[MAFIA] MAFIA - BEHIND THE MASK - GAME OVER

Posts

Caves chart wins. I dont even need to see liberties. The s tier in particular is spot on.

Also libby, still not giving up my knowledge yet.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
I think this is what I said about her addressing Odd, that...I think you're referring to? Gonna be honest piano, I townread you here but have no idea what you're referencing half the time. Quotes would be helpful.

refusal to comment on odd even though he made like, a very clearly contradictory sentence, which, if nothing else, should elicit an opinion. about something.


In AlaskanEmily's case there's nothing to quote. She was accusing Libby of being opportunistic over a joke vote. She never mentioned oddRABBIT. I can't really quote you either since you didn't actually make a case on Libby, not even a poorly conceived one. You just voted. AE didn't. You are the first to actually point to oddRABBIT. And she answers.

AlaskanEmily
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
How do you feel about oddrabbit
I feel nothing about OddRabbit yet. This feels to me very similar to how he was acting when he was being accused of being scum in Spy v Spy.

I need more than 2 actual sentences of game from him to say anything more meaningful and not so purely speculative.

To be honest, my top lynch pick is CAVE right now, solely because I felt like he posted that 3D graph late into the joke phase, but still it felt oddly early to be bringing out those kinds of memes. So far I've only seen him do that when he thinks he has the game solved. For some reason that felt out of character for him...which I realize is a strange thing to say about CAVE.


The fence-sitting was more in reference to liberty.


Let's look at those posts again.

AlaskanEmily
Haha, I was reading the previous page and thinking "hey Liberty that's not cool" and I guess I'm not the only one.

I mean, it's so OBVIOUSLY opportunistic I'm unsure what I think about. Like, it's scummy, but it's so clumsily scummy.

I'm also not sure I think that Demon apparently figured out a part of the rules we can all see before us is much of a tell. I always think demon is less than something but more than nothing though.

I should also do this:

#cancel


You're making a fair point here, but I'm not so sure I'd call it fence-sitting just because she didn't vote Libby. She just canceled her vote on shinan.

I also don't know what demonlord post referencing odd not being scum you're talking about.


I linked it, put it right in the middle of my post, and isolated it on its own line. You're refusing to address my point that demon's comment was as scummy as oddRABBIT's, and you're further refusing to answer why you ignored the comment by pretending to be unable to see a link that cannot be missed.

This all feels kind of tangential though, the things you're talking about. The hedgey stuff and me somehow being strongest scumread for a graph is secondary now. AE straight up changed her story several times instead of just saying "oops I was wrong about the posting times" and each time the story hasn't made sense. I don't understand the town motivation to do this, or the motivation to not like, vote me if she thinks I'm arguing in bad faith.


I'll look again.

Nope. First she didn't scum-read odd. Then when you pressed, she ignored you.

I also misread her. She does indeed engage with oddRABBIT, but it's blink and you'll miss it.

AlaskanEmily
author=oddRABBIT
I'm totally town, I'll even go as far as to reveal my hero identity to prove it.
How does that prove anything?


So, no. She actually doesn't change her story, and she's even being honest about slightly needling him.

In fact, after posting that twice, here are the next four quotes from her:

AlaskanEmily
You're right, when I ask about a contradiction and get no answer I should just drop it. Ignoring weird or subtly wrong things people say is a great tactic.


This is a snarky response to you, LINKED HERE!!! https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894882#post894882 who accuse her of continually harping on oddRABBIT, even though I just showed you what she posted. She posted the exact same thing twice on the same page. Apparently, this is harping.

Next post:

AlaskanEmily
Yes, I do think that the statement Odd made was scummy. Only scum would be safe when revealing their identity, it looks like a possible perspective slip to me. It's a pretty big mistake to make otherwise.

author=pianotm
Yeah, the more I read that post, the worse it looks to me. AE's being aggressive and callous. It's like she's forgotten that joke votes are a thing.


Read my posts again, when this was mentioned I realized that was probably true and said so.


She includes the context here. Here I am, going over her posts.

AlaskanEmily
That quote of me is from before Odd said what I was pointing out. So nothing changed about those first two posts of his, I decided to needle him about that later post once he posted it.

For why that's more safe for scum to reveal their identity, they wouldn't be opened up to the nightkill/unmask by doing so...because they are scum.


