PROFESSIONALISM, NOW WITH LESS EXIT FATE

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FTR, Last Scenario was released without any hype whatsoever.

It just became popular on its own merits.

If people really are interested in your game, they would be willing to go to your blog and look at your updates there. I was THIS close a few days ago to locking your topic, because you double-posted a bump not even a day after a previously uninformative post. Other people have games too, and your ridiculous amount of bumps just makes them less likely to get exposure.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
The issue is not about "advertising". The community is trying to mimic the absolute worst aspect of professional game development (marketing) while neglecting the reason they are professional games (making a good game).

It is amazing how the community hides behind the aspect of "feedback" and "advertising". Why not cut all of those things out and just focus on your game?

I will tell you what your response is. "Why, then nobody will play my game! What is the point of making games when nobody plays them? SADFACE SADFACE" And the answer is: look at Last Scenario and Cave Story. Both games made by a single person without any hype beforehand. And they are largely two of the most well-known indie games around. Not because they hyped or continually bumped their thread or other "advertising" tactics people around here use.

If you want your game to be successful, you should probably worry more about the big step: actually making the damn thing.
Even if one were to concede that advertising blitz is necessary to get people to play, there's a difference between advertising a finished product and interrupting your development cycle constantly to hype up the promise that one day your game might be completed.
author=WIP link=topic=3159.msg61980#msg61980 date=1234747141
The issue is not about "advertising". The community is trying to mimic the absolute worst aspect of professional game development (marketing) while neglecting the reason they are professional games (making a good game).

It is amazing how the community hides behind the aspect of "feedback" and "advertising". Why not cut all of those things out and just focus on your game?

I will tell you what your response is. "Why, then nobody will play my game! What is the point of making games when nobody plays them? SADFACE SADFACE" And the answer is: look at Last Scenario and Cave Story. Both games made by a single person without any hype beforehand. And they are largely two of the most well-known indie games around. Not because they hyped or continually bumped their thread or other "advertising" tactics people around here use.

If you want your game to be successful, you should probably worry more about the big step: actually making the damn thing.

How many games have you made?
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Do you honestly not believe what WIP is saying
Who said I didn't? However if WIP hasn't finished any games, and we know he doesn't subscribe to the fatal flaw of overadvertising/hyping, than there has to be another significant reason why someone who feels very strongly about finished games hasn't finished any himself.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Maybe he has a job and/or fleeting interests

Maybe gamemaking is a hobby for him, not an obbsession

Maybe I just feel like being contrary (although I agree with WIP 100%)
Maybe he has a job and/or fleeting interests

Maybe gamemaking is a hobby for him, not an obbsession

Okay, so maybe (most certainly) applies to everyone else and their reasons for not finishing games. I'm not saying he's wrong, but like Holbert said, it's a hard pill to swallow when it's coming from someone who hasn't finished any games.
Why is this topic about WIP now?

Get back on topic, jerks.
Despite my earlier comments, I can empathize with a chunk of the people who do relentlessly plug their projects. I mean the reason itself is pretty simple, wanting to say "Look what I can do!" when you create something. Even before I had the internet at home when I was in high school and dicking around with 2k years ago, I'd be bugging my family all the time to show off. While I don't think it's honestly helpful or necessary in any way, a little ego boost is satisfying.
arcan
Having a signature is too mainstream. I'm not part of your system!
1866
I thought the whole reason for this forum was competition. You see how crappy your game is compared to others and you get your ass to work.
WIP makes a good point. I've been guilty of the whole marketing thing completely halting my development in the past, but I think I'm getting better about it. It pretty much boils down to people needing to spend less time talking about making something and more time actually making it. Things would get done much faster that way.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=3159.msg61984#msg61984 date=1234749550
How many games have you made?
I haven't finished any. I have, however, built a custom website from scratch (twice, as a matter of fact) and nourished it to a point of success where you were able to call me an unfit leader and that I should just leave. I think that warrants something, yes?
author=arcan link=topic=3159.msg61994#msg61994 date=1234753093
I thought the whole reason for this forum was competition. You see how crappy your game is compared to others and you get your ass to work.
Competition is in very short supply in a market with no scarcity and no economy to speak of. Just like with fanfiction, such a situation leads to a very large chaff-to-wheat ratio and a lot of difficulty in finding the stuff that's worth your time.

