CRITICISM, ANGST, AND YOU

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Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
THE SAGA MARA TALON FLAP

I have been known to word things in completely horrible manners in the past, so I'm going to state my intent with this topic up front: this is about proper ways to take criticism, as well as what is and isn't criticism. oh wait the topic's developing just like your precious anise isn't

http://www.hbgames.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=69776
or
http://www.hbgames.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=77 ; look for "Saga Mara Talon."

This is a topic gone wrong. What happened? I showed a response to some friends and they, well, posted. I purposefully stayed out of it from there on out. I made what I felt was a justified (and somewhat unjustified post in terms of attacking the forum's activity) response. Then a mod and an admin trolled until the topic was locked, saying that I couldn't take criticism after I repeatedly replied to a honest post about the game. While I know full well that I don't take all criticism (hey WIP darling), I thought this was a little extreme. I've never completely renovated a game due to honest feedback, after all!*

So, what could have been done to improve this? If you've released a project, how did you react to criticism? What IS constructive criticism, what is faux criticism, and what is just idiotic? Have you ever actually written a review, or at least made a list of points/thoughts, and did it help the creator or did they scream at you?


*This is exactly what Karsuman and I spent almost a month doing for Visions & Voices.
DE
*click to edit*
1313
I have to side with the other guys. Sorry, Craze.

And the only thing your RMN friends did was act like a bunch of trolls. I'm not at all surprised at the staff's reaction.

You also have to realize (although you probably already know that) that your games are so... specific that only one player in ten (if that) will "get" them. The rest will scratch their heads and dismiss them as garbage. So don't be suprised that your games are not everyone's cup of tea and that they receive mostly negative opinions outside RMN. Or are outright ignored.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
post=122338
I have to side with the other guys. Sorry, Craze.

And the only thing your RMN friends did was act like a bunch of trolls. I'm not at all surprised at the staff's reaction.

You also have to realize (although you probably already know that) that your games are so... specific that only one player in ten (if that) will "get" them. The rest will scratch their heads and dismiss them as garbage. So don't be suprised that your games are not everyone's cup of tea and that they receive mostly negative opinions outside RMN. Or are outright ignored.

I tried to make it seem like I was a little sadngfksag about the others, especially since I purposefully stay out of the topic for a few days afterward. Like my disclaimer, though, I am epic phail at wording/stating/etc. Only Karsuman really gets me! Sometimes.
I'm going to have to jump the fence and agree that yeah, I agree with the other side on this one.

Like DE said, you gotta understand that your games fit what is relatively a niche market. They're definitely not mainstream nor are the 'the norm', and it probably would have helped your case immensely if you put it out there that your game was closer to the roguelikes of old (or whatnot) than in the models of newer, more conventional games. Unlike say, kentona's Hellion, at first glance your game doesn't exactly sell itself as what you're selling it AS, so it's up to YOU to put it on the table and explain what your game is about.

And even then, as DE said, not everyone is going to 'get' it or 'like' it, and they don't have to. Tindy's post was the best thing going, with honest criticism from both cylinders, criticism that could have been misunderstood from Tindy's part (because she/he didn't 'get' the game, which, like I said before, is up to you to present), and criticism that's pretty valid in general, regardless. The criticism from the other guys was honest, pretty much.

It was the response to said criticism, that well, wasn't.

Tindy: "Character development and presentation are important for an RPG, and I feel this game doesn't have that!"

Karsuman: "You forgot that the only RPGs worth playing are FF and Kingdom Hearts. Because, you know, the awkward, bad dialogue squenix produces is worth striving for."

I mean, are you kidding me? Is that a valid response to legit criticism (no.)? Craze, your response wasn't much better! If you're going to defend your work, try to understand where the other person is coming from instead of having a knee jerk reaction.
I'm never going to make an account on HBGames.They don't get one of my favorite RM games ever. . It's one huge inside joke for the plot, because it does all the things normal RPGs do but Craze is blunt about it. This game is better than normal stuff that people put blood sweat and tears into, they just won't admit it. Why make a huge, boring, filler loaded game that couldn't entertain anyone. And most of that was trolling.Tindy didn't get part of the game, but he probably won't get most of diablocide either. Tindy did provide constructive critisism.
post=122342
This game is better than normal stuff that people put blood sweat and tears into, they just won't admit it. Why make a huge, boring, filler loaded game that couldn't entertain anyone.

This is entirely subjective, opinion, and speculation. You can't just DECLARE that your game is better than anyone elses, nor assume that 'pff why make boring type B game when you can make a great type A game and BE LIKE ME'
I love how after the review was posted a fucking team of guys came in a bashed the reviewer! :]

Seriously though, I'm with the "opposition" on this one. I didn't read the guys review cause I'm strapped for time (lunch break) so maybe I missed something, but really I came off as though you thought SMT was perfect or something, then went on to make fun of their forum after they didn't think so. Also Karsu's comment was just about the epitome of unnecessary.

