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YOUR THOUGHTS ON MAGIC/SKILL LEVELING
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1
Prinnyhero
1602
Prinnyhero
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CloseI'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are for skills and magic when it comes time to upgrade in their own games.
Maybe Basic Healing A is great at the start of a game healing 200Hp but what happens when your party reaches 5000Hp (and beyond) and that skill sits at the bottom of the list taking up space and adding to the 'scroll time' to select the newer an better skills?
.. Or another example, maybe a skill gives a Mp Regen buff to one person and later we can upgrade it to a full party Mp Regen buff instead? Keep in mind that upgrading the skill to the next level may increase Mp consumption..
For skills like these I'm asking all you designers and players, do you prefer to have the option of using the single AND party targeting skills or keep it simple and just have the upgraded version? What options do you give players in your games?
Maybe Basic Healing A is great at the start of a game healing 200Hp but what happens when your party reaches 5000Hp (and beyond) and that skill sits at the bottom of the list taking up space and adding to the 'scroll time' to select the newer an better skills?
.. Or another example, maybe a skill gives a Mp Regen buff to one person and later we can upgrade it to a full party Mp Regen buff instead? Keep in mind that upgrading the skill to the next level may increase Mp consumption..
For skills like these I'm asking all you designers and players, do you prefer to have the option of using the single AND party targeting skills or keep it simple and just have the upgraded version? What options do you give players in your games?
bicfarmer
3601
I've played games which replace lower level spells like what you're talking about, and I didnt like it. I prefer options: I definitely need the basic heal if the HP gained to MP cost ratio is higher so i can use it after fights. Same deal for party-wide buffs like mp regen, some characters might not need MP regen (they might have self targeting mp restore or something) and thats just more MP wasted by whoever casts the regen.
Yeah, removing the lesser spells and replacing them with better ones can come with their own set of problems.
Like bicfarmer said, losing the basic healing spell can be really annoying when the replaced skill has less bang for your buck in terms of MP. I don't like losing a cheap useful spell for a spell that's more effective but very costly.
I'm also the weirdo who doesn't mind scrolling thru all the spells for Tellah/FuSoYa/Rydia in FF4 so take what I say with a grain of salt XD
If I have to have replaceable skills, I'd like them to either not increase in MP cost or have the increase in cost still be just as economical.
Otherwords, I like to think of ways to keep early spells useful even late game. You could, for example, have enough of character's MAT (magic power) in the damage formula of early healing spells to have them still somewhat useful as the character levels, you could have the spell heal, at the lowest, a certain percentage of the target's Max HP, like with a damage formula like (in VX Ace)
so the healing won't ever go below base usefulness. There are probably several other solutions that would also work that I'm not thinking about XD
Offensive skills can be harder to balance, but you can do the same MAT scaling to have them still be somewhat useful late-game (if they fall below the power of a regular attack, even after the bonus for hitting a weakness, then they've truly become absolutely pointless).
Also, I like scaling up the cost to where low-level spells are so little cost that you can use them for conserving MP when you don't need to bust out the big-guns, magically speaking. If Fire 1 costs five to ten times less than Fire 3, then at least the cheap cost of Fire 1 will hopefully still be an incentive to keep the player using it.
Like bicfarmer said, losing the basic healing spell can be really annoying when the replaced skill has less bang for your buck in terms of MP. I don't like losing a cheap useful spell for a spell that's more effective but very costly.
I'm also the weirdo who doesn't mind scrolling thru all the spells for Tellah/FuSoYa/Rydia in FF4 so take what I say with a grain of salt XD
If I have to have replaceable skills, I'd like them to either not increase in MP cost or have the increase in cost still be just as economical.
Otherwords, I like to think of ways to keep early spells useful even late game. You could, for example, have enough of character's MAT (magic power) in the damage formula of early healing spells to have them still somewhat useful as the character levels, you could have the spell heal, at the lowest, a certain percentage of the target's Max HP, like with a damage formula like (in VX Ace)
[(regular healing formula), b.mhp / 6].max
Offensive skills can be harder to balance, but you can do the same MAT scaling to have them still be somewhat useful late-game (if they fall below the power of a regular attack, even after the bonus for hitting a weakness, then they've truly become absolutely pointless).
