SHOULDN'T HAVE USED THAT MEGALIXER, YOU WERE GOING TO LOSE EITHER WAY!

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Its been a long journey: You've cross the Mountains of Despair, found the holy sword Super Stabber, and found Sinistromo's Evil Black Castle of Doomâ„¢. Now you're face to face ready for the biggest boss battle yet with your archnemesis and you're armed with everything it will take to win. During the long grueling fight you've used up most of your supplies including the ultra rare full party heal Spring Water when you give up in disgust and resign to having to watch the prefight cutscene all over again and you die. However instead of seeing YOU LOSE HA HA HA instead you see a cutscene of Sinistromo victorious over the defeated heroes because you were supposed to lose! Commense nerd rage over using up your only two Tasty Waters for nothing or having to deal with that ten minute prefight cutscene again.


How would you deal with an encounter the player has to lose? A lot of games have done different things when the party run into the big bad well before they were supposed to be defeated. Some of them are abysmal failures of game design that infuriate players (see similar examples to above where the player fights tooth claw and nail for gains comparable to if they left to get a sandwich instead of playing the game) and others have been, well, less abysmal failures. The problem stems from either letting the player know that they are going to lose and therefore avoid any investment in the fight but that means the player might as well mash whatever makes the fight end sooner. If the player doesn't know if they are supposed to win, then you get the above problem of using up good items. Here's a list of attempts of handling must-lose scenarios from various games:


Normal Boss Fight That You Can't Win
Its the boss that gives no sign that you can't kill him (besides having more HP than every enemy you've fought combined then tripled). The boss doesn't do anything to actually end the fight besides not dying. This is what nightmares are made of that piss people off about unwinnable fights. The base of many much more preferable variants.

Normal Boss Fight for X Damage/Y Time
Its a normal boss fight! Well, until a few turns pass or you deal enough damage to the boss. Then things turn ugly when Sinitromo uses MENS BEAM, kills the party, and ends the fight. I've seen two variants: One where triggering the YouLose attack is the only way to properly end the fight, and one where dying at all makes the game continue. Both work as long as the illusion that you're supposed to win is maintained until the super attack otherwise the player might as well not bother in the first example and the second might annoy the player with why they were even bothering to fight if they were going to lose (unless the proper reason was given in game).

Normal Boss Fight until Z Player Fatigue
The fight goes on but once the player automatically becomes weak enough the fight automatically ends (possibly from a super attack). This helps keep the illusion that its a real boss fight while trying to avoid the party reaching a state where the player wants to use its rare expendables. The proper fatigue level has to be used, otherwise the player might use their super expendables because they got weak enough for the fight has barely started before the party got killdozer'd.

Its a Cutscene!
This is where there's no fight at all; The boss shows up and murders the party without even a battle transition. This eliminates the problem of the player not knowing if they can even win or not but its just like a bad case of cutscene paralysis: No matter what the player has done or prepared they just automatically lose. They don't get any say in the matter and I believe it can distance the player from the game since they magically lose control of the party at a time when they should have it like when they're fighting an enemy.

Lose, Win, Both Work!
There's a tough fight, but with enough planning and strategy grinding you can seize victory! If the player won the fight but the plot dictates that they lose there could be a cutscene loss but with a prize so the fight wasn't one huge waste of time. An alternative is that the plot progresses as if they won, the story skipping ahead to where the plot would be if they lost and then came back. This is very plot dependent though, not all plots would work with this solution and the player could miss some of the story if they won a fight that could've been lost and shown parts of the story that the player wouldn't see if they won.

You Got Killdozer'd
The fight started half a minute ago and already half your party is dead and the rest are keeping their organs on the inside through the help of some duct tape. This is where the battle is a formality and it doesn't take long that you won't win no matter what you do. It lets the player know immediately that they're going to lose so that they won't use any items but it also means the player won't even try. At least it'll be a short fight.

Can't Lose It if you Can't Use It!
A boss fight where you can't even use expendable items! There is literally nothing to lose for the player since he can't use anything. It could be a huge tip off for the player that they have to lose the fight though and disguising it might be tricky. Maybe making it an effect of the entire dungeon leading up to the boss?

Its Not a Problem if it Doesn't Exist!
You could always make sure that the plot never has a situation like this. Every fight throughout the game has to be won and they're awesome enough to not instantly go down whenver the enemy plays their trump card.


What are/would be your plans for dealing with Must Lose encounters? Are there any games that dealt with this issue that you liked?

I'm trying Boss Fight until Z Fatigue but when the fight ends the player gets awarded for how much damage they did with each point of damage becoming some amount of experience. If the fight starts to drag on enemy reinforcements arrive to speed up the demise of the party. Its not done so I have no idea how well it'll work, if at all.