I've already gone over the first sentence in this post. The second sentence...is really bad logic, but it's not scummy. She hasn't changed her story yet. I trust you'll point it out when she does.

AlaskanEmily
I also am having that funny feeling that Cave is arguing against me in bad faith...I'm having to explain things where he is just flat out wrong, like the order of posts.


I've been seeing that for awhile. So far, you've made up the idea that she's been changing her story, and you have indeed been ignoring her defense.

AlaskanEmily
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894813#post894813https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894846#post894846
Yes, and you think I went after him for that post?

When he later made a post I thought was strange, I asked him about it, he didn't respond, so I asked again, and then you decided to go after me and refuse to understand that as people say more things, I can change my mind about them. You see, as Odd said more things, I thought more things about him, and when he didn't respond to my question, well that made me thing another things too.

That's what changed from my first post about him and my later ones. He posted things in between. I know, that's pretty hard to understand.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
All of this put together reads to me like scum who can't engage with the case on them so they just go after the easiest mark.


CAVE, you have never once read me right. This feels very much like the time you went after me for utterly bullshit reasons, and that time you ended up being scum.

You know what, let's really do this.

#lynch AlaskanAmily

Every game CAVE has gone after me. The time it felt like bad faith (and I said so), I was right and he was scum. He feels exactly the same to me now, where he subtly misunderstands whatever I say and refuses to engage on my points when I tell him why he's wrong, and then says I'm just playing scum badly. If you really believe his bullshit, let's see how right he is.


And the last one. Odd has indeed posted since you started this argument with AE, and he did indeed say things that make me think he's not scum, but anti-town.

I also can't forget that you deliberately ignored a link I put in the middle of a post where you'd have to be blind to miss it just to facilitate a facetious claim that I wasn't pointing to anything demon said.

#Lynch CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
I'm not really seeing the AE case. "Going after Odd as the easiest mark" really only works if scum had a strong motive to get a train rolling immediately, and I think scum usually tries for bigger targets d1 (never seen AE as scum before though I guess). re: needling him, she asked me a similar question that was pointless except as a "I think your understanding of the mechanics is faulty" check and I don't think doing it to Odd either means anything, given that she never actually voted him. The timing wasn't great (it came after my vote iirc) that made it look like it might be leading onto a vote for him but that's about it. I considered whether scum would try a suicide-vote so as to get more unmask attempts but that seems very dumb.

I'll reread her stuff I didn't see anything as shifting explanation in way that struck me as scummy. My biggest mark against her is the timing of the requoted question.

I don't buy cave/AE being a performance either. It's slightly odd to me that cave is so invested in this case that I don't really see, but that's about it.

Liberty is fine. Shinan is Shinan, although his no-kill stuff was alright. Gourd I still think is OK, that quote that cave posted would be my only reason to vote against him and just because it offers no information or action, basically white noise post.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
author=OzzyTheOne
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
the chart allows for a possibility where is alive 9 town are alive. Oh I figured it out....JUST NOW. we would have to kill scum twice in a row while they killed nobody night 1. I forgot this could happen due to the lack of a traditional night kill. but you know who didn't forget: demonlord, and thats because he knows there's no traditional night kill, because it was in his role PM. and if he wants to rebuke this argument, I'm afraid the rebuttal will have to be at least 3000 words.
This post, I hate this post, it's so incredibly idiotic. Specially because of this part

I forgot this could happen due to the lack of a traditional night kill. but you know who didn't forget: demonlord, and thats because he knows there's no traditional night kill, because it was in his role PM.


Excuse me, but what? I don't know if you're joking in this post, but we can all read at the very start of the thread that there is no traditional nightkill. I really don't know what you're trying to imply here by saying Demonlord knows there's not traditional nightkill due to his PM, it's public knowledge that there is not traditional nightkill.

This post is the one that made me feel bad about the entire CAVE/Demon debacle earlier, this post is bad. And I am now deeply convinced that either one of CAVE or Demon is scum, or that both are scum and that them going at each other that early in the game was just for show. Because neither had a very good argument ont he other and knew that the hunt woudl quickly gravitate to other reads.

