-Medicine
"Pfft! your textbook facts have nothing on my anecdoctal stories!"

"Cancer? quit being a baby! back in my day we just tilled the ground until we got over it!"
it's too late, bulma is already on too much brainforce+
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
1. I'm glad your uncle was born here. It's nice that you've visited. I've lived here my entire life. I have said that four times now. Read my posts before you respond, and then go read a book. You're trying and failing to weaponize the plight of millions as a bullet point for your imaginary facts. Your anecdotes won't save you here. Use real, recorded history.

2. False. The KKK is on record as supporting Trump. They're proud of it. David Duke runs as a Republican. Richard Spencer, a white supremacist, is a proud conservative.

I'm also queer and I've had and seen hatred and ignorance visited on myself and people I care about by both Republicans and Democrats. Again, your personal anecdotes and experiences don't apply to everyone. Trump is on record as being against equal rights for transgender and LGBTQ folks in many forms. Democrats waffle on the issue, but Republicans don't - they value "traditional" lifestyles and family over civil rights, and are actively working against equal rights for queer folks.

3. It is both an embarrassment and show of our country's weakness that we allow citizens to suffer disease because we're too cheap to pay for it, because we have the wealth to solve it. Things being acceptable in the past (they weren't) doesn't excuse making the same mistakes today.

This has been nice practice though, it's been a while since I've gotten to have a good old-fashioned political throwdown. It feels like I'm shaking off the rust for Thanksgiving, hah. Moving away from my family has weeded out a lot of the bullshit stereotypes and horrible beliefs in my life. I forgot how often people just make up stuff and yell it without thinking :P
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
I'm a thirty-three year old white man. Also from Detroit. I went to a conservative catholic high school. The vast majority of my family are deeply conservative. I have been around conservative people my whole life.

When I look at the millennial conservative scene on Twitter, in elections, in who's running the think-tanks and writing the think pieces, I notice a couple things.

I notice that fiscal conservatism is non-existent. They are not 'dying out', they are extinct. They do not exist in the Millenial conservative universe. They are not the people who are going to be running, winning elections ,and directing the next generation of conservative thought. Young conservatism is dominated 100% by people playing to the Infowars crowd. People who are openly grifters, grifting in broad daylight.

Who's calling the shots? White nationalists. People promoting racial animus and a strong desire to lash out against, women, feminists, """SJWs""" or any attempts on progress or equality. They don't care about fiscal policy or spending except as means to hurt their enemies, so don't let them tell you they think its important.

There is a startling disconnect with reality. There is nothing so ridiculous that they won't trumpet it to any audience. Jade Helm, Obama is a secret muslim terrorist, the UN is coming to take our guns, etc. These aren't fringe thoughts, they are mainstream. They say fact checkers are biased because their positions almost never line up with the facts. They insist upon their own 'facts,' yours must be wrong and bad and stupid, because their positions never survive interrogation or often even the barest scrutiny.

They try to use liberal talking points against them, but badly because they don't understand them. If you use a term against a conservative online, they'll probably try to throw it back at you in some other, wrong context. This is why they try to accuse their opponents of being 'the real racists,' 'the real sexists.' They shout these things at their opponents because it's just what they think liberals do.

You can't fact check people like this because they don't care what the facts are. That's why 'fake news' has become such a rallying cry. They just insist anything they don't like is made up.

This is the future of American conservatism, and there's literally nothing good in it. Nothing. Everything they say is horseshit. Every syllable.

American conservatism's future is a white nationalist movement, and I genuinely fear what will happen if it gets what it wants.
Does it count as "extinct" if it never existed? Or do you just mean fiscal conservatism as a talking point of taking away social services to fund blowing up brown people or tax cuts for the rich?
First off, I 100% stand by my assertion that assassinating Trump is a fundamentally sane (and heroic, and patriotic) action. I am backing off from this statement zero percent. He is not only the greatest threat to American Democracy since Hitler, he is also the greatest threat to world geopolitical stability since Hitler. The fact that some clever internet debater once invented an axiom called "Godwin's Law" does literally nothing to change this. The only negative of Trump's death would be the very real possibility that it might kick off, as I once heard someone very cynically refer to it, "Civil War Part II". I was not alone in suffering a mental breakdown when Trump was elected. For starters, as a Christian I find it utterly appalling. This man is a venal, utterly selfish, egomaniacal cretin and his very existence repudiates every single Christian value. Secondly, as an intelligent person, it terrified me that the country had fallen into the hands of a complete and utter moron. Finally, as a progressive and a classical liberal, it terrified me because he was an avowed, unrepentant racist, sexist xenophobe. It is not inaccurate to say that I was proud to be an American until Trump was elected, and have not been since. Possibly that is the single thing I hate him the most for is that I can no longer honestly say I love my country or that I'm proud of it, which used to be a big part of my identity.