Also, I like scaling up the cost to where low-level spells are so little cost that you can use them for conserving MP when you don't need to bust out the big-guns, magically speaking. If Fire 1 costs five to ten times less than Fire 3, then at least the cheap cost of Fire 1 will hopefully still be an incentive to keep the player using it.
I think it kinda depends on the nature of the game. For example, in a Persona game, I will drop Dia for Diarama every single time. Though, that could be because the game has a set limit on the number of skills a given character/Persona has. If a game has no such limit, then I don't necessarily mind having the option to use the "lesser" ability. I can't think of too many games off-hand where a skill-list was large enough to be considered cumbersome to scroll through, so, I can't really comment on that.
That aside, I experimented with the idea of skills leveling up in two games. Both games had some kind of method to recharge MP mid-battle, without using items. Which may be something of note, onto itself. Anyway, leveled-up skills increase in damage and cost (the ratio of damage to cost tends to remain the same, now that I think on it), but some skills apply states as well. With the skills that apply states, the states also increase capacity.
I can't recall the exact specifics, but, say there was a skill that applied a debuff for three turns. On level-up, either the debuff would be stronger (ie: the stats involved would go down even lower), or it would last longer. Possibly even both?
That aside, I experimented with the idea of skills leveling up in two games. Both games had some kind of method to recharge MP mid-battle, without using items. Which may be something of note, onto itself. Anyway, leveled-up skills increase in damage and cost (the ratio of damage to cost tends to remain the same, now that I think on it), but some skills apply states as well. With the skills that apply states, the states also increase capacity.
I can't recall the exact specifics, but, say there was a skill that applied a debuff for three turns. On level-up, either the debuff would be stronger (ie: the stats involved would go down even lower), or it would last longer. Possibly even both?
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I feel like the MP cost hike is only a concern if MP is a scare resource to begin with. If both the upgraded and basic skills take less than 15% of your max MP and the upgraded skill just does more damage/heal more HP, then I feel like only players that need to crunch numbers to survive in your game are going to care.
Going from a single target skill to an AOE one, however, is a different story entirely. Just so it's clear: altering existing properties like the target scope is not an upgrade by itself because you are taking away functionality that the player previously had. It would be best to leave those as two separate skills and allow the player to chose which one is best for their situation.
As a player, I like variety in my battle options. Two single target healing skills that do the same thing at varying levels of strength isn't very fun for me, while a choice between single target and AOE skills offer a lot more.
Going from a single target skill to an AOE one, however, is a different story entirely. Just so it's clear: altering existing properties like the target scope is not an upgrade by itself because you are taking away functionality that the player previously had. It would be best to leave those as two separate skills and allow the player to chose which one is best for their situation.
As a player, I like variety in my battle options. Two single target healing skills that do the same thing at varying levels of strength isn't very fun for me, while a choice between single target and AOE skills offer a lot more.
Crystalgate
694
Magic/skill leveling is a feature you use when you want a magic/skill leveling system, not to fix a skill list problem. If you have a problem with the skill list, then fix the skill list. For example, you can make the order customize-able or you can make it so that newer skills appear on the top rather than bottom. Or maybe not design skills to be obsoleted. That skill which heals 200 HP may heal far more when the healer's magic stat has increased.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This isn't an in-depth comment or anything, and I could probably spend the next month writing an entire book about skill upgrades in turn-based RPGs (which nobody would read), but based on some things that people have said I just want to give a warning about "upgrading" a skill by removing its limitations. Upgrading all your single target skills to AOE skills as the game goes on is a common example of this. Or making the upgraded versions of magic attacks ignore elemental resistances, or cost no MP, or occur instantly instead of having a charge time.
Limitations on skills are a big part of what make the different skills interesting. Especially if those limitations matter most of the time, like being single-target or having a charge time. When you remove the limitations, the player's decision-making process gets simpler, and the strategic aspect of combat is significantly diminished as a direct result. Generally as a game goes on, you want strategic decisions in combat to get more complicated, not less complicated, because the player's mastery of the system has increased.