The throwaway case seems entirely in character, I don't think that merits a vote.
I...didn't ignore shit? I asked you to quote it because I had no idea what you were vaguely referencing.
think this is what I said about her addressing Odd, that...I think you're referring to? Gonna be honest piano, I townread you here but have no idea what you're referencing half the time. Quotes would be helpful.


this is actually the exact opposite of ignoring. I didn't even make a claim that you weren't pointing to things demon had said.

look:

That quote of me is from before Odd said what I was pointing out. So nothing changed about those first two posts of his, I decided to needle him about that later post once he posted it.


"The thing I kept quoting was from a post he made after my initial post where I said there was nothing from him to read."

Yes, and you think I went after him for that post?

When he later made a post I thought was strange, I asked him about it,


AE was, in fact, going after Odd for the post I quoted, because it's the post she quoted several times when trying to get an answer out of him. Other than it being a pointless line of questioning, this was the only post Oddrabbit made between AE's initial "there's nothing to read there" and interrogation of him.

author=oddRABBIT
Here's my guess. How suspicious of me to post a list of who I think are the culprits!

Scum: kittenfood, CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK, OzzyTheOne

Town: Everyone else.


So if this is the post that pings AE that odd is scum....why isn't she asking him about THIS? This is also, yes, a completely wildly different explanation from "I posted first" and there would be no need for town to lie about it.

You see, as Odd said more things, I thought more things about him, and when he didn't respond to my question, well that made me thing another things too.

That's what changed from my first post about him and my later ones. He posted things in between. I know, that's pretty hard to understand.


see above.
Jeroen_Sol
This time... I will revive mafia for sure... GIVE MY CREATURE LIFE!
3945
Official votecount as of 2019-10-19, 22:52 UTC:

Shinan - 0: AlaskanEmily
demonlord5000 - 1: CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK, Liberty
Liberty - 1: CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK, demonlord5000
pianotm - 1: Shinan
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK - 2: pianotm, pianotm, OzzyTheOne, pianotm
oddRABBIT - 2: pianotm, psy_wombats, Fomar0153
AlaskanEmily - 3: CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK, pianotm, AlaskanEmily, kittenfood

Not voting - 2: oddRABBIT, Gourd_Clae

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end 2019-10-20, 18:00 UTC, in about 19 hours.
when did it become acceptable for players besides me to blatantly just lie

author=psy_wombats
Gourd I still think is OK, that quote that cave posted would be my only reason to vote against him and just because it offers no information or action, basically white noise post.


i've come around to thinking liberty is probably town, too. I think it's the secret chart that has swayed me. I'm not going to go through the effort of making a case on him but I would vote gourd.

lurkers should be dealt with, but I think it's better to wait until we have the benefit of garbage night action information that we can't actually reveal in thread to do so, plus the votes will tell us nothing.
Going after Odd as the easiest mark" really only works if scum had a strong motive to get a train rolling immediately, and I think scum usually tries for bigger targets d1


the motive exists if someone else is casing you.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK said something read as this
I didn't ignore anything! You didn't quote! Gaslight! Gaslight! Gaslight!


pianotm
I don't know if it's just him being on mobile, but I do agree with Ozzy that Demon is really off this game. I just went over his posts and it does not sound like him at all. Odd and AE are at least consistent with their mannerisms. Demon seems completely unfamiliar to me, but there's something he specifically says that jumps out at me. I think a few people have mentioned it. I just haven't really paid attention to demon until now.


IF IT WERE A SNAKE, IT WOULD BITE YOU, CAVE!

https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894810#post894810


The whole AE/Cave interaction, which looks weird enough in and of itself distracted me. Cave accuses AE of ho-humming over odd's scummy comments when in fact she never addressed them at all, while she claims that she pressed odd about something before backing off when in fact, she hasn't even interacted with odd at all. This feels like a dance. It's weird. I feel like they can't both be scum, but they're definitely both doing a shuck and jive. The timing of demon's post on odd definitely not being scum based knowledge is funny. CAVE completely passes over that and goes straight for AE. AE is probably fast-talking her way out of trouble, but what's going on with this makes me think she's town. Her claim that she pressed odd could easily be passed off as Cave having interrogated her so hard she started to actually think she'd interacted with odd at one point. Cave doesn't have that excuse (because he doesn't mess up like that), and it looks like jumping AE is a distraction from demon.
Um, yes, again, I asked you to quote it because I had no idea what you were referencing or what it has to do with me. I don't know how that demonlord post fits into the context of your paragraphs. This is literally the opposite of ignoring something. What does this have to do with me being scum again? Can I talk to someone else?
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
author=oddRABBIT
Here's my guess. How suspicious of me to post a list of who I think are the culprits!

