ELEMENTS AND FINAL BOSSES

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Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
I agree with Soli. You played P4, right chaos?
Man the only thing I hate about Persona is ALMIGHTY ATTACKS, seriously it's so unfair specially when bosses spam you with it :(
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
I like Almighty attacks because you cannot be weak to them!
Not when they dish out 330-510 damage >:V
It's just annoying have a nice arsenal of personas and suddenly an almighty attack that stuff can't block is very annoying, specially when random encounters have them and all 5 of them megido you like there's no tomorrow.
Just wanted to say that elemental attack are not limited to rpg! In USG, I have a secret boss that force the player to use all elemental attack also.



The secret boss switches its attack between normal attack and elemental orb attack. Elemental orbs are enemies that nullify any element except one. The player needs to exploit their weaknesses in order to survive that pattern thus forced the player to switch weapon every attack pattern.

So basically, my idea is to force player to use all elements and not just one. I guess this is the base idea for any elemental-based boss game.
I was thinking the other day about a kind of see-saw shield boss, with maybe 5 different shield modes like this:

1- Immune to fire, x4 damage vs ice
2. Half damage vs fire, x2 vs ice
3. Normal
4. x2 vs fire, half damage vs ice
5. x4 damage vs fire, immune to ice

Each time you hit him with fire he becomes more resistant to fire, and less resistant to ice. And vice versa of course. So you can just alternate between ice and fire and stop him from ever getting immune to anything, OR you can hit him with ice until he's immune to it, and THEN switch to your strongest fire spell, which will do quadruple damage.

I dunno, I think the maths still needs to be worked out, and there'd need to be some in-game way of showing how it works (otherwise people will just cast ice, fire, ice, fire etc) , but I think it could be pretty cool, possibly good for a final boss even.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
I like that idea, Dave. Pretty cool.
Digital Devil Saga2 also have secret bosses, Shiva and Vishnu, that require elemental attack strategy. However, they both heavily rely on the player memorizing the turn sequence.

For Vishnu, he change his elemental without performing any skills and you have to guess his current element from his attack.

Shiva is pretty much the same but his weakness/strong point changed following the turn sequence. It's been a long time so I might got this wrong but those who are interested in interesting elements strategy based bosses should really look into Shin Megami Tensei series :)
post=108364
I was thinking the other day about a kind of see-saw shield boss, with maybe 5 different shield modes like this:

1- Immune to fire, x4 damage vs ice
2. Half damage vs fire, x2 vs ice
3. Normal
4. x2 vs fire, half damage vs ice
5. x4 damage vs fire, immune to ice

Each time you hit him with fire he becomes more resistant to fire, and less resistant to ice. And vice versa of course. So you can just alternate between ice and fire and stop him from ever getting immune to anything, OR you can hit him with ice until he's immune to it, and THEN switch to your strongest fire spell, which will do quadruple damage.

I dunno, I think the maths still needs to be worked out, and there'd need to be some in-game way of showing how it works (otherwise people will just cast ice, fire, ice, fire etc) , but I think it could be pretty cool, possibly good for a final boss even.

FYI, it depends on whether you have any particularly special skill cost or availability systems, but the player is probably best off hitting for 4x as often as possible. Highest average damage that way (2.25/hit) and you can slack off on the half-damage hit if you need to.
NOFITY ME IF YOU THINK THIS IS TOO EASY

Though my specialty is not in RPG production, I have recently thought up a boss loosely based on Dave the sheep's boss system.

Spectrum Dragon
This boss would be a midway point boss in an RPG. The boss has seven forms, six based on an element. The seventh form is the starting form, what the player sees once the battle initiates. The rest of the conflict shall play out as to the player's wish.
If the player uses a fire elemental attack on the dragon, for example, the sprite shall change into a fire-form of the dragon and the dragon shall use only fire-type attacks. It can only be defeated with an ice-type attack, otherwise the dragon would either absorb the fire-type attack or change into a form of the dragon which corresponds with the type of attack used most recently. Once the latter happens, the form previously faced will heal to maximum health, as each form as it's own HP, and it will change into the new form.
However, once a form is defeated, the opposite form of the dragon, and Spectrum Dragon, will have an increased statistic based on the dragon form defeated. For example, if the fire form is defeated, the ice form of the dragon will have increased agility and Spectrum Dragon will absorb and use fire-type attacks and have increased agility. If the opposite form is already defeated, then Spectrum Dragon increases in that statistic by twofold.
Once all other forms are defeated, the player will finnaly face off with Spectrum Dragon. However, by this time Spectrum Dragon will be rather formidible and difficult.

