[RM2K3] CBS - IS IT WORTH IT?

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@iddalai yes, you are right, in 2k and 2k3 can take lot of time... but, when i started doing engines in 2k, just like the Stratego, it was made in 2k, and old version and limited with 50 pictures... and 2k3 now a days, has the potential to do it them more easy and fast, saving lot of coding with the new features.

My view point, starts from the origins of 2k and their limits, i know how painful was to made a Custom engine even for me, and now in 2k3 has more options to create them in a more easy way, so, with this perspective and evolution of 2k3, its more worth it, at least, for me, and that's why LoH in 2k don't have a fully CBS and CMS, and the new remastered version in 2k3 has a completed CBS, CMS, Custom Text engine, Med engine upgraded, Custom transitions, Parallax picture mapping, multilanguage, Special Spritesheet animations, and some other cool stuff i coul'dn do it back in 2k an 2k3 old versions :)

You could see more of LoH on my discord and see their progress

@Bluefeathr42 yes!! i made a "example game" with a Custom Strategic game, "like" tactics ogre a long time ago, it was a nice experiment for ABS engines also the Soul Blazer engine (old version), they where my firsts atempts of ABS engines, now adays, the Soul Blazer engine, has big upgrades, and its nearly finished, u should check my YT channel to see the making-off videos and progress

Hope my english was better, to share all my knoledge and teachings for RPG maker 2003, but ar least, u can see my videotutorials, and looking forward to do the CBS videotutorial, and going to finish the CMS last video too :)


Anyway, sure its more worth doing the engines with scripts and pluguins and i understand, but with RPGmaker 2003 1.12a was a bit more worth to do them, u cannot disagree whith that, MWahahahha ;)

Oh, and thanks @cherry for all your work!!
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
26027
My personal take.

Yes, it's worth it. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, the results are likely to be horrible. But what a fantastic way to learn how to understand the variables, eventing, and overall logic of RPG Maker. You learn how to make custom systems by making custom systems and the more you know, the more options you'll be able to make in your games. The more you can do, the more interesting you'll be able to make your games. I always take the opportunity to make custom systems in 2k/3.

Advice: Always know exactly what you want to accomplish before you start doing it. Don't make a custom system if you have no idea what you want the end goal to look like.
author=Soeufans
@Bluefeathr42 yes!! i made a "example game" with a Custom Strategic game, "like" tactics ogre a long time ago, it was a nice experiment for ABS engines also the Soul Blazer engine (old version), they where my firsts atempts of ABS engines, now adays, the Soul Blazer engine, has big upgrades, and its nearly finished, u should check my YT channel to see the making-off videos and progress

Hope my english was better, to share all my knoledge and teachings for RPG maker 2003, but ar least, u can see my videotutorials, and looking forward to do the CBS videotutorial, and going to finish the CMS last video too :)


Anyway, sure its more worth doing the engines with scripts and pluguins and i understand, but with RPGmaker 2003 1.12a was a bit more worth to do them, u cannot disagree whith that, MWahahahha ;)

Oh, and thanks @cherry for all your work!!

You've done some excellent work! I think I'll be sticking with Rm2k3 unless it's a matter of switching engines or not making the game. Even though there's a lot of limitations and drawbacks it's still possible to have fun with it. After all, that's what counts.

author=pianotm
Advice: Always know exactly what you want to accomplish before you start doing it. Don't make a custom system if you have no idea what you want the end goal to look like.

This is where I'm at now. I'm gonna start typing up exactly what I want to do, then work out a plan from there. And/Or just lay down and listen to Kyuss until it comes to me. That helped with the setting, anyway.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
2160
@Soeufans The new versions indeed make it easier. I'm just speaking from my point of view. For "me" it's not worth it creating a CBS in rm2k/2k3.

But I cannot speak for "you"! If you think it's worth it for you, then it is!

I really respect what you did for the Spanish RPG Maker community, Soeufans! All the best ;)

author=Bluefeathr42
Stratego and Soul Blazer in rm2k? I'd love to see those.

I'll PM you in a couple of days.
author=iddalai
author=Bluefeathr42
Stratego and Soul Blazer in rm2k? I'd love to see those.

I'll PM you in a couple of days.


Thanks again!

For what it's worth, I came to the conclusion that while I can work with the DBS, provided I do some rather awkward number crunching, what I definitely need is a Custom ENCOUNTER system.

Hopefully I'll have something to show for it soon.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
2160
Not a prob!

Yeah, it's sucks that the default random encounter system is buggy and will sometimes force you into battling twice in a row.

I made a custom-ish system (for an rm2k game of mine) where I set the random encounters to 0 after a battle and then wait some seconds before setting it to the regular encounter rate to alleviate that issue.