I feel less than zero shame for wanting Trump dead. What's that word for the opposite of shame? Oh yeah: pride.

Now let me try to respond to a thing or two here or there in this thread without it RUINING my entire day. This means I'm probably going to say some facts without proper citations. Oh well. I'll try to mostly stick to stating my opinions.

author=slash
The idea that GOP encourage "hard work" and liberals encourage "giving away free stuff" is laughable and easily disproven. It's based off the Republican idea that we live in a meritocracy - a society where hard work leads to success. Historically, however, the most hyper-successful people are those who have either inherited wealth or created it through evil means. Our president was made from his father's fortunes. Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon and Richest Man In The World, makes $4,000 a second because his company has been fraught with worker abuse and underpayment for a decade - "hard work" didn't lead to his wealth; creating a monopoly that screws its workers did. And as a resident of Michigan, the result of our governor "running the state like a business" led to an environmental disaster than has been plaguing a major city for years.

The GOP's policies do nothing to encourage hard work - they benefit corporations, not employees. The theory is that giving a corporation more money (by cutting taxes) will help their workers, but historically, companies will just give themselves and the stockholders bigger bonuses. The lion's share of the benefit goes to a small, wealthy group, once again. This is not a meritocracy, and Republican fiscal policies do not benefit those who work hard - they benefit those who already have money, and those who make the rules.

Preach, brother! I agree with 99.9% of what you're saying here. The only amendment I'd make is that successful businessmen, successful conservatives, and successful conservative businessmen may very well be very, very hard workers. I had cause to know a millionaire Libertarian and he did indeed work very, very hard and in fact his family was one of those that had come from nothing, absolute dirt-poor poverty.

However, what Republicans and Libertarians seem to find impossible to perceive is that the Mexican-American single mother working double shifts at McDonald's to try and feed her three kids or the white kid whittling his life away at a GameStop while he desperately tries to monetize his indie game design career are working just as hard. These people just haven't had any of the breaks that they've had, and/or have made different choices. If you work equally hard, you're going to earn a lot more from Halliburton (like the bootstrapping Libertarian mentioned above) than say, trying to be a novelist or working as a vet tech.
I would say then, that you are probably looking at a stereotype. A funhouse mirror.

Here's what I see.

There are a few distinct categories of people:
  • Guns and God conservatives
  • God Hates Blacks & Gays conservatives (yeah, kill these people)
  • RINOs (Republican In Name Only, claim to be conservative, have alot more in common with liberals, including how they spend their money)
  • Log Cabin conservatives (LGBT but have very traditional values as to how the country should look. Still pro-equality, but rather jaded about the idea that liberals make anything equal or do anything besides spend our money on programs that we "need". This is where I am, with a slice of direct democracy/anarchy thrown in)
  • True moderates (this makes up alot of the population, they don't have strong political opinions, they are pro-equality and pro-work and probably for a normal society. I have alot of this, though liberals have really made me hate them lately. I can't imagine why, looking at all these posts)
  • "Useful idiots" (These are people who are actually conservative, judging from their mindset, but are convinced of everything they read in the news including blatant lies. These are the people who support Hillary because they idealistically believe she supports some vague notion of equality, and that all people from the country are some sort of evil demonic people who are pure racists instead of everyday folk working at Walmart or Costco)
  • Well-seeming Marxists (what TvTropes calls Black Shirts. These are people who seem normal, but would prefer countries fall so they have what they want)
  • Liberal protestor types (people who don't have a day job, and spend all their time in one protest group or another)
  • Members of Antifa (masked hoodlums that smash everything)
  • Political agitators (of either party, people who intentionally stire up discord)

That's because liberals are real racists. I live in the county seat of a county with 4000 people, maximum. There are blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, and I think I met four people with the first or last name Muhammad (well, one was named Muhummud but yeah; this guy was traveling with a liberal black handler who struck me as "social worker" type). I worked at the library. Racism? What racism? We serve everyone. Then I see people here like "we need to hire according to quotas." "Oh? Why's that?" "Because... "(Two inches from their face) Why? Why? Why are really doing this?" If I pushed them like a bad cop, I would have a feeling they would start to sweat and dodge the question.

But I KNOW the answer. They are doing this because of shame. Why do Swedes take in a bazillion immigrants? After all, they've already made their point, they're friendly to outsiders. Because they can't be seen as having hateful thoughts. That wouldn't be nice or pleasant. Yes, and... ummm it's probably not nice or pleasant to shoo out Nazis prior to World War II, but as they start to kill your gays, Jews, Romani, and handicapped, it's probably time to be rude.