I don't approve.
post=122343
post=122342
This game is better than normal stuff that people put blood sweat and tears into, they just won't admit it. Why make a huge, boring, filler loaded game that couldn't entertain anyone.
This is entirely subjective, opinion, and speculation. You can't just DECLARE that your game is better than anyone elses, nor assume that 'pff' why make boring type B game when you can make a great type A game and BE LIKE ME
True, but the point of this game WAS to take out boring filler and be about playing the game.And it succeeded, I don't think ANYONE gripped the concept of it. Though I suppose most of Craze's games will remain cult classics. I meant that the concept was great, just not thoroughly explained.
"GUYS YOU JUST DON'T GET ME"

The "you don't get it" point is not really valid. It's the game designers duty to make sure people get what the game is about.
And even then, they have no obligation to actually like it.
True, but the point of this game WAS to take out boring filler and be about playing the game.


Also this makes no sense. Nowadays the entire point of RPG's is to tell a story. They're about that "boring filler" that apparently Square is the king of, and that makes every game suckass dooda. If you're going to take it all out, don't make an RPG.
I didn't word this right...It wasn't supposed to be about story, but rather gameplay.
imo you should rename this topic "Criticism, Angst, and Me"

I haven't played Saga Mara Talon yet. I plan to (a gameplay-and-balance-focused RPG that doesn't make me smash a button through pages and pages of dialogue sounds right up my alley), but based on the information posted in the linked thread it doesn't really sound like a fully baked, Craze-quality game concept, even though I'm personally betting that it is. With sooooo much crap floating around in indie gaming circles I think it's a bit asinine to slack on presentation and then wonder why it reflects on the way people perceive your game, especially when you're trying to offer a different experience than what most of your prospective players have come to expect, which normally calls for a much more fleshed-out and explanatory presentation.

Also yeah some of the commentary that followed seemed like a resignation of "well, this topic's going down the pooper anyway, let's give them a good reason to flush it", but none of that was your doing :p

editus maximus:

I guess what I'm saying isn't that different from what others have, that your game deserves a description that gives the reader an idea of what it's like to play your game, not one that reads as if my mom wrote it while watching over my shoulder as I played it. Something that points out where it lies on the very broad RPG spectrum would be a start :x

Lennon
Nowadays the entire point of RPG's is to tell a story.
I was going to write a big spill about how I disagree with this but it's such a dogmatic statement why even bother applying logic to it :p if everyone thought of a genre's "prototype" (like Square's iconic RPG series) as inviolable canon, games in general would be a lot more boring and less innovative.
I am not sure if this topic was really necessary since it is liable to create even more drama than RMN GLADIATORS posts at rpgmakervx.net, but whatever.

I actually don't buy the "don't get me" stuff, but that's mostly because the games (craze's) REALLY aren't that complex. Even if the player doesn't understand the author's intention they will form an opinion anyway, such as the reviewer in this case.

That said, it was obvious that the game was not about characters. The topic didn't mention deep characters or story, so why would it even be expected, much less counted as a con?

Also this makes no sense. Nowadays the entire point of RPG's is to tell a story.

The goal of an RPG is to be a good game.

Please play Etrian Odyssey and/or its sequel. Some of the Shin Megami Tensei games (Nocturne, for example) also get by on extremely minimalist plots. Both EO and Nocturne are excellent examples of good RPGs.

I like a good story and characterization as much as anyone, but I have found it harder and harder to play games that are incompetent in more than one area. Valkyrie Profile DS is a great example of this. A relatively competent piece of writing marred horribly by awful gameplay. Mass Effect almost made me quit for similar reasons, with its tedious repetitive battle design, clunky interface and pointless sidequests - I beat it, but barely, due to all the gameplay problems (I have heard the sequel is much better).

And some games could just use less story overall. Star Ocean 4's story and characters are dreadful. Shin Megami Tensei Devil Survivor also has a horrible story and characters. Both of them get in the way of the more competent gameplay. I'd rather their be minimal to no writing in a game if they are just going to ruin the rest of the experience with incompetent and drawn-out writing.

So yeah, no.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
post=122353
Also yeah some of the commentary that followed seemed like a resignation of "well, this topic's going down the pooper anyway, let's give them a good reason to flush it", but none of that was your doing :p

This is my biggest point of contention. I made, like, three posts (including the OP) in that topic and respected tindy's effort. I also think that mods/admins should act more professionally. =D
Yeah my criticisms of your presentation aside, it didn't really (at all) seem like you got a fair shake. My point wasn't that you don't know how to sell yourself so much as that you really have to spoonfeed unique ideas to the masses.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
Why did you even post on HBGames.org? I thought you hated it or something.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
Download count. Just because I don't like a site doesn't mean I don't like numbers. =D

Also, people who say my games aren't about characters at all or whatever can suck it, because Diablocide was about fourteen fleshed-out characters interacting with each other and fighting epic bosses. Well, thirtheen fleshed-out characters and Stefan.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
post=122360
Download count. Just because I don't like a site doesn't mean I don't like numbers. =D


Sell-ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut ;(
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
More like "RMN may have a few fans of my work (even though SMT might be the worst since Versus Xerza), but it consists of roughly twelve members and the project is nowhere near good enough to go outside of the RM* community."

What I'm really saying is that I'm misanthropic toward the entire community, but I spent years of my life in #rm2k so this is 204 Nostalgia Place. And it doesn't suck.
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