HONG KONG

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Is anyone following what's been happening in Hong Kong?

What's your take on it?
Do you think the 5 demands are justified?
Are they going to happen?
Was Blizzard right in the way it managed its apology?
What about the NBA?

It's a lot of questions which could probably have a thread on their own but I figured I'd throw all the topics and see where the conversation goes.
I think they deserve the demands, though I know too little to say much, really. As far as I know they are not trying to break away from China completely, which China definitely doesn't want, they only wish to keep their rights. I think that's a win-win in the end. Does that make Hong Kong keep a special position? Yeah, and I am cool with that, more good = good. The power distribution tho .. is not in their favor.

Also Blizzard's apology is silly (and I see no heartfelt apology or anything anywhere).The only 'right' in that apology is PR. More praise for Blizz values in that than anything else, and so vague it cannot be pinned down. Do I see why they do it? Sure. Doesn't make it better, though. Not because of the way they handled Blitzchung, but the way they handled banning (fired at first, I believe) their 100% innocent casters. Banning innocent bystanders is the biggest silencing swoop you could make. What political statement did the casters make? None. The player was aware he'd likely be banned and was prepared for that - he wasn't prepared to take down innocent bystanders. Others who wish to do similar will take note not to. And others who may do so afterwards may and will be accused of being selfish for knowingly putting others in harm's way beyond themselves in the name of protest.

What's your take on it?
The Chinese Communist Party is a repressive totalitarian regime with a documented track record of human rights violations including open concentration camps and the organ harvesting of political dissidents. Their foreign policy with other countries, known as the Belt And Road Initiative/Forum, is a thinly veiled, modernized version of 17-18th century British colonialism : Lend money at an exorbitant interest rate, then seize strategic assets as collateral when they inevitably default. Corporate strategy is to buy foreign companies, steal the patents, shut down the factories and move production to Vietnam (used to be China, but Vietnam is now China's China). The wealth gap is more atrocious in their "communism" than in any western country. Fun Fact : 1/3 of China's billionaires are CCP Parliament officials. Cronyism much?
Not to mention the nightmare dystopia-in-the-making that is the Social Credit System.
These are just off the top of my head.
I might be a little biased, but I want Hong Kong to win, whatever that entails. I hope the democratic fervor spreads to Taiwan and the mainland, and the CCP is overthrown and it's party members all tried and convicted for everything under the sun.

Do you think the 5 demands are justified?
The Five Demands, to save folks some look-up time.
1) Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
2) A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality
3) Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”
4) Amnesty for arrested protesters
5) Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive


(1) is a Life-or-Death issue for everybody in Hong Kong. The CCP has a 99.9% conviction rate in their trials, so being arrested in the dead of night and extradited to Hong Kong is a death sentence. The bill was finally killed just a week-and-a-half ago, so that's a plus.
(2), (3), and (4) only emerged because the initial protests were allowed to reach this level of violence, and the demand for their fulfillment will only grow as time goes on.
(5) The intricacies would be better explained by someone who lives in Hong Kong, but the basic idea is freer elections. Nobody who enjoys the comforts of the western democracies has any right to say this isn't a worthy demand.

Are they going to happen?
It's honestly hard to say. The people of Hong Kong are tenacious, but the CCP can't afford to show weakness either. The Chinese economy is slowing, and if a democratic movement coincides with a recession, things could go badly for them...

Was Blizzard right in the way it managed its apology?
No opinion. I haven't kept tabs on it.

What about the NBA?
It's not a Chinese Basketball Association. It's just NBA games broadcasting in China.
I know, right?
One thing about China; once they discern what works and what doesn't, they build their own version of it and kick the original out.
The NBA is capitulating for access to that huge, sweet market, but in the next few years, after China organizes a few teams and establishes a league of their own, the NBA will be turfed anyway. Stupid idiots...
SunflowerGames
The most beautiful user on RMN!
13323

I live in Taiwan. As many know China claims Taiwan as part of its territory (Actually, the claim goes both ways, as Taiwan has a claim over China too. The Chinese civil war has never been resolved and is only in a stalemate. In practice Taiwan acts like a independent country though. A very democratic one too.)

Taiwan enjoys more autonomy from China than Hong Kong and Macau because of its distance from the mainland, it has its own army, and it has standing relations with many other countries. But that doesn't stop China from trying to interfere in elections or try to make other countries or organizations ignore Taiwan. The president of China has been on record as to saying he would take Taiwan by force if necessary. It's a scary thought to think China might one day follow through with that sort of threat.
I might be a little biased, but I want Hong Kong to win, whatever that entails.