Is this a good boss?
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
Too confusing. How is the player going to know that a stat has increased, or care?
EternalQuotes
Though my specialty is not in RPG production...
I still am not... knowledgable in the field of RPG production. There is your answer.

But to answer you question in a supporting manner, I simply added that on as I went. I always an thinking of ways to make the boss harder, due to other dissapointing battles in other RPGs. Perhaps I overdid it on this boss?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
6003
FF6 had an ability called Debilitator that made an enemy weak to a random element. Such a skill seems like it could work very well with this problem, if you consider it a real problem. But really, I don't.

As you said, if the final boss is weak against one element, then anyone who can't use that element becomes much less useful. So, the obvious answer is to make all your really hard bosses be element-neutral. If you have a black mage type character whose main advantage is access to many elements, you just need to give that character another skill that is primarily useful for boss fights. A buff spell is the obvious choice. In my game I gave the black mage a buff that grants MP Regen.

The exception is if your main character is unremovable from the party, and uses an element that no one else does. In this case you can make anything in the game, including the final boss, be weak or strong against this element with no problem.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
That definitely isn't the answer - There has to be a reason to use Agidyne over Zandyne, otherwise your black mage is essentially mashing attack with an MP cost and a special animation.

Anyway, isn't it better to distribute elements and other roles amongst the party, rather than have one "black mage" that uses every element? Give the fire magic to the beatstick, lightning magic to the nuker, etc. (But that's not really relavant to the thread, so I'll leave it at that :/)
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
chaos: I think that the thread is evolving toward roles, so explicate further!

My input is that it depends on the game. The Black Mage as a multi-element wonder worked for FF1. For Etrian Odyssey 2, the same role is similar but split up - and not by element (entirely). Alchemists are your elemental nukers, but for the majority of the game they're likely to specialize in one of three elements. Gunners are back-row fighters as well, but their elemental attacks are physical. Ronin are also elemental (although unlike Alchemists and Gunners, they can also be built effectively with little to no elemental focus), and can hit one or all enemies like the Alchemist, but are in the front row with defenses akin to a Gunner's. That's three Black Mage classes, but each has drawbacks (Alchemist can't really attack without TP; Gunner can't bypass enemy VIT; Ronin falls easily) and advantages (Alchemist can do the most damage, especially with Analyze; Gunner also has a strong normal attack that crits often; Ronin is the single most powerful front-row combatant in terms of sheer damage output).

Yeah. Also, Persona 4... but chaos will talk more about that.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
Thread revival with an idea:

Elemental tanking. This character attracts Fire attacks, etc. Also, this skill reduces the chance that the ally is targeted with Fire attacks, etc.

Discuss.
Not quite the same, but I'm working with an idea sort of along those lines.

The 'elemental' structure of the world I'm working with has four 'meta-elements', five if you count true non-elemental as a separate meta. The sets are: weapon, technical, natural, and spiritual. (Tc::Fire <> Nt::Fire <> Sp::Fire <> Tc::Fire) I've already set one character in my current main project as a designated spirit-damage tank. Not quite 'elemental' per se, as any opposed spiritual ability would tend to target him regardless of its own element , but perhaps similar to what you're looking for.

Haven't looked any further than that one idea; I need to experiment with this more.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
post=117109
Thread revival with an idea:

Elemental tanking. This character attracts Fire attacks, etc. Also, this skill reduces the chance that the ally is targeted with Fire attacks, etc.

Discuss.


If this game had more than three elements, I would probably not play it. That's just ridiculous in an FF element game. If done well, and a focus on the gameplay, I think that would be nifty.
post=106013
Note that this applies to RPGs only, as I'm pretty sure they it's the only genre that has elemental attacks...


You've never played MegaMan ever have you?
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
post=117283
post=117109
Thread revival with an idea:

Elemental tanking. This character attracts Fire attacks, etc. Also, this skill reduces the chance that the ally is targeted with Fire attacks, etc.

Discuss.
If this game had more than three elements, I would probably not play it. That's just ridiculous in an FF element game. If done well, and a focus on the gameplay, I think that would be nifty.


I'd say four or five total for a game with a primary focus on ele-tanks - not every element would need a tanking stat for it.

* Chaos notes the idea for later use.
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