Here's the thing. When countries lose their core morality, they mistake being nice or being agreeable for actual virtue. Then when they see others refusing to do so, all a third party collaborator must do is turn around and tell them "those people are racists." No, actually, they're not. They're people who love their country. They like going into their small town and meet Billy Jack and Jim Bob. It does not matter if Billy Jack is actually Native American, and Jim Bob is actually a black woman. What matters is that these are their neighbors. Their families, their friends. But the left loathes these things. They control rent and shift populations to destabilize communities. They loathe our holidays, preferring to supplant them with foreign ones. The useful idiot falls for it. "yeah, they don't seem into the environment either." Do you think I don't like trees? Birds? Waterfalls? Etc? Of course I do! I live in the country. Meanwhile, city environmentalists want to tax me for using electric farm tools, while they have internet blog jobs typing about how green their electric car is. Hint: it's really not.

Here's what's really behind all this virtue signalling about how we've filled quotas or done things equally, or been environmentally conscious. As I say, shame. The average conservative grows up having a somewhat good idea of what they think is right and wrong, and actually feel shame productively. But they also know about grace. They know that people out there love them, not because they are some minority that can be exploited, but because they are worth loving. Liberals are worth loving too, but it starts by dropping the shame. So maybe sometimes you are racist. So what? You don't have to spend your whole life lying to yourself. You're human. You have flaws. It's OKAY. What isn't okay is trying to hide your feelings behind a mask of virtue. Trust me on this, 30 years of my life were wasted hiding what I felt inside. "Will people judge me if I come out as trans?" Yes. Who cares?
author=Bulma
In the case of "pre-existing conditions" which btw is a buzzword, we're gonna talk about Triage.

When an emergency room or a disaster site is overwhelmed with patients,it's important that the real medical professionals be able to sort patients out in order of who needs the most help. This is called the triage process. Specifically, a trained medical professional balances the patients' urgency, or need for care, and the likelihood of survival if they receive such care. It sounds morbid, but it really is the most efficient way to help the greatest number of people in a dire situation where there aren't enough doctors or nurses to help everyone at once.

The concept of triage originated during World War I, when medical staff were coping with mass numbers of injured soldiers. At this time, the triage system was relatively basic and included only three categories: those who would live without medical attention, those who would die even with medical attention, and those who would survive only if they received medical attention. Luckily, these horrific conditions are infrequent and people don't often have to make such difficult decisions that are literally ''life or death'' scenarios.

You seem like an otherwise intelligent guy (or whatever). WHY are you confusing an "ER or disaster site" with a NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

As someone who has/had friends that work professionally in medicine (and incidentally am developing a game where Triage is the Medic character's most important skill)? TRIAGE is a situation for TIMES OF WAR OR CRISIS where the available doctors and nurses are hopelessly overrun by cases/casualties. It is NOT a philosophy of medicine.

author=bulma
This not only saves money, it saves lives.

Well, when you list them in that order, we can certainly see where your priorities are.

Here is what is broken and sick and toxic and cancerous in this country: the profit motive existing within the healthcare system at all. It needs to be stripped out. Anything less than fully socialized medicine is retarded. (And incidentally, virtually every perk and benefit Americans like about being Americans is a watered down form of socialism.)

author=bulma
When you force people to treat all people with insurance because of some government mandate, you hamstring Triage. That dying person with the incurable disease will be kept alive (even against their wishes), the person you could have treated, the hospital is now understaffed for the man with multiple stab wounds, and the person who has a simple cold now has doctors working to cure their cold which will go away on its own.

Bulma:

I have (and was born with the inevitable genetic markers of) a disease (a pre-existing condition) from which I will eventually die even with medical intervention. In other words, Triage Category II.

But I will die a hell of a lot slower and a hell of a lot less painfully with medicine and surgery than without any treatment. According to your philosophy of medicine, are you seriously suggesting I should just be left to fucking die because my long term prognosis is inevitably death?

You know what doesn't happen in the time-frames where a Triage might actually be applicable? ADVANCEMENT OF MEDICAL SCIENCE.

author=bulma
Cancer is actually in two triage categories. Most people die within five years (despite insufferable people with anecdotal stories about how their cousin beat cancer with chemo, the fact is that it costs roughly 10x what effective medicine should, and their recovery has more to do with them being supportive and helpful than chemo which without help, fails roughly 95% of the time). However dietary studies have found that a lower sugar and low additive diet helps curb the growth of certain cancers, massively So either they die despite the hospitals, or the live without them. In either case, the doctors don't REALLY cure cancer.

Man I am not even going to fucking TOUCH this one. You have some SERIOUSLY fucked up misconceptions about the disease that has killed virtually every relative I have that has died in my lifetime.


Lots of liberals are idiots, most young white people are idiots, and nearly all young white liberals are fucking idiots. You'll get no argument from me there. These well-meaning white liberals' attitudes are actually immensely condescending, racist, infantilizing bullshit. In other news, the sky is blue.

