RPG INTROS

This is why games are never completed.

I think Karsuman nailed it but one thing I'd like to address.

author=MayorAnime link=topic=3684.msg74217#msg74217 date=1241932366
I've had players of Lost Legacy tell me that they hate its long intro, like yourself. I've also had players of Lost Legacy tell me that they loved the long intro, some even saying that it drew them into the game. Therefore, it's the opinion of the individual player, and to try and set a standard on the designer is ridiculous. The industry doesn't have standards for intro length and cutscene length, why should an Indie community? Indie communities are supposed to be less restrictive than their mainstream counterparts, not more.

So to answer your question, 'Why a long intro?', the only answer I can give is 'Because that's what the designer wants to do'. Sure, he alienates one group of players, but at the same time he draws in another.

This doesn't entirely depend on the player's opinion, it also depends on the player's patience. Short intros bring in impatient players and patient players, it's a win-win situation, there's no risk of your game being neglected in the first minute. A shitty short intro is always better than a shitty long intro.

No. You should just have good gameplay.

It is not a stupid balance board or see-saw. A good game needs good gameplay. If it's an RPG, the player also expects some sort of hook and a handful of carrots; it does not even have to be a GOOD STORY (hello Jung) as long as it has enough spunk to give reason to the RPG's battles and dungeons (which should be the focus of the game designer).

Oh wait we were talking about intros

MODIFY: (OH BTW you should listen to me because I have 1) several completed games 2) several popular completed games and demos and 3) I know what I'm doing)

MODIFY2:

sasosonwa (6:31:07 AM): you liked harbinger's intro, right? so people can still have good story-based intros.
sasosonwa (6:31:24 AM): I will admit, though, I saw fractal's post and I scoffed =P
sasosonwa (6:31:42 AM): why except one over the other anyway? It's silly.
sasosonwa (6:31:46 AM): accept*...
CrazeTex (6:32:00 AM): Harb was based on gameplay.
sasosonwa (6:32:09 AM): well, yes.
CrazeTex (6:32:12 AM): You developed it as an in-depth dungeon crawler.
sasosonwa (6:32:13 AM): but it is a topic about intros
sasosonwa (6:32:16 AM): XD
CrazeTex (6:32:21 AM): The intro had a forest maze.
CrazeTex (6:32:27 AM): The intro had a battle.
CrazeTex (6:32:40 AM): It was part of the game, not a panorama.
CrazeTex (6:32:50 AM): *panorama with scrolling text
sasosonwa (6:33:05 AM): haha
CrazeTex (6:33:43 AM): Oblivion has the best intro the entire world (yes, better than FFX-2's, which I love and know most of the lyrics to)
CrazeTex (6:33:49 AM): .
CrazeTex (6:33:57 AM): There is not even a splash screen.
sasosonwa (6:34:02 AM): imo
sasosonwa (6:34:09 AM): oblivion's is pretty annoying
CrazeTex (6:34:36 AM): I will not deny that, but it DOES set the tone for an EPIC ADVENTURE without drowning you in facts.
CrazeTex (6:34:46 AM): also I meant the movie, not the tutorial.
sasosonwa (6:35:38 AM): oh
CrazeTex (6:35:52 AM): When you load Oblivion, you see the necessary logos and then OBLIVION unzooms onto the main menu (this is all skippable).
CrazeTex (6:36:00 AM): Then the new game movie is, like, 60 seconds
CrazeTex (6:36:22 AM): and has Patrick Stewart
CrazeTex (6:36:53 AM): and is this sweeping display of a GINORMOUS FANTASY CITY that is not a stupid ugly castle
CrazeTex (6:36:56 AM): and there is great music
CrazeTex (6:37:07 AM): and then you create your character and get insulted.
CrazeTex (6:37:10 AM): Best intro ever.
CrazeTex (6:37:36 AM): I guess that I am trying to say is that tone > substance.
CrazeTex (6:37:42 AM): *what I am
sasosonwa (6:37:55 AM): haha
sasosonwa (6:38:14 AM): harbinger was probably both of those.
CrazeTex (6:38:36 AM): It was.
CrazeTex (6:38:55 AM): But it's not a see-saw.
CrazeTex (6:39:05 AM): A game NEEDS tone.
CrazeTex (6:39:16 AM): Even if the substance is lacking or makes little sense.
CrazeTex (6:39:49 AM): A game that has both is even better. =D
CrazeTex (6:40:12 AM): (and by substance I mean not-gameplay stuff)
CrazeTex (6:40:20 AM): So basically
sasosonwa (6:40:47 AM): lol
CrazeTex (6:40:54 AM): gameplay^3 + tone^2 + (substance * developer.INT) = success
sasosonwa (6:41:02 AM): haha
sasosonwa (6:41:15 AM): I like how you turned it into code