Good luck!
JosephSeraph
奇跡なゲイパワー♡
7283
Absolutely worth it, and it can be actually really easy and painless if you use the right tools, are familiar enough with the quirks of whichever version of 2k/3 you're using and keep your scope small. I can make quick CBS prototypes in rm2k3 Maniacs in one day to a week, but they're always simple and unambitious, based on a single core idea.

You're making a new system from scratch. It doesn't have to be bloated with a million different functions to try and compete with Final Fantasy XIV, no. Do you really need that super complex Element system? Are 20 different status ailments really necessary? How complex do you really need your turn order calculation to be? A CBS is an opportunity to pat your game design down to the simplest essentials and build from there. Build, not bloat.

Which makes me want to ask you a question -- is changing the damage formula to use dice like in D&D going to fundamentally change the experience, or is it not just ultimately an aesthetic choice? What is core to your vision? Game design is also about working with limitations, and I find that being lazy and finding the path of least resistance can yield creative results game design wise. too bad my 1 week binge prototypes never become anything

With the advent of Maniacs patch you can easily do a hybrid CBS, too. Save for one CRITICAL flaw on Maniacs (the Get Enemy Parameter to Variable command is bugged and won't check for database ID, just in-battle ID, as confirmed by BingShan) you can easily interrupt every command, calculate turn order on your own, create your own custom skills, a custom menu, substitute the damage popup... Unfortunately that is bothersome due to the aforementioned bug, but it's still possible to do SOOO much via events and make the DBS completely irrecognizable!
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
2160
author=JosephSeraph
rm2k3 Maniacs


Ummm, Maniacs? Wazzat?
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
2160
author=kaine87
author=iddalai
author=JosephSeraph
rm2k3 Maniacs
Ummm, Maniacs? Wazzat?
https://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/24260/

Last release 28/01/2020:
https://ux.getuploader.com/xingqier/index/date/desc/1


Thanks for the links! That looks really interesting.

And thanks to JosephSeraph for mentioning this in the first place!
Hello every body, i am french maker !

I love made Custom systems with rm2K3... ABS, CMS, CBS, etc.

Is it worth to do a CBS in RPG maker 2003? Oh yes Of course !

I have do this :
url=https://youtu.be/XhS5daaM5f0


And this :
url=https://youtu.be/xB0E7uk-Rfs

No patchs, no dynrpg, just rm2K3 with many events.

Creating a CBS is really rewarding. It might also be very cumbersome, due to the fact that you cannot control the variables directly, as if you were writing code in Notepad or TextEdit.

Because of this, AutoHotKey might be very helpful for automating certain functions. AutoHotKey is a free programmable macro environment where you write scripts, activated by a hotkey, that would imitate your own keyboard input. Because of this, you can use it to do anything on a computer. (Although, you have to be careful; some things that a computer processes from a human being using a keyboard, AutoHotKey does too quickly. So, you might have to program in some microsecond-long wait times in your program to give the computer time to process what's coming in through the keyboard.)

For example, I have an AutoHotKey script that takes text I've written and converts it into numbers, then pastes all of the numbers into something like 150 variables that my own RM2k3 text box program will then parse to display custom text.
Personally I think it depends.

The question becomes how can you design your systems in a way that ensure that doing any adjustment won't give you a hard time AND still allow you to finish your game. Do you have a lot of time to spare and reboot loads of work in the event you discover Rm2k3 is just not good enough?

I just find it weird that the aesthetics would be the reason to move to RM2k/3 when you seem to have the programming capabilities? The modern game engines can do it too. Whatever issue you'll face with construct, you'll face with the modern RPG Makers too (HTML5 being nasty towards pixel art games at first until you figure out how to make it finally work). It's also not very hard to make maps look like rm2k3 when JS literally gives you tools like tiled which allows you to make your own add-ons on the editor itself.

Maybe I'm missing something from OP but I feel like it's not worth it especially since it's a Legacy engine that won't receive further updates.
author=Qb1kRM
Hello every body, i am french maker !

I love made Custom systems with rm2K3... ABS, CMS, CBS, etc.

Is it worth to do a CBS in RPG maker 2003? Oh yes Of course !

I have do this :
url=https://youtu.be/XhS5daaM5f0


And this :
url=https://youtu.be/xB0E7uk-Rfs

No patchs, no dynrpg, just rm2K3 with many events.



Duuuude. I've had your youtube channel bookmarked for like a year and a half. You do some awesome work.

author=Archeia_Nessiah
Personally I think it depends.


