CRITICISM, ANGST, AND YOU

Posts

post=122334
I showed a response to some friends and they, well, posted.
Why, why would you do this - it's your game not theirs. You should have been the one responding to the review and taking the criticism instead of 'staying out of the way' for two days.
I actually think the reason the admins got involved was because they were baited, and then when you joined the topic again, you didn't exactly win them over, instead you said the reviewer had a few good points and pretty much that the forum sucked.
post=122352
I didn't word this right...It wasn't supposed to be about story, but rather gameplay.
And on this point, surely you can understand why many people might not like this, i mean it's pretty much the opposite of what people usually do with RPG's. It isn't 'not getting it,' it's 'not liking it.'
post=122360
Download count. Just because I don't like a site doesn't mean I don't like numbers. =D

Also, people who say my games aren't about characters at all or whatever can suck it, because Diablocide was about fourteen fleshed-out characters interacting with each other and fighting epic bosses. Well, thirtheen fleshed-out characters and Stefan.
I meant that Demon Tower seemed more gameplay oriented, but the c
post=122360
Download count. Just because I don't like a site doesn't mean I don't like numbers. =D

Also, people who say my games aren't about characters at all or whatever can suck it, because Diablocide was about fourteen fleshed-out characters interacting with each other and fighting epic bosses. Well, thirtheen fleshed-out characters and Stefan.
I meant that the game seemed more gameplay oriented. Characters are great too.Stephan seemed like comic relief though...
People really should get off this thing about stories being special things in RPGs.

I mean has anyone played any action adventure, RTS and FPS games lately? Hokey Indiana Jones clone it may be, but Uncharted 2 has a better narrative (certainly better dialogue) than at least a vast majority of RPGs.

RPGs have to have more to them than stories nowadays, guys.
I think one thing that could have been done to improve the initial reaction would have been a better original post. I don't really know what game topics look like (I'll go look at two now that I write this... dumdidumdidum... alright that didn't give me much) but I think that a bit more text in some places to describe what is to be expected. Know your audience. I mean I can clearly see what the game is supposed to be in the snippets of text there. "Saga Mara Talon is a game about some people killing a bad thing called Talon" is enough for me to know exactly what the game is. But perhaps the audience at the site has certain other automatic expectations and a bit more explanation could have been good.

(Such as the intent. I see later in the topic that someone says "6 hours of fast-paced gameplay that's just another way of saying unfinished game". When people expect epics you need to be VERY clear that this is not that)

The original topic layout is also fairly shite. The images take up so much space that the informative text between them is easily missed as simple image descriptions. Putting all the text in one box (since there isn't much of it) and then throw all the screenshots last could have improved readability by a lot.


Of course once the buddy response to the criticism was posted there was very little you could to to save it except for jumping in as quickly as possible and defuse the situation by firstly dismissing the nasty comments by the friends and politely explaining to the reviewer that "yeah, the game is not supposed to have much of a story. It's essentially just an arena battle game. For the other criticism blahblahblah" and continue to either adress your intent on things the reviewer might have misunderstood or acknowledging stuff like "hmm yeah, the game could probably benefit from a better tutorial" or just acknowledging that "true, this game isn't easily accessible nor for everyone"


(I know, for example, that I have no interest whatsoever in this game because the only thing I dislike more than the regular RPG stories is the regular RPG gameplay)


The Too Long Didn't Read Version of what went wrong:
The original topic might have been a bit unclear. Especially considering the audience. Not jumping in and defusing the situation before it got out of hand was a clear mistake.
post=122374
People really should get off this thing about stories being special things in RPGs.

I mean has anyone played any action adventure, RTS and FPS games lately? Hokey Indiana Jones clone it may be, but Uncharted 2 has a better narrative (certainly better dialogue) than at least a vast majority of RPGs.

RPGs have to have more to them than stories nowadays, guys.

True, but you can't blame someone for expecting a plot out of a genre that's mainly narrative oriented, which is another reason why your reply in that topic was completely unwarranted. He's not even complaining that he didn't like the plot, he was just expecting it to be there, which isn't unreasonable given the fact that Craze failed to present to potential players "Hey, this is this type of game, this is what you should expect before you download and invest your time in this so you don't walk in blind". If you mess up on presentation, yeah, someone is "not going to get it". I bring up again kentona, who does a simple but excellent job at presenting his ideas to audiences.

It's not a bad thing for an RPG not to have a plot and be all about the gameplay, but if that's going to be the case, it should be presented as such.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
Oh look, Craze finished a game, released it to the world, wasn't hailed as a genius, and a week later posted a topic complaining about it. Just like what has happened every other time Craze has ever released a game.

Shocking.

Craze, let me share something with you. Not everyone is going to like your games. Ever. No one is ever going to make a game that everyone likes. That is literally the only thing worth mentioning about that little debacle.

I thought Tindy's feedback was excellent, to be honest. just because he/she didn't like parts of the game doesn't invalidate his opinion and saying he doesn't "get it" does nothing for your case. Also the mods on that board may not have acted like saints but Team RMN didn't help.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
Hmm. That's a really, really good point. I was pretty lax with the topic because it is a time-waster RPG, essentially, so I probably should have been more clear. I can't expect everybody to be as intuitive as Shinan. At the same time, though, "clean" topics kind of bother me personally because it's just like HERE IS RPGMAKER GAME #25245. PASS IT BY, PLEASE. As such, I like to be dirty and throw big images around - they show the game off better than a two-page long description of the Crystal War, right?

