RPG INTROS

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NoblemanNick
I'm bringing this world back for you and for me.
1390
RPG Intros

I know for a fact this is always my first difficult in my projects. Deciding the best way to do an intro. I always like doing it in media res rather than a prolouge but that is not always the case. I am can never find the best way to introduce a game there are pros and cons for each as I say. I think in media res brings the attention of the player in immediately while a prologue I always thought was a little slow for my taste. What's your thoughts on this?
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Whatever you can do to deliver gameplay in five minutes or less...do it.

That is what I have learned.
author=Max McGee link=topic=3684.msg73735#msg73735 date=1241643911
Whatever you can do to deliver gameplay in five minutes or less...do it.

That is what I have learned.

Out of curiosity, what would you classify 'gameplay'? The start of the actual game, or just anything controllable?

As in, at the start of my current game I put a fairly-relevant controllable scene that probably went a little past 5 minutes, before getting to the actual heroes. Just wondering!


And, yeah. I think in media res is probably the way to go. An endless RPGMaker textbox history lesson on a parallax background is a little bit VERY HORRIBLE. Nevertheless, it's never actually stopped me playing a game. I know that some people feel very strongly about this, though, and will likely just F12 when they get '1000 years ago, a terrible catastrophe befell the land of--'.
author=Max McGee link=topic=3684.msg73735#msg73735 date=1241643911
Whatever you can do to deliver gameplay in five minutes or less...do it.

That is what I have learned.
It's worth noting that letting the player walk a few steps after an intro only to get slapped with another huge cutscene is probably not a good idea. Countless commercial games have done this and it annoys me to no end.
Sorry, doubleposted. Meant to Modify but did Quote!
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Gameplay is when you get to fucking play the game.

Intros should be thirty seconds, max. FF7 has an incredible intro.
I agree, you need a short cutscene or some action right away, you can do the backstory later, prefferably in managable chunks instead of a gigantic wall
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=3684.msg73885#msg73885 date=1241727985
I personally think my introduction to Sore Losers is good because it poses questions and also gets you into the action quickly...

Also, Shakespeare voiceovers 8)


I actually agree. Your intro was short, sweet and simple, and put me into the action right away.

I agree, you need a short cutscene or some action right away, you can do the backstory later, prefferably in managable chunks instead of a gigantic wall

Agreeance as well.


I think intros should be no longer than 5 minutes or so, before letting the players control the central character. I wanted to die when starting Persona 4. I think it was after an hour or so until I was finally allowed to save.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
I really like the voiceover in the intro of Sore Losers and really was wondering what it was from.

Eike:
Some form of gameplay- even if you do just walk a few steps and trigger another cutscene- is okay.
Actual for real gameplay (non-automatic battles, dungeon crawling, etc., however the game starts with the real playable characters) is even better though.
Generally speaking, an effective intro length is only as long as you can make it: 1) interesting, 2) necessary.

If the intro fails at doing these things, it isn't a good intro. Lys (A Blurred Line, Frozen World, etc.) was really good at the short, snappy intros that got you into the game world. Long intros can work - Love and War's is WAY too long, but still proves to be relatively enjoyable because of solid dialogue and character interaction. Needless to say, conciseness is usually the prudent option.

Harbinger's intro was really pushing it at an ETA of 15 minutes, but most people seemed to like it...especially considering it was the only thing in the game worth playing at its demo release.

Just - if you question your ability at doing good cutscenes, don't make an intro longer than 5 minutes, okay?

-puts aside stack o' work for a moment-

I have to say that I disagree with what the majority has said here so far. I feel that under the right context, and with the proper writing and cinematic techniques, an intro that lasts five, six, or even more minutes, is worthwhile. ((says the nutbag who's own game has a retardly long intro...that you can now skip)).

It's all about presentation, which is something that independent (that's us) and commercial (that's the guys at We-Make-Games, Inc) game developers have still failed to due on an average. If you can present something that is interesting enough, player will sit and watch it, even if it turns into the equivalent of a small movie.

Source: KOS-MOS's chest

However, length and detail are not necessary if the content is really good, and really well presented. Final Fantasy VIII's musical intro is, by far, one of the best Playstation RPG intros I've ever seen. It was powerful, dramatic, and emotionally stirring, even if you ended up hating the game later. Even now, after all these years, if you ahve played FF8, you haven't forgotten the game's introduction.

Another example of a game with an incredible introduction is Eternal Sonata. Granted, the scenes shown in the introduction make absolutely no sense until you reach the end of the game (read: ending sequence), but following that foreshadow-heavy montage is an opening monologue describing the starting village. So superb is the use of the English language in this introduction, and so beautiful are the visuals, that it pulls you into it's language-heavy world before you even start controlling the character.

Both games have roughly five minute introductions (although I believe that Eternal Sonata is a bit longer). Both games rely heavily on the presentation and the content of the introduction to keep the players attention. And neither is, in my opinion, too long. They do exactly what the game developers set out to do, draw you into the world with an introduction that is appropriate to the type of RPG you'll be playing.

Now back to Xenosaga, and KOS-MOS's chest...