Chrono Trigger is actually an example of a game that has this problem in a real way. For the first half of the game, the skills have really interesting targeting mechanics that require the player to wait, time their attacks, and choose the right skill from several options that each work differently, based on the changing positions of the enemies. Then you get Lightning 2 and you never have to worry about that again for the rest of the game. Nearly every ability from then onward that can hit multiple enemies will hit them all no matter where they are.
Boost the skill's power when you give the player an upgraded version, but don't remove the drawbacks or limitations. It's okay to bend the limitations in a way that doesn't simplify the player's decision-making process though. For example, if Lightning 2 targeted a 50 pixel radius around one enemy, it would be less limited than the single-target Lightning spell, but it wouldn't be unlimited - the new limitation would still require just as much thought from the player, if not more. Similarly, if one of your spells costs a huge amount of MP, and the upgraded version is free, that sucks. But if the upgraded version is only free once per dungeon, and then goes back to being expensive for the rest of the dungeon after you use it, then that's interesting. It adds a layer of decision-making instead of subtracting one.
Limitations on skills are a big part of what make the different skills interesting. Especially if those limitations matter most of the time, like being single-target or having a charge time. When you remove the limitations, the player's decision-making process gets simpler, and the strategic aspect of combat is significantly diminished as a direct result. Generally as a game goes on, you want strategic decisions in combat to get more complicated, not less complicated, because the player's mastery of the system has increased.
Chrono Trigger is actually an example of a game that has this problem in a real way. For the first half of the game, the skills have really interesting targeting mechanics that require the player to wait, time their attacks, and choose the right skill from several options that each work differently, based on the changing positions of the enemies. Then you get Lightning 2 and you never have to worry about that again for the rest of the game. Nearly every ability from then onward that can hit multiple enemies will hit them all no matter where they are.
Boost the skill's power when you give the player an upgraded version, but don't remove the drawbacks or limitations. It's okay to bend the limitations in a way that doesn't simplify the player's decision-making process though. For example, if Lightning 2 targeted a 50 pixel radius around one enemy, it would be less limited than the single-target Lightning spell, but it wouldn't be unlimited - the new limitation would still require just as much thought from the player, if not more. Similarly, if one of your spells costs a huge amount of MP, and the upgraded version is free, that sucks. But if the upgraded version is only free once per dungeon, and then goes back to being expensive for the rest of the dungeon after you use it, then that's interesting. It adds a layer of decision-making instead of subtracting one.
Irog
4858
Cure light wounds spell usually has the best HP healed per MP cost ratio and thus is the best choice to heal after battle.
Cure critical wounds, on the other hand, has the best HP healed per turn ratio and is ideal in battles.
I never use any other healing spells because they fall somewhere in between and thus are always sub-optimal.
In long fights, HP regen spells usually free some turns for the healer to cast other spells. I like this option when an attrition battle is the way to victory.
You can solve the long scroll time issue if you limit the number of spells a character can bring in battle. Last Scenario does this really well with its spell cards you must equip. You have to think who will be the caster of the different spells. This create a strong party dynamic.
I like to have multiple targeting options so having both AOE and single target spells is useful.
Cure critical wounds, on the other hand, has the best HP healed per turn ratio and is ideal in battles.
I never use any other healing spells because they fall somewhere in between and thus are always sub-optimal.
In long fights, HP regen spells usually free some turns for the healer to cast other spells. I like this option when an attrition battle is the way to victory.
You can solve the long scroll time issue if you limit the number of spells a character can bring in battle. Last Scenario does this really well with its spell cards you must equip. You have to think who will be the caster of the different spells. This create a strong party dynamic.
I like to have multiple targeting options so having both AOE and single target spells is useful.
Prinnyhero
1602
Wow this is all really great stuff, thanks for all the insight guys. You all bring up great points.
And yes, I agree with you, LockeZ, limitations can definitely be more of a good thing if done right. I tend to get bored later in the game if I become too powerful, it's nice to feel challenged and like you need to work for things.
Back in the day I really liked the Saints Row games but when the fourth one rolled around where you get super powers and are really powerful right at the start I kind of lost interest. I liked in Saints Row 2 how you had to work for everything first.
And yes, I agree with you, LockeZ, limitations can definitely be more of a good thing if done right. I tend to get bored later in the game if I become too powerful, it's nice to feel challenged and like you need to work for things.