Thankfully, I knew that wouldn't work for V&V and that it won't work for Arian Wild.

Soli: I DID NOT COMPLETELY INVALIDATE TINDY where is everybody seeing this, I said he was the only respectable person in the topic pretty much
To cover the original post question:

Anything a player/reviewer says is valid criticism; ANYTHING.

Honestly you should be HONORED that he wanted to know more about the characters so badly, that means you caught his interest with your characters and that's one of the most difficult things to do.

Your players are your customers, and your reviewers are the most important ones since they're giving you something back. To discard anything they say for any reason is folly, and being rude about it is an affront to other developers and reviewers (not that you did, but others...)

Even if it's a total jerk review by someone who hates you, that means it stood out in their minds as the weakest areas, that's still information you can use.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
post=122382
Soli: I DID NOT COMPLETELY INVALIDATE TINDY where is everybody seeing this, I said he was the only respectable person in the topic pretty much

Not in the thread, but you seem to think he didn't "Get it," which is pretty invalidating, not to mention I'm not quite sure at all what that is supposed to mean. Does it mean he is just not the audience for your games? I do not agree, I think anyone who plays RPGs is your audience and some are going to have different opinions of what an RPG should have than others. Some will want more story/character development, some will want none and just gameplay, but I'm guessing even those who want gameplay still want just enough story/character development to know why the party needs to kill the evil guy.

chaos response was pretty inappropriate considering the effort tindy put into that review, and considering your first response afterwards was a swipe at the forum it probably seemed like you were being pretty dismissive. But it seems you did get some useful feedback from that thread, which is great of course, and seems to be a lot more than most people get on that site. It's a shame the topic got locked, but I'm sure you can get feedback elsewhere as well.

Edit: Actually, a lot of this post is really talking more to Craze's defenders than Craze himself!
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
Solitayre wins this topic without a question.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
post=122384
Even if it's a total jerk review by someone who hates you, that means it stood out in their minds as the weakest areas, that's still information you can use.

Of course. While Brickroad isn't a total jerk, Karsuman and I still followed his review of V&V to improve the game to address almost all (if not all) of his points. That doesn't mean I even agreed with all of it. What I didn't agree with in tindy's review was the story/character bit, which is not what the game was about at all. I was also upset that s/he complained about not understanding the game when they blatantly ignored an important mechanic (switching the party around instantly). Even if tindy didn't like the game or the way it played... whatever. You don't need to hear this!

Bleeeeeeeeeeeeh. The worst part is that I actually tried a few Diablocide-esque character talks between areas because I knew this was coming, and tindy didn't like them.
if the game wasnt about story/character then it's no wonder tindy thought it was lacking.
people expect an RPG to have a semidecent stoyline/characterisation, that's just how it is, and you can't really argue if you haven't stated otherwise.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
post=122393
if the game wasnt about story/character then it's no wonder tindy thought it was lacking.
people expect an RPG to have a semidecent stoyline/characterisation, that's just how it is, and you can't really argue if you haven't stated otherwise.

"Saga Mara Talon is a game about some people killing a bad thing called Talon."

Also, read Karsuman's posts in this topic.

wasn't hailed as a genius

Screw you, Soli*. I'm not Legion.

*Solitayre I love you please don't think I am actually telling you to screw off COME BACK TO ME
post=122395
post=122393
if the game wasnt about story/character then it's no wonder tindy thought it was lacking.
people expect an RPG to have a semidecent stoyline/characterisation, that's just how it is, and you can't really argue if you haven't stated otherwise.
"Saga Mara Talon is a game about some people killing a bad thing called Talon."

Also, read Karsuman's posts in this topic.

what, that doesn't say anything.
and i've read his posts, you mean the ones saying RPG's shouldnt be about just stories?
i'm not disputing that, i'm just saying that's what people expect to get.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
This is why I am not a marketer :<
I could go into detail about why exactly I completely disagree with Karsuman, but I won't cause he's a mod and he could probably ban my ass. Theres no reason to argue anyways, since it's really just an opinion.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
post=122395
wasn't hailed as a genius

Screw you, Soli*. I'm not Legion.

*Solitayre I love you please don't think I am actually telling you to screw off COME BACK TO ME

Haha, to be honest when I saw the title of this thread I was sure it was about Legion, actually.

post=122399
I could go into detail about why exactly I completely disagree with Karsuman, but I won't cause he's a mod and he could probably ban my ass. Theres no reason to argue anyways, since it's really just an opinion.

I've yet to see anyone get banned for expressing an opinion.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
I'm all for the topic shifting, Lennon. Go for it. Karsuman can't ban people anyway, even though I tell him to daily. Only WIP wields the ban hammer. Also, Karsuman can be a jerk when he wants to be, but he is not a meaniehead!

Solitayre: MY BACHELOR'S DEGREE IS BETTER THAN YOU FOREVER also I live in a basement
Pfft, I don't even know how to word it anyways. I don't think it was a disagreement more of some clarity, that I didn't say RPG's should be just about stories, but that it's a big part of the genre. My point was that if you aren't going to put any big kind of story in at all, then why wouldn't you make it an action or adventure game?

Thats all really.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
post=122401
Solitayre: MY BACHELOR'S DEGREE IS BETTER THAN YOU FOREVER also I live in a basement


I live in a basement ;_;