Because you know that is why you played the game...

Games like Xenosaga have extremely long introductions, extremely long cutscenes, and ridiculously long endings. But these games don't try to hide that. In fact, the games specifically sell themselves as movie-like experiences, and therefore set the expectation, before you get the game out of the box, for very long dramatic sequences that tell the story. The Metal Gear Solid series is very similar, using cutscene sequences which can upwards of 30 minutes long (unless you are playing MGS4, then add yourself a zero at the end that number).

So if an adventure game like Metal Gear Solid can have very long intros, and it's not even an RPG, then why not an RPG? Is not the very purpose of the RPG genre to be more story-intensive than any other genre? Then would not logic dictate that an RPG should, by it's very nature, have a more detailed introductory cinema than any other genre. I mean, can you imagine a First Person Shooter having that level of cinemati---

Oh.

TL;DR Version: Guys, RPGs can have long introductions if the person writing the dialogue and designing the introduction uses it to set the tone for the rest of the game. While this may be very hard to do with RPGMaker games, it still can be done. All it takes is being able to use the medium in question to capture the audience's attention. And in RPGMaker, that medium is the written word. So go practice writing.
Both Metal Gear Solid and Xenosaga regularly go way past the point of acceptable cutscene length, honestly.

Also, I don't remember FF8's opening, but I do remember getting bored of the game about halfway through, only finishing it because I felt that I should out of principle.
Again, acceptable by whose standards? Yours? Mine? Prince Charles of England's? There is no standard, Karsu-san. If it's your opinion that they do go past that point of acceptable, then those games are not for you.

Some people absolutely love those two games for that very same reason.

So, yeah, like my previous post. What do type of game do you want? That'll determine the acceptable length of the intro and cutscenes.
Players don't know what they want. It's up to developers to make those decisions for them.

I am willing to bet that just short of everybody would prefer shorter cutscenes in Xenosaga.
Erynden
Gamers don't die, they respawn.
1702
author=Karsuman link=topic=3684.msg74002#msg74002 date=1241790017
I am willing to bet that just short of everybody would prefer shorter cutscenes in Xenosaga.

Especially when you are in need of a save point.

I don't mind too long of intros or cutscenes until I die and realize there was no way to save it so I don't have to watch it twice. Only exception of this rule to me is FFX. Still love.

Going back to stare at KOS-MOS chest....
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
author=MayorAnime link=topic=3684.msg73997#msg73997 date=1241787019
Is not the very purpose of the RPG genre to be more story-intensive than any other genre?
No.

FF8's intro goes against your point. It is 3 minutes long. It's bizarrely random but edited quite well and then shows something relevant with Squall getting owned. Then you get about a minute worth of dialogue and you name your character. Then a little more dialogue and you can move your character.

That is the sort of intro people were saying works. You probably just didn't understand what they were talking about.
you have to be pretty damn confident in your ability to interest a player if you are going to make intros or cutscenes that are longer than 5 minutes
author=WIP link=topic=3684.msg74004#msg74004 date=1241790478
No.

FF8's intro goes against your point. It is 3 minutes long. It's bizarrely random but edited quite well and then shows something relevant with Squall getting owned. Then you get about a minute worth of dialogue and you name your character. Then a little more dialogue and you can move your character.

That is the sort of intro people were saying works. You probably just didn't understand what they were talking about.

Granted, I probably did misunderstand what the other posters were talking about, but I still stand firm on my point. An introduction that is three minutes long, five minutes long, etc, is fine so long as it is presented in a coherent and well written fashion.

author=Karsuman link=topic=3684.msg74002#msg74002 date=1241790017
Players don't know what they want. It's up to developers to make those decisions for them.

At this point, Karsu, I'm going to stop replying to you on this thread. My reason is that philosophically, I disagree with this statement completely. Any more debate between us will be purely argumentative, which can be fun as hell when bored, but will ultimately deviate this thread away from the point NoblemanNick started, something we're all trying like the dickens to avoid here.

author=Jakester link=topic=3684.msg74003#msg74003 date=1241790176
Especially when you are in need of a save point.

I don't mind too long of intros or cutscenes until I die and realize there was no way to save it so I don't have to watch it twice. Only exception of this rule to me is FFX. Still love.

Agreed. If you're going to have a long intro or long cutscenes, offer save points, or save prompts. Medal Gear Solid is generally good about that. Xenosaga was not, and I consider that to be one of the game's glowing faults. FFX wasn't good about it either.

author=Yoshio link=topic=3684.msg74005#msg74005 date=1241790511
you have to be pretty damn confident in your ability to interest a player if you are going to make intros or cutscenes that are longer than 5 minutes

Well, some of us are that confident. And some professional developers are not just confident in that ability, but they routinely back it up. Nothing wrong with believing you are the shiz-nitz and then proving it, Yoshio.


Anyway, to everyone else, there is an alternative that I haven't seen discussed yet. A lot of games with cutscenes, RPG's especially, give you the option to skip the cutscene. What do you all think about that? Would you, as a player (not as an indie developer), be more forgiving to a game with long cutscenes if it had a function to skip said cutscenes?
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