Back in the day I really liked the Saints Row games but when the fourth one rolled around where you get super powers and are really powerful right at the start I kind of lost interest. I liked in Saints Row 2 how you had to work for everything first.
Kaempfer
1932
In Evoker, skills are replaced with better versions of themselves as the player levels. So you might have have Heal I at the start, but it changes to Heal II at level 12, then Heal III at level 24. The MP cost and animations are the exact same, but the power is increased. It still fills the same role (weak heal), but it remains a useful skill throughout the game because it periodically increases in power. There is also a Big Heal I and Big Heal II and Group Heal I and Group Heal II, et cetera, as their roles are static (these aren't the names in game).
This only exists because skills in RM2k3 don't scale (well? at all?) with level/stat growth. In an engine where you can align skill strength with stat growth (say RMVX Ace) I would never use something as cumbersome. The reason I use the system I do in Evoker is because I want the player to be able to familiarize themselves with a smaller number of more distinct skills that growth with the player. This is doubly important in Evoker because of the large roster- being able to remember who has what skills without overloading the player is a good thing.
But yeah, it's just a workaround for RM2k3. Where you have more control over skill formulae it's good to examine ways of keeping all skills relevant throughout the game- even if they grow less or more tactically important as things progress.
Options over obsolescence.
This only exists because skills in RM2k3 don't scale (well? at all?) with level/stat growth. In an engine where you can align skill strength with stat growth (say RMVX Ace) I would never use something as cumbersome. The reason I use the system I do in Evoker is because I want the player to be able to familiarize themselves with a smaller number of more distinct skills that growth with the player. This is doubly important in Evoker because of the large roster- being able to remember who has what skills without overloading the player is a good thing.
But yeah, it's just a workaround for RM2k3. Where you have more control over skill formulae it's good to examine ways of keeping all skills relevant throughout the game- even if they grow less or more tactically important as things progress.
Options over obsolescence.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
I absolutely HATE skills that need upgrading directly. Because it means the old one has become worthless.
I'm more a fan of-
YES! Yes, that's it, exactly.
In the games I put out, you either start out with all of the skills you will ever have (allowing me to tailor them and the enemies in the game to all be highly useful in the right situation), or the new skills just add new options for the player (and are probably customizable so you have to pick what skills to have ready and can't do everything at once).
This, paired with attack magic that scales as you level, and healing skills that heal a % of your health, make it so that no skill becomes truly obsolete, and allows for much more flexible combat design.
If skills MUST be upgraded, I like the Etrian Odyssey or Persona approaches.
In EO, you invest more points into your skills as you gain levels, allowing you to better tweak and improve your builds, or prioritize some over others. It also provides a more gradual ascension of power.
And in Persona (and Shin Megami Tensai overall), you're already fusing and changing personas/demons on the regular, so getting new and better skills helps you chase that new power, and make you consider new personas you may not have considered.
Like "Oh, this one has that stronger ice spell I wanted...But is it worth having a fire weakness in this dungeon AND fusing my lightning guy to get him?", kind of thing, that provides strategy and thoughtful dilemmas!
I'm more a fan of-
author=Kaempfer
Options over obsolescence.
YES! Yes, that's it, exactly.
In the games I put out, you either start out with all of the skills you will ever have (allowing me to tailor them and the enemies in the game to all be highly useful in the right situation), or the new skills just add new options for the player (and are probably customizable so you have to pick what skills to have ready and can't do everything at once).
This, paired with attack magic that scales as you level, and healing skills that heal a % of your health, make it so that no skill becomes truly obsolete, and allows for much more flexible combat design.
If skills MUST be upgraded, I like the Etrian Odyssey or Persona approaches.
In EO, you invest more points into your skills as you gain levels, allowing you to better tweak and improve your builds, or prioritize some over others. It also provides a more gradual ascension of power.
And in Persona (and Shin Megami Tensai overall), you're already fusing and changing personas/demons on the regular, so getting new and better skills helps you chase that new power, and make you consider new personas you may not have considered.
Like "Oh, this one has that stronger ice spell I wanted...But is it worth having a fire weakness in this dungeon AND fusing my lightning guy to get him?", kind of thing, that provides strategy and thoughtful dilemmas!
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