That's why I prefer places like the Game Design and Theory section, where we can discuss how we can improve the stuff we're working on, rather than trying to get people to tell us how great we are. I see it as an agent of change in entrenched dogmas about game design.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
author=Shadowtext link=topic=3159.msg61999#msg61999 date=1234754339
author=arcan link=topic=3159.msg61994#msg61994 date=1234753093
I thought the whole reason for this forum was competition. You see how crappy your game is compared to others and you get your ass to work.
Competition is in very short supply in a market with no scarcity and no economy to speak of. Just like with fanfiction, such a situation leads to a very large chaff-to-wheat ratio and a lot of difficulty in finding the stuff that's worth your time.

That's why I prefer places like the Game Design and Theory section, where we can discuss how we can improve the stuff we're working on, rather than trying to get people to tell us how great we are. I see it as an agent of change in entrenched dogmas about game design.

I'd type my opinion, but 'Text just did it for me.

Also, Feld, FG, WIP: All y'all need to CHILL OUT. Arguement I don't mind - I'm just none to fond of the hostility. Can't you guys call each other stupid in a civil manner? Or better yet, have a discussion instead of a fight? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate it.
WIP is right, FG, and I was close to making a topic about the whole thing.

The reason people make topics about their games and generate hype about them is not to advertise; it's to receive recognition and validation for the work you've done to a game thus far. Aside from that, it's also to determine if people like your ideas. It may seem harmless, but there's two inherent problems with it:

1) As WIP said, time spent organizing, releasing, and discussing a demo is spent not working on the game. It may seem negligible compared to how long it actually takes to develop a game, but when people set a goal to make enough to release a demo, they prepare themselves to release it to the world, have it discussed, request feedback, and suffer from an overall winding down of any work actually done to a game. People will take a break, and maybe they will, or won't, get back to work on it. Eventually. Secondly, and more importantly:

2) That which separates the amateurs from the pros: confidence. Sure, commercial game developers are confident in the sheer amount of resources they have to make a game, including a marketing department. Even if they didn't have a marketing department (like the makers of Last Fate and Cave Story), the need to get a game's name out there shouldn't matter until there's a game ready to go out there. The reason people make topics as soon as there's a playable chunk ready for people to check out is because people aren't confident in their own attempts at game making. It takes so long to make a game, why continue if people think it's going to suck? It's valid to want to know whether or not your time is going to be wasted. However, people's own insecurities about their projects is transmitted through the topic-bumping, advertising, and requests for feedback.

It's a game developer's responsibility to know what a player wants and how to get that in a playable product. Maybe being a good game developer isn't what's important to a lot of people. Such people may just want to make something for show and tell and have the collective community hang it on the proverbial refrigerator door. That's fine. But don't complain when an amateur game website and community want to put the spotlight on things that are pertinent to helping the collective grow as developers as opposed to feeding people's egos.
Perhaps we should discuss an effective way to advertise and 'get the word' out on our projects while working to complete them at the same time?

I mean, there are examples; Barkley Shut Up and Jam had a massive advertising campaign (the game even has it's own Wikipedia page) and it got done; in good time, too. How was that possible? Perhaps we should start looking at that.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=3159.msg62003#msg62003 date=1234755038
I mean, there are examples; Barkley Shut Up and Jam had a massive advertising campaign (the game even has it's own Wikipedia page) and it got done; in good time, too. How was that possible? Perhaps we should start looking at that.
Please no.
Here is the problem.

The RM community is not only a small community compared to the rest of the indie scene, but it is also isolated. Almost every member in this community and the other ones rely on a crutch, which is using their community forums as the only source of getting themselves recognized. They put all of their efforts into that community, hyping it up for those people in hopes of getting the word out. The reason why Exit Fate, Barkley, and many other games (even The Way) are successful is because they don't rely on the community itself, but the indie scene in general and the actual game itself (this one is far more important). Forums are a very bad way of marketing a game, anyway. If your game is good and you've got good friends who are in the scene as well, then that is more than enough to get your game recognized. It's all about the quality of your game and the connections you have.

It's not a hard pill to swallow. Look at every game here, complete or not. How successful are they? Do they rival anything compared to Last Scenario, The Way, or any other indie RPG? You don't need to make a game to know what you're talking about, the proof is right in front of your face.
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