One idea I had for a fight that the player would lose after so much time would be a trap. The fight starts and the enemies retreat after damage/time and the party pursues. After a while the enemy springs a trap, like a trap floor or a sealed room with knockout gas and they capture the party. Its just a different way of handling an unwinnable fight that doesn't use super attacks and dying before the end of the fight can give a game over without too much "I was going to lose anyway, why can't I die?" (because you wouldn't be taken prisoner if they didn't need the trap)

(I know this was mentioned in the "What annoys you?" topic, this is just trying to get a more indepth response on the subject.)

I am not used to this
Ocean
Resident foodmonster
11991
I don't like having them in the first place. If it happens once, the player might think it may happen again, and not put effort in a battle they think they're supposed to lose, but that is just a tough fight.

If it's 100% necessary, these would be my choices.

>>Its a Cutscene!
Might as well. Don't want them using the megalixir, never give them the chance to try in the first place.

>>Lose, Win, Both Work!
Solely because it's amusing to win and then still end up as if you lost. I did this in FF Legend 2, where I had every character including Dad still alive during the Apollo battle that Dad is supposed to die in. He still died in the cutscene after though. Also, if the plot changes because of this, and the game is very short/replayable (i.e. Chrono Trigger), then it could work too. Quite honestly, I dunno if I would reward the player for beating an "unwinnable" battle, I think the fact that they beat it and they could brag about it should be enough.

>>You Got Killdozer'd
I'm thinking of Bahamut Lagoon here. First off, your characters except for one have 1 HP during the Sauzer fight. Then, you are fighting against the top guy, so you know that you probably aren't supposed to win it yet. He uses Ragnarok to attack all for high damage, and a single ally attack which will kill them. There's no way you'd survive that. I'd probably start the characters off at full HP so that they don't think they have to heal immediately. But this has a chance of biting back if another boss has strong all effect attacks but that the character is supposed to win or use some sort of strategy for.

If you're fighting against the one you know will be the last boss, but in an earlier battle, then you'll get to see how much you've progressed since then, unless the battle is made easier the 2nd time or something.

At least, I'd rather have them just not try because they KNOW the battle is unwinnable, rather than try and waste up their resources for nothing. Or, maybe just return any used items after battle (and make some sort of note about it, or some players may not realize it). But yeah, again, I don't like unwinnable battles.
Give the player advance warning that you might not be able to win this fight, but you won't get a game over if you do. Also, give the player the option of actually winning, and make it mean something at least in the short term - you can still have the party lose in the long run, but having won that one battle won't give the player any satisfaction if the joys of victory are taken from him/her right then and there.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Battles you have to lose don't have to make you actually lose. You can be required to take down a certain amount of the boss's HP, or survive for a number of turns, meaning you "win" but then there can simply be a cutscene where the enemy says "HA HA! That was actually my dopey twin brother, I'm the REAL bad guy!" And reduces you to dust.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Good topic, I'd just like to point out...

You Got Killdozer'd
The fight started half a minute ago and already half your party is dead and the rest are keeping their organs on the inside through the help of some duct tape. This is where the battle is a formality and it doesn't take long that you won't win no matter what you do. It lets the player know immediately that they're going to lose so that they won't use any items but it also means the player won't even try. At least it'll be a short fight.

Never ever ever ever ever ever happens in commercial/jrpgs because the invinciple bad guy always has to stand there and WAIT for like ten turns while you futilely attack him before he unleashes some super move that wipes you out. In fact, a good barometer to tell if a battle is unwinnable is if the enemy is using the wait/observe battle action, you are fucked.

Lose, Win, Both Work!There's a tough fight, but with enough planning and strategy grinding you can seize victory! If the player won the fight but the plot dictates that they lose there could be a cutscene loss but with a prize so the fight wasn't one huge waste of time. An alternative is that the plot progresses as if they won, the story skipping ahead to where the plot would be if they lost and then came back. This is very plot dependent though, not all plots would work with this solution and the player could miss some of the story if they won a fight that could've been lost and shown parts of the story that the player wouldn't see if they won.

This one is my absolute favorite and what I try to do in all my games. I always make it so that if you beat these really super tough bosses (which is generally more about strategy than bitchgrinding) you win extra super awesome loot but if you lose, you don't get gameovered. Examples include in Iron Gaia I where if you lose to the Gaia Guardian, Slade comes along and saves you but if you beat the Gaia Guardian, it drops awesome loot and Slade comes along and says "WOW, YOU'RE A BADASS!" and in Iron Gaia: Virus where you have one and only one fight with Dr. Cross, in the middle of the game, and while there's a 90% chance he will heal up and retreat if significantly damaged, it is possible (small chance) to "kill" him (he doesn't die in the story, though, just is wounded harder and forced to retreat less gracefully) by pounding him with super-high-damage single-target attacks, which is a risky proposition because it means ignoring the HUGE ASS MONSTER you're fighting alongside him. In this one, though, if you lose, you really do die.

