TRAP SAVES

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Anyone whose ever played (and beaten) Final Fantasy Tactics on PSX will remember the frustration of the battle at Riovanes Castle when you just couldn't defeat Wiegraf and you were trapped in the save file.

How often do players make multiple save files?

When using Save Points, is it better to save the player from replaying a time consuming area or fight, or should you give them a Save Point and hope they don't get trapped in a situation where they can't defeat a boss/escape?

Mirak
Stand back. Artist at work. I paint with enthusiasm if not with talent.
9300
Well, I personally save multiple files out of paranoia in the case of rpgmaker games. But speaking about games in general, I believe there's some responsibility on the side of the dev to know when to allow the player to save at will and when lock them into situations where they cannot save until certain points.

In the case of games where the devs would like the player to be able to save anywhere and anytime, games that let the player save at their own leisure but that also include a "forced" autosave at certain points can be sufficient I think.

But if I'd personally wanted to go a mile further, I'd make an "extra" option in the title screen or inside the new game/load game option which allowed the player to start the story from specific points that are unlocked as the player progresses through their playthrough. Some games do this too and it's useful not just for rolling back any potential save screw-ups but also as a way to allow the players to revisit any favorite/specific parts of the game.

In this way I think devs have a bit more control on the flow of their game, allowing them to pick what checkpoints they want to create and when so that those unwinnable/screwed save-state situations happen as little as possible.
The one thing that salvages the Wiegraf fight is realizing that the shout command is really overpowered. The player might not figure it out but it's basically the one guarantee nuclear option of winning the fight since it increases your speed and stacks. I knew because I didn't know how to roll generic characters at the start of the game so I spent the whole first arc using only Ramza and Delita.

It's worth questioning why you're trapping the player in the first place. The most common is that the protag is imprisoned so it makes no sense why they can just go back to town whenever they want. But it's also a case of having a fallback, like say there's a prisoner that acts as a fence/shopkeeper or theres rats to grind on to get money to buy stuff from that shopkeeper. So there's at least some way to bypass not leveling your characters up to that point. BoF2 sorta has that cicumstance (and why I gave up on it) but grinding in that game suuuuuuuuuckkkkks and there isn't a whole lot of options. Worst case you give the player a nuclear option (the prisoner fence sells you cheap bombs or whatever) and REALLY hints at you to resort to it before the big daring escape.

Another problem is the consistency of point of no returns. FF7R technically has them all the time especially when you're about to conclude a chapter, and usually has a vending machine/bench you can always stock up on (and a place to grind money for the vending machine)) There's also a chapter select and ontop of that you can access characters that left the party at any time to swap their materia/equips. Otherwise be consistent, are you making an open ended game? Keep it open. Are you making an endless one way corridor? Keep it a corridor. Metro Exodus has a bit of a both where you basically go on a train and go from hub to hub, but as long as the player is informed of what the format is, don't upset it unless it's like the very end of the game or something.

It's the case with every game: the player should know what they're signing up for. If they don't, someone done fucked up.
AtiyaTheSeeker
In all fairness, bird shrapnel isn't as deadly as wood shrapnel
5424
Here, I thought this was a thread about putting tabletop mechanics into JRPGs. I even had a rant to go on about making "skill checks" a narrative thing.

Hmm. Anywho.

I absolutely agree with Darken about that Weigraf fight in Final Fantasy Tactics. Stuff like that happens a couple times with no warning in the game, marring a personal masterpiece. What if you don't have a class on Ramza to play keep-away with? What if you didn't get his Shout ability? Heck, I hadn't known about the Chameleon Robe method to force Weigraf not to obliterate you with Lightning Stab, and the ability's mislabeled too. It's a holy-element attack, not lightning as the PSX English translation said back when. How would the average player figure out how to cheese, and that the best strat is to cheese?

Conveyance is absolutely important for games. Warnings like "this is a point of no return; let's only face this if we're ready". Heck, save points in the SNES-era Final Fantasy games usually convey when a boss is nearby. Igavanias and Mega Man games have doors to tell you that a boss is up ahead. If games can warn about a bigger challenge up ahead, why not warn about parts where you could softlock a save file?

I can see a point of no return for the final crawl of the game. Get your grinding in, max out your consumables, finish your sidequests, and prepare for the final exam of the game's challenges. Heck, ways to escape most dungeons work just fine! Pokemon has Escape Ropes and the Teleport move, Dragon Quest has Outside / Evac, Etrian Odyssey has Araidne's Thread, et cetera.

tl;dr Warn your players first, holy crap. Or, just don't intentionally put scenarios like that in a game. :v
If you're looking for symptom suppressants rather than an outright cure... Well, one easy way to amelioriate the situation--which game designers have been utilizing for years--could be to provide the means of a player to stand a decent chance of overcoming the challenge at hand through the help of conveniently placed items in the vicinity. Items given as a reward after completing a challenge was once the modus operandi, but some time ago designers learned to start giving those items in advance during the challenge, which is smart.

In a retro RPG a logical place to tuck some items could be in the save room preceding the difficult fight. You could semi-hide them behind walls or rocks or bushes in such a way that a struggling player will eventually find them.

Bio Hazard/Resident Evil ever since at least the 4th installment has been placing herbs and ammo directly in boss rooms. Difficult areas in Uncharted or The Last of Us always have ammo or tools lying around to be picked up. Metal Gear does it too. God Hand too (with randomized items).

Granted none of those games have the kind of leveling systems RPGS do. If the possibility exists that the player is much too under-leveled for item pickups to make a difference, then, as others have said, you need to address THAT specific problem by not allowing them to lock themselves in at a point where it's too late, simply put.
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