Scum: kittenfood, CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK, OzzyTheOne

Town: Everyone else.


So if this is the post that pings AE that odd is scum....why isn't she asking him about THIS? This is also, yes, a completely wildly different explanation from "I posted first" and there would be no need for town to lie about it.

You see, as Odd said more things, I thought more things about him, and when he didn't respond to my question, well that made me thing another things too.

That's what changed from my first post about him and my later ones. He posted things in between. I know, that's pretty hard to understand.


see above.


This is not true. Odd posts this directly after her first question:
oddRABBIT
Here's the problem, though, CAVE. Every single game, I base myself entirely on instinct. That's all I'm doing here, in this instance, as well. While my voice may have become much more verbally abrasive, my actual deductive ability is as null as it always is.

Basically, in the case of my death, where it's revealed I'm completely normal town, those are my guesses for this game. I'm hoping that it's somehow useful, since I don't think my deductive reasoning is anywhere near useful.


Though, I'll admit she posts again.
Yes, so that second oddrabbit post had nothing to do with the initial query.

I linked it, put it right in the middle of my post, and isolated it on its own line. You're refusing to address my point that demon's comment was as scummy as oddRABBIT's, and you're further refusing to answer why you ignored the comment by pretending to be unable to see a link that cannot be missed.


Ok, you're referring to this? I don't understand what you think is bad about demonlord's post, I don't read it as scummy, and I don't understand why this post completely unrelated to my case is a point of contingency.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894810#post894810
demonlord5000
As piano said, odd is always like this. I'm tempted to vote for him, but seeing I'm town its definitely not interior knowledge, but I can't ignore the possibility of him trying to get close to me.

I'd prefer to vote liberty or cave, but I'd support an odd vote if it came to it.


And here is the very next post.

https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24828/?post=894813#post894813
oddRABBIT
I'm totally town, I'll even go as far as to reveal my hero identity to prove it.

Granted, I may be going back to my first ever game, where I do nothing and then basically pretend to be scum the entire time.


You don't say a thing about the demonlord post.
i...yeah. why would I.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
OddRABBIT says demon was scum, but he's probably town, and that's scummy to you.

Demonlord says that because he's town, oddRABBIT doesn't have "interior" knowledge.

What made you fixate on either one of them?
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
21740
Let me clarify: I know you fixated on one but not the other. What made one scummier than the other?
i'm....i'm not voting either one of them.... my posts about oddrabbit were made before he made that second post you just quoted. I pointed out that odd's post about odd being sure of demonlord's alignment despite not having a read on him was weird. This post came first, demonlord had not posted the thing you quoted yet, so of course I wouldn't mention it. But even if they were made right after one another, demonlord's post is totally different. It doesn't contain the inherent contradiction I thought was weird in odd's post. I think. I'm only 75% sure that I'm reading it correctly. In any case I dropped Odd because I felt AE was a better path to travel down.
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
author=Gourd_Clae
odd's wishy washy read was Not Good but honestly I don't feel that bad about.I agree with emily he would need to speak more for me to give any strong opinions on the matter.

psy townreading me is alarming lol

I don't think cave posting a graph is an indicator for his scumminess but I still have reservations about cave so maybe I'm wrong idk. I think Emily's argument would be good if it were true that cave only posts joke graphs when he thinks he has the game figured out but I don't think that is true.

Liberty is the most scummy in my opinion. cave I wouldn't mind killing today either. Liberty and cave are not both mafia though - I think it's a one or the other kind of situation
wildcard fourth execution option

Advocating to lynch (one of the only people at the time of that post) who is suspicious of you is not helping you look any better.

I'm a little lost on this whole emily vs cave thing. I might have to go over that entire exchange but its so... Long. It looks like piano has a good grasp on the situation. If it seems like cave is being unreasonable I will probably throw a vote on cave bc tbh he has given me enough reason this day phase.