Anyway, in either of these scenarios, if you use the megalixer, at least you will be rewarded for it.

Also, my games tend not to have super expendables.
author=harmonic link=topic=2525.msg46395#msg46395 date=1227373423
Battles you have to lose don't have to make you actually lose. You can be required to take down a certain amount of the boss's HP, or survive for a number of turns, meaning you "win" but then there can simply be a cutscene where the enemy says "HA HA! That was actually my dopey twin brother, I'm the REAL bad guy!" And reduces you to dust.

You lost me after the first sentence. Best example I can give is .hack//G.U.: twice in the Demon Palace Tournament, you're given a fight you're supposed to "half-win," and I felt fucking enraged because I could have easily just won the damn thing, but nooooooooo... the cutscene starts up and - surprise, surprise - you're losing instead and are coaxed into cheating by using an invisible, plot-related god weapon to win the match, which progresses the storyline but now all your allies who know what you actually did think you're a power-hungry bastard and not just a self-righteous douchebag. I mean, the guy went on ranting about how he can win the second match without using the plot-device, and yet he's forced to use it anyways because you're not allowed to actually win the battle.

That. Is. Unacceptable!
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
You lost me...?

It means these battles where the good guys are pre-destined to lose dont have to actually be played out by a loss in-game. You can achieve objectives within the battle to "win" it, but the good guys can still lose it outside of battle. I really don't know how to make it simpler, hope that helps.
author=harmonic link=topic=2525.msg46442#msg46442 date=1227402424
You lost me...?

What I meant to say was "I was with you until..." My apologies.

I was saying that having to lose in-battle is bad, but having to lose outside of battle, especially if the battle is winnable, is intolerable...
Most games who force a loss on you, don't do it too well. I though felt Chrono Trigger did it well with Lavos, because he usually killed you in two hits. You know you were fucked.

Radiata Stories did that a lot - made me feel like it was taunting me >_<

When I want to do something like this I always offer a "victory" solution - it's not hard to work 2 different plots from a single battle, ex: You lose - you die, You win - Villian is wounded, but still kills you in the resulting cutscene.

But I feel unwinable battles are a good way to develop a plot - it gives teh main character cause for training, or questing for that legendary sword, or whatever plot you have going on. But making it seem like a winable boss battle is kind of a jerk move =/
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
author=AeroGP link=topic=2525.msg46448#msg46448 date=1227410617
author=harmonic link=topic=2525.msg46442#msg46442 date=1227402424
You lost me...?

What I meant to say was "I was with you until..." My apologies.

I was saying that having to lose in-battle is bad, but having to lose outside of battle, especially if the battle is winnable, is intolerable...

So the heroes should win 100% of everything ever? What might I ask is your idea?
I can think of a few instances in RPGs where these types of bosses are present.

In Tales of Symphonia, there is a fight when you first get to the tower of Salvation. You have to battle a very formidable opponent, and the story is different based on if you win the fight "oh he was holding back" or if you lose the fight "he's been holding back this entire time". Y'know, that type of air. If you win, you get a sum of EXP and a few nice items - but it's not worth throwing away any rare items you may have stockpiled unless you really want to see the alternate dialogue.

Conversely, in Tales of the Abyss, Luke faces off with his rival when you first get to Yulia City. You are supposed to lose this fight right off the bat, but I have managed to beat it myself - and the cutscene is still the same REGARDLESS! It still comes up with Luke having a sword pointed at him instead of the other way around, because it's not time for Luke to beat his rival (which, like one would predict) occurs near the end of the game in a very dramatic fashion.

In Star Ocean 2, the party is sent to the front where a huge force of monsters are trying to get through, led by a single devestating creature. You had to survive for a certain number of minutes before it would be considered a victory. If you died before that point, game over. If you managed to beat him... well, I actually don't know, I never have WON against that monster at that particular battle. xD

Now, does anyone remember facing off against Odin in Final Fantasy IV? It's beatable, yes, but insanely difficult. I thought the first time that I fought against him that I was supposed to lose it... but nope. He hits hard and fast, and you better hope that Kain's in the air when he strikes and that you have a metric crapton of Life or you're screwed. Also, in FFIV, there is a simple battle near the beginning of the game that you can tell you're supposed to lose: against Rydia after the Destruction of Mist Village. The first time I played it this was my thought process: "it's just a little girl.. and HOLY HELL WHAT IN GOD'S NAME DID SHE JUST SUMMON?!!!" And yet again another case of FFIV's great cliches, when there's a fight that you can't win unless you defend. That's right, I'm talking about Cecil's class change. *facepalm* A little out of order, but you get the point.