I do too and I'm very interested in the whole thing.

I've heard the following opinion regarding the CCP giving in:
China can't afford to give in as it would create a precedent for the various ethnic groups in China who want to break free of the mainland. Hong Kong might start a domino effect which triggers other insurrections among Tibet and the Uygurs for example.

There's a lot at stake here for the mainland. I'm hearing different perceptions regarding the protesters with some saying that the movement is losing its momentum.

I've heard specialists saying the People Liberation Army wouldn't walk into Hong Kong to handle the situation but I wonder if things wouldn't change if the protests end up going on for too long.

It's too bad the protests have turned violent however as statistically peaceful protests have a greater chance of getting results. I don't blame them for doxxing the police officers or the actual violence, I can understand the frustration.






I'm glad this it getting lots more attention.

I only vaguely knew about the situation before Blizzard accidentally made it a big deal in the west (it's not covered much in the news), and from what little I knew I didn't think it would become something the world would pay attention to, until suddenly it was.

Their 5 demands seem reasonable enough to me. I really hope they get what they need.

Seriously, China's massive market power, plus their totalitarian regime that can weaponize it is honestly scary. (Not to mention all the other totalitarian stuff they get up to. Not to mention Tibet. Not to mention the concentration camps for the Uygurs. Not to mention that the organ harvesting of troublemakers in said camps is actually a thing I read about in a peer-reviewed article in an ethics class so it's most likely legit)

author=Toaster_Team
Was Blizzard right in the way it managed its apology?

The apology where they were like "We are sorry for this 'tough esports moment' that we aren't going to specify, and we ask that you watch our actions that we aren't going to name, while we don't change course at all"?

Yeah, I'm not buying it for a second.

Speaking of not buying it, I used to love Overwatch and it's relentlessly positive message, and I desperately wanted story missions and so on. But now? I can't in good conscience enjoy and support a "Yay, we should all be heroes standing up for justice in our own way!" type of game when the company that makes it is bowing to pressure by an authoritarian regime that wants to quash democracy, because it's scared of losing access to china's massive market. :s Sooo...Overwatch 2 may have all the stuff I ACTUALLY wanted out of the franchise, but I'd feel gross and hypocritical for buying it.

author=Dyhalto
One thing about China; once they discern what works and what doesn't, they build their own version of it and kick the original out.

This is one of those stereotypes that turns out to be firmly grounded in the truth.

My dad works in plastics, and several businesses he's worked for moved production to China, and every time he told them "Guys, they will LITERALLY use substandard materials in our parts unless we are checking every week, and in 6 months they'll be selling our own product in their name in their market". And every time, he was proven correct. EVERY. Single. Time.

China may have been communist once upon a time. Now, though? They're a totalitarian, fascist police state that does capitalism on a global level that would make most libertarians blush.

I REALLY hope that the chinese people manage to get out of that situation, but I have no idea how they'll do it.
Speaking of not buying it, I used to love Overwatch and it's relentlessly positive message, and I desperately wanted story missions and so on.


I don't think Blizzard was ever ethically involved with Overwatch. It's just a product to them for sure. I think it's important to dissociate a product for its producer. I think it's great that you are inspired by the message of the game but I certainly don't share your optimism regarding the humanity of corporations like Blizzard (or any corporation for that matter).

My take on the apology was a typical PR stunt. Case in point, they decided to issue an apology when their feet were put to the fire. Also, while they apologize, Blitzchung is still banned for 6 months. Talk about an apology.
author=Toaster_Team
I think it's important to dissociate a product for its producer.


I can. It's why the second that my old Borderlands Crew will finally have time to play, I'm going to pick up Borderlands 3, despite Randy Pitchford being a complete and total prick.

My issue is that if I want to support The Overwatch Team's hopeful message about seeking justice and helping people, I have to support and give money to a company that has demonstrably done the exact opposite by bowing to the whims of a totalitarian regime that violates human rights.

It feels like an extra deep layer of hypocrisy that I can't quite get past.
Overwatch's story/message is exactly what any given company stands for. Vague enough to be positive and complacent with most people while not commentating on anything specific. Aside from the occasional LGBT+ endorsement (which rings hollow depending on who you ask) and maybe the fantasy robo-racism being an allegory for something, there's no risk on Blizzard's part.