Maybe it's cause I have a "I don't care" attitude, but intros, cutscenes, or whatever don't bother me if they are long or short, skippable or not, just as long as the rest of the game works.

But if they're long, for the love of god, have a save point after it or save all option. It will begin to annoy me if I have to go through it a 3rd-4th time. I blame Xenosaga.

author=Karsuman link=topic=3684.msg74221#msg74221 date=1241936649
Making a long intro is a MASSIVE risk; this community is very cynical. We do not wait for things to 'pick up'. If it's boring, we do not lose a damn thing by exiting out and playing a better game. You need to keep this in mind with your players. They owe you nothing. You owe them everything. You need to show them a good time or they will dump you immediately, not unlike a spoiled prom queen. The reason why I say the players know nothing is because they are looking for you to guide them and give them a reason to enjoy your game.

author=Darken link=topic=3684.msg74397#msg74397 date=1242018345
This doesn't entirely depend on the player's opinion, it also depends on the player's patience. Short intros bring in impatient players and patient players, it's a win-win situation, there's no risk of your game being neglected in the first minute. A shitty short intro is always better than a shitty long intro.

Ya see, this is where I have to say I feel that you are both wrong, and voice the basis behind my position, and why I feel the way that I feel.

I keep hearing people here talk about the interests of the community, the community, the community. Specifically, the RM* community (or as I am likely to infer, the RMN community). That scope is far too microscopic, it views only a couple of hundred (or thousand) people, most of who are developers. But in all honestly, the scope being used is actually closer to less than one hundred, since the number of people in this community especially who actively post, develop, etc, is far fewer than the number of people who play RPGMaker games.

Now, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I do listen to my players. That is why the only game I've released on RMN has over 1500 downloads (total, not current, I have deleted and re-uploaded content several times), with a total of over 5000 downloads from the game's original site and megaupload site combined with RMN. Listening to the players is also why my inbox is constantly getting emails of praise on the game's cinematic value, it's deep character development, and (yes) it's introduction and cut scenes.

So you see, while I can respect the opinion about having short intros, stating that opinion as some sort of fact only shows that a scope and view that is extremely limited. I'll make it clear, in case my words so far have not, I'm not making my games for just this community, and neither should any developer here. I believe that the developers here, like myself, should be helping each other make games for the tens to hundreds of thousands of people out there who aren't the least bit interested in developing.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, both Karsu and Darken make extremely good points. I have to agree that if a developers is making a game meant solely for circulation throughout the community, then yes, keep your intro short and sweet, have stellar gameplay, and keep the player entertained. That way, you are sure to get good reviews, compliments, and constructive criticism, which will allow you to become a better developer.

I wish my game had 5000 downloads.

author=Max McGee link=topic=3684.msg74500#msg74500 date=1242069043
Disclaimer:
If anyone mentions in any way the irony of this post, they will be shot. (Maybe not immediately, but one day. I promise.)

Statement Following Disclaimer:
Seriously, STFU.

Signature:
-Max McGee

Postscript:
P.S. I think I will review Mayor Anime's game next. If I can actually force myself to play it.

Cute. Well, if you've offering to trade reviews, I've been itching to review Backstage for a while.

It is rather largemungous.

author=kentona link=topic=3684.msg74519#msg74519 date=1242070286
It is rather largemungous.

There! That'll hold me over until I can get something more RMNish created.

Ok guys we win, lets hit the showers.