In FFV, getting the last crystal shard for the last job class - the Mime - was a fight that I wasn't exactly sure what was going on the first time I played through it. There's a Mime (known to us fans as Gogo) just standing there, talking. Now, we're in the bottom of a freaking sunken tower and we're on the clock and I'm just thinking "hack and slash, let's get this baby over with!" Well, the NEXT time I go to try, Gogo is just talking about what do mimes do? I just had to wait until he said "if I don't do anything, you don't do anything!" Needless to say, I felt dumb. Extremely dumb.

And these are the only ones that come to mind at this particular moment, though I know there's a bunch more.
author=suzuricho link=topic=2525.msg46469#msg46469 date=1227435832
In Star Ocean 2, the party is sent to the front where a huge force of monsters are trying to get through, led by a single devestating creature. You had to survive for a certain number of minutes before it would be considered a victory. If you died before that point, game over. If you managed to beat him... well, I actually don't know, I never have WON against that monster at that particular battle. xD

Star Ocean 2 is full of stuff like this. For example, Claude fights Dias at the tournament as part of the plot. You have to do tons of preperation and there is a lot of lead-up to the battle. You are supposed to lose the fight, and you will if you are at a normal level. However the game is extremely exploitable and also pretty non-linear (especially with regards to item creation) so it is very feasible to beat him in the tournament. However the following cutscene does not change and Claude loses the battle anyway. It's pretty funny because beating Dias is sort of like a secret challenge thing, but if you do beat him the game does not have an alternate scenario included.

Anyway

Robbing the player of consumables in a battle where the outcome is predetermined is really bad game design. It makes the player feel cheated and often moves them to load back to a point before the battle. If the player does this, all dramatic impact of the player losing the battle is lost.

Lose, Win, Both Work!There's a tough fight, but with enough planning and strategy grinding you can seize victory! If the player won the fight but the plot dictates that they lose there could be a cutscene loss but with a prize so the fight wasn't one huge waste of time. An alternative is that the plot progresses as if they won, the story skipping ahead to where the plot would be if they lost and then came back. This is very plot dependent though, not all plots would work with this solution and the player could miss some of the story if they won a fight that could've been lost and shown parts of the story that the player wouldn't see if they won.

This is an excellent technique. When designing scenarios like this you should probably err on the side of game and not on the side of story; even if it doesn't make sense that you can win or even if it breaks the narrative, it's good to give credit to people who give your game the attention to win those tough battles. See the above example from Star Ocean 2, where it possible to win the Dias battle just for fun even though the game narrative doesn't acknowledge it.
Another way of handling it that I want to do... (And has been done in a fashion in the game Baroque.)

Death? You owe me five bucks!
Yes, your characters bit the dust...but it's not the end. It's actually introducing a new game mechanic, where you visit the afterlife and find out that things aren't as final as you think! The Gods/Death/Lifestream are willing to give you another chance, provided you do them a service...eventually leading to the defeat of whoever crushed you like the worm you are, of course, but probably something in the short term as well. Perhaps they return you to the same fight, from exactly where you were, but stop the villain from using their super ultra hyper giga cheese firaja holy beam of incredible darkness so that you can have a fair fight. (Mach V)
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
I would like to point out that even though Final Fantasy: Tactics does not use this technique even once, on my first play through I thought that fully 1/4 of the battles in it were like this, because that game is fucking HARD, at least on the first play through.
author=harmonic link=topic=2525.msg46456#msg46456 date=1227421440
So the heroes should win 100% of everything ever? What might I ask is your idea?

*slaps forehead*

All battles should be rewarding when you gain victory over them; a loss in the storyline as a consequence to a battle is just as bad as not getting any items, nor money, nor leveling up. That is what I was saying.

author=Max McGee link=topic=2525.msg46524#msg46524 date=1227467050
I would like to point out that even though Final Fantasy: Tactics does not use this technique even once, on my first play through I thought that fully 1/4 of the battles in it were like this, because that game is fucking HARD, at least on the first play through.

FFT has a ridiculous difficulty curve near the beginning. Once you've gotten past the Marquis Elmdor, though, the rest of the game is obnoxiously easy. Nevertheless, I still <3 FFT to pieces.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Okay, fine, but I'm saying you have yet to present a way that the good guys actually lose something. How would you implement it? (or should they always win at everything forever, like Power Thirst?)
NoblemanNick
I'm bringing this world back for you and for me.
1390
It's hard to make a lose-lose boss battle without upsetting the player, you have to use cues that'll warn the player but not totally make it obvious.
author=Max McGee link=topic=2525.msg46524#msg46524 date=1227467050
I would like to point out that even though Final Fantasy: Tactics does not use this technique even once, on my first play through I thought that fully 1/4 of the battles in it were like this, because that game is fucking HARD, at least on the first play through.

...It was hard?
I find it extremely easy

FFT has a ridiculous difficulty curve near the beginning

Will you believe me that I got a summoner, ninja, and a samurai at chapter one without even cheating? :)
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