"libtards be dumb" is not an argument in favor of Trump, the profit motive in healthcare, or anything else but that "libtards be dumb" which yeah...duh?
author=Solitayre
I'm a thirty-three year old white man. Also from Detroit. I went to a conservative catholic high school. The vast majority of my family are deeply conservative. I have been around conservative people my whole life.

...

This is the future of American conservatism, and there's literally nothing good in it. Nothing. Everything they say is horseshit. Every syllable.

American conservatism's future is a white nationalist movement, and I genuinely fear what will happen if it gets what it wants.

As one liberal to another, has it ever occurred to you that your rejection of and rebellion against your conservative upbringing was a major contributing factor in your rather extreme view of American conservatism?

author=Solitayre
Who's calling the shots? White nationalists. People promoting racial animus and a strong desire to lash out against, women, feminists, """SJWs""" or any attempts on progress or equality. They don't care about fiscal policy or spending except as means to hurt their enemies, so don't let them tell you they think its important.

So, you're absolutely right about who's calling the shots in American society. But the flip side of the coin is that SJWs (I feel no need to insulate it with three layers of scare quotes) have an equally problematical lock down on American culture. In a dozen different ways white people are being shamed and shit on for being born wrong and held accountable for things that chances are even their ancestors didn't do. Anti-white racism (it's a thing-really, I just don't have the time to find the at-least a dozen articles (which incidentally, is sickening) to Q.E.D. it) is running rampant throughout our culture.

As South Park explains beautifully in this video, SJWs essentially created and empowered the White Nationalist movement in our country. While we must never forget that the White Nationalist movement is WORSE than SJWs, we must also always remember that SJWs created it. I'm not saying there weren't White Racists before there were identity politics race-baiting radicals. I'm saying that the SJWs provided pressure and cause for the White Nationalist movement to organize.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-johnson-civil-rights-racism

Yeah. Like I say, liberals are racists. But like I also said last post, it doesn't matter. What matters is knowing it, and coping with it. Will you bend over backwards to try to accomodate racial minorities out of a sense of guilt, even when doing so does more harm than good? Or will you say, "Tbh, I do discriminate. Everyone does to some extent. I'll try not to make a habit of it, but I won't appease assholes either."

I'm not going to talk about healthcare, instead I'm gonna talk about my prioritizing money over life, and the very thing you got upset about.

And yes, healthcare is about saving money. Doctors talk all they want to people about how virtuous they are. They're a bunch of fiends. Scum of the earth.

"40 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

This was Jesus speaking of the priests of his day. But he could have been speaking of the average doctor today. They bleed families dry, using their guilt to ruin them, they feel no remorse about the fact that there are minimal and even effective treatments, but those are being suppressed or dismissed as quackery, so you can't even try them. Nope, chemo, surgery, and radiation, those are your options.

Actually, a change in diet helps. Actually quitting coffee in some cases reverses cancer. Actually, antioxidants and regular exercise help. Nah, don't talk about that, I want to pull out a loved one's internal organs despite the fact that makes them weaker and this reduces their immunity. Chemotherapy is also immunosuppressant. And radiation kills healthy cells. None of these are good for you. Why are they prescribing them? And why aren't they telling you about anything proven effective? Besides, of course, those big three, which all weaken the body.

author=AlsoTheBible
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Money is not important. But it represents something important to you. In this case, time with your family lost, because sick people valued profit over life, omitting any other treatment as options. That's why I valued it first, because doctors despite their fancy robes do. They wrecked my grandma's neck trying to fix it. Don't you think you should be able to boycott them if you feel like me? Not pay their salary when you don't believe in the process?

Will you also feel no remorse, as you pay their salary through insurance? Or don't you think it's time to fight back against the people who robbed you of your family? You should be angry. I'm angry at being forced to choose between no insurance and shit insurance at more cost than I can afford. I'm angry at feeling like I burdened my mom and dad who were willing to pay because they thought I wanted insurance more than I wanted to just not see them stressed.

I am assigning you homework, StormCrow. Goto Netflix or Amazon and rent First Do No Harm. Not gonna watch it? Here, it's about a mother who kid, like me, had seizures. She gives the kid all kinds of medicines, only to find out from another mother that eventually all these drugs have a toxic effect on the system, after losing at least one kid to them. She goes outside the box, and finds out about a doctor who prescribes a ketogenic diet. Guess what? It works, those big pharma doctors were all wrong, and basically almost killed her kid.
ESBY
extreme disappointment
1238
imagine having access to history books and still believing that white nationalism in america is a new phenomena and the fault of "sjws"

lol
Oh god. Yeah, that's enough of this shit.
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