I just find it weird that the aesthetics would be the reason to move to RM2k/3 when you seem to have the programming capabilities? The modern game engines can do it too. Whatever issue you'll face with construct, you'll face with the modern RPG Makers too (HTML5 being nasty towards pixel art games at first until you figure out how to make it finally work). It's also not very hard to make maps look like rm2k3 when JS literally gives you tools like tiled which allows you to make your own add-ons on the editor itself.

Maybe I'm missing something from OP but I feel like it's not worth it especially since it's a Legacy engine that won't receive further updates.


It's not aesthetics. I mean, I do like 8 bit and 16 bit art and music, which any RM is capable of. And I DON'T have programming capabilities. I just like the engine. It's like...the same appeal as Garage Rock, I guess. Doing it the best I can with what I've got.

I have an irrational hatred of the newer makers. If it comes down to either using XP or VX or MV or whatever, or not making a game at all, then I'm not gonna make a game at all.
yes it absolutely is. i created a basic one with using show choices and it turned out great
Gonna chime in again as some new developments and thoughts arose. As someone who thinks CBSes aren't worth it here's me building a pretty basic battle system with Godot in about a week or so (you can play the game here). It was a whole month for the game overall and some tweaks but overall it was relatively easy to put together as someone who's never made a battle sys from scratch. Granted I have some coding experience under my belt and there's too many factors in gamedev experience in what is actually submit this as proper proof but in my informed opinion (and as someone who's attempted CBSes in the past): I can guarantee that the time spent learning programming + making the actual battle system will offset the amount of value you get out of pain stakenly putting together something like this in RM eventing. This isn't even going into bonuses like the battle system being more modular or taking advantage of 3D, some things are outright impossible.



"Well I just can't code and I will never learn" I think if you can put together a menu with just RM events you are more than capable of coding, to me you are already a programmer. It may be scary and daunting but the options for coding back in the day was like... downloading a compiler and using libraries or something. Now coding languages like GML or GDScript are built into their respective engines. It's normal to bounce off of a new work environment because it's so alien an inaccessible compared to your first time in RPG Maker, but with enough trial and error it is possible to adapt.

"I am saving time" You are adding time. Assuming you are using RM2K3 you are ditching the database and the default battle system in favor of using variables to store and manipulate information. You are very likely having to manage your own database within a database. In order for items and skills to contain descriptions and unique effects they have to be stored in tons of conditional branches. If you are using the Maniacs patcher there are ways to leverage things like Strings into pictures, but a lot of the time saving methods that maniacs offers also requires some extensive programming knowledge to take advantage of anyway. Sure you can get a battle system running within a similar timeframe as my example, but imagine maintaining the whole thing for 2-3 years. It's not just about time, but mental fatigue when it comes time to add a new enemy encounter or skill and you're in common event hell.

"I just prefer things to be simple" The biggest upgrade from going from RPGmaker to any engine like Godot or Gamemaker is just being able to store objects (events) inside of variables. You don't have to make a separate variable for each and every value an object can hold, everything can be temporary and relative to each event/object. For example if you want to target something all you have to do is cycle through the objects that are in a hierarchy. If you want the hp value of an object you just type target.hp. Programming doesn't exist to make things more complicated, it makes it more simpler and to the point. Making a CBS in RPGMaker is complicated because there are more steps to do basic things, imagine if you are trying to make a complicated system with a complicated method. Making a treasure chest in RPGMaker is simple because it's designed to do it in as few steps as possible. Making a CBS just shits all over that philopshy entirely.

"Everyone is different and it's about preference" This is just a "agree to disagree" non-argument to make. It's true, everyone has their own thing and what works for them depends on a bunch of stuff. But there are different kinds of programming languages and game engines, I highly doubt you've tried everything. How do you know that your current method is really what's best for you? Are you actually completing any projects? Are you really reflecting on the efficiency of your method? There are triple A games that were made with really bad tools and methods, they were made eventually (and somehow) but it's not a stretch to review the pipeline. I'm not saying to constantly switch engines when there's the one thing you don't like, but there's just some value in picking the right tool for the job (or most of them). To me GameMaker VS RPGMaker VX Ace is a matter of pure subjective preference. RM2K3 CBS vs GameMaker? Not so much.

I get it, dealing with the DBS is limiting. A CBS is supposed to remove limitations yet creates a lot of new ones. The fun hobbyist side of things is the only reason why I can see anyone doing it and if you're good at it and you actually pump games doing it, cool. But if someone's on the fence about it, I think it's dubious to recommend it, even if it somehow works out for just you. Using the DBS or a later RPGMaker with plugins is the only sensible thing to do if your goal is to make an RPG in a timely sensible manner. If you are making an incredibly simple battle system and it works for you, that's fine but we're not talking about those. Engines are built on assumptions, if you go against those assumptions too much you are going to have a rough time. No amount of perseverance or passion is going to disprove that.
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