It's the same with Marvel movies where the issues being brought up barely comment on the current state of things. The profit motive is reliant on not wanting to rock the boat on any real world issue, intentional or not. Except in the instance that a very real person calling attention to a very real issue in the esports context, it's no longer avoidable for Blizzard to hide in the grey area.
Very well put.

I personally never thought Marvel Superhero movies were supposed to teach you anything meaningful as I've always seen them to be as a source of entertainment first and foremost. To quote Coppola:
"Personally I don’t like the idea of franchises, the notion that you can keep repeating what is essentially the same movie for financial gain — in other words, what is a formulaic approach.

I feel that approach is taken to reduce the economic risk of movies, and I feel the “risk factor” is an element that makes movies sometimes be great. Also, the formulaic film draws most available resources to them, leaving little for more daring productions, reducing diversity."

Just my opinion (and his).
To be fair to Marvel, the entire MCU, from Iron Man 1* to Avengers Endgame, is a masterpiece of our time. We can judge each movie individually on their own merits, but the real achievement of a contiguous 23 movie anthology is a historic landmark.
Anyway, I don't want to derail this into a Marvel discussion so I'll shut up now :D


*Technically The Incredible Hulk, but everybody kind of ignores it.
In other news:
Xi Jin Ping is showing support for Carrie Lamb despite the situation in Hong Kong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANmhYaKzmcg 1m42s
I find the non-verbal interesting here, the monarch sitting on his throne with a sheepish lamp with her arching back.

LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm not sure how this topic turned into a critique of the moral message of the Avengers movies, but it's definitely a way more productive discussion than the alternative.
I guess it depends what you mean by productive. I'd say sharing opinions about Marvel movies isn't productive. It could be fun to read and interesting but I wouldn't say it's "productive".

Maybe you're right in saying that discussing what's happening in Hong Kong isn't productive, I guess it depends what you consider to be the benefits of doing so.

Also, do conversations need to be productive? Who knows.

I knew literally nothing about any of this.

And I still know literally nothing about any of this because I don't have time to read this thread.

(I realize this is not my best post.)
Dyhalto took the time to write a concise and well written overview of the situation if you're so inclined to read it.
author=Dyhalto
What's your take on it?The Chinese Communist Party is a repressive totalitarian regime with a documented track record of human rights violations including open concentration camps and the organ harvesting of political dissidents. Their foreign policy with other countries, known as the Belt And Road Initiative/Forum, is a thinly veiled, modernized version of 17-18th century British colonialism : Lend money at an exorbitant interest rate, then seize strategic assets as collateral when they inevitably default. Corporate strategy is to buy foreign companies, steal the patents, shut down the factories and move production to Vietnam (used to be China, but Vietnam is now China's China). The wealth gap is more atrocious in their "communism" than in any western country. Fun Fact : 1/3 of China's billionaires are CCP Parliament officials. Cronyism much?
Not to mention the nightmare dystopia-in-the-making that is the Social Credit System.
These are just off the top of my head.
I might be a little biased, but I want Hong Kong to win, whatever that entails. I hope the democratic fervor spreads to Taiwan and the mainland, and the CCP is overthrown and it's party members all tried and convicted for everything under the sun.

Do you think the 5 demands are justified?
The Five Demands, to save folks some look-up time.
1) Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
2) A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality
3) Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”
4) Amnesty for arrested protesters
5) Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive


(1) is a Life-or-Death issue for everybody in Hong Kong. The CCP has a 99.9% conviction rate in their trials, so being arrested in the dead of night and extradited to Hong Kong is a death sentence. The bill was finally killed just a week-and-a-half ago, so that's a plus.
(2), (3), and (4) only emerged because the initial protests were allowed to reach this level of violence, and the demand for their fulfillment will only grow as time goes on.
(5) The intricacies would be better explained by someone who lives in Hong Kong, but the basic idea is freer elections. Nobody who enjoys the comforts of the western democracies has any right to say this isn't a worthy demand.

Are they going to happen?
It's honestly hard to say. The people of Hong Kong are tenacious, but the CCP can't afford to show weakness either. The Chinese economy is slowing, and if a democratic movement coincides with a recession, things could go badly for them...

Was Blizzard right in the way it managed its apology?
No opinion. I haven't kept tabs on it.

What about the NBA?
It's not a Chinese Basketball Association. It's just NBA games broadcasting in China.
I know, right?
One thing about China; once they discern what works and what doesn't, they build their own version of it and kick the original out.
The NBA is capitulating for access to that huge, sweet market, but in the next few years, after China organizes a few teams and establishes a league of their own, the NBA will be turfed anyway. Stupid idiots...
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