CRITICISM, ANGST, AND YOU

Posts

kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20836
I own a house therefore my opinion holds the most weight.
post=122402
Pfft, I don't even know how to word it anyways. I don't think it was a disagreement more of some clarity, that I didn't say RPG's should be just about stories, but that it's a big part of the genre. My point was that if you aren't going to put any big kind of story in at all, then why wouldn't you make it an action or adventure game?

Thats all really.


Some people actually enjoy just the gameplay themselves in RPGs! See: Final Fantasy V
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
Lennon: Karsuman and I bitch about this sort of thing like every week, so here's his latest take on it, simplified in capslock:

ALL RPGS THAT HAVE A PLAYABLE ROLE HAVE PLOTS

PLOTS ARE NOT STORIES

PLOTS USUALLY ARE BEGINNING/MIDDLE/END BUT CAN BE DIFFERENT LIKE HOW V&V IS BEGINNING/END

PLOTS ARE NOT STORIES; RPGS HAVE FLOW BUT NOT NECESSARILY AN EPIC TALE

Soli: There is a difference between the two of you.
post=122404
I own a house therefore my opinion holds the most weight.


Also you have a kid, that would proabably add to this imaginary "opinion scale" as well.
post=122399
I could go into detail about why exactly I completely disagree with Karsuman, but I won't cause he's a mod and he could probably ban my ass. Theres no reason to argue anyways, since it's really just an opinion.

Humor me.

If I just banned people because I thought they were being stupid, everyone in this topic would have been banned long ago. Yes, including myself.

As a side note: while I will agree that I could have been less aggressive and probably should have not posted what I did in the hbgames thread, I was not attempting to invalidate tindy's entire review, and my opinion on the matter remains.

Edit: Annnnd there were like fifty posts in this thread since I started this one.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
No one says RPGs all have to have epic tales. Well, some people will, but I won't. But having some sort of narrative flow isn't just there for the sake of having a plot, the narrative actually can help guide your players where they need to go next. Dumping them in a world and saying "heroes, defeat the villain!" without telling them where the villain lives, who the heroes are, why they are working together, and whether they should go north or south of their starting point, can be quite off-putting.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13865
Thankfully, Saga Mara Talon doesn't let you go South! Well, it does, but for like five tiles. And it tells you to go North under the "Objectives" thinger.
I can understand the defensiveness that comes with the assertion that something you worked at for a good while was some trivial rushed duplicate. If my game got called that, I'd be flipping pissed.

Some of those guys were jerks. Also, some of us probably went to far.

I find almost all criticism constructive. Any negative feedback helps the designer tailor a game to improve the experience. It's as convoluted as common law, because you're trying to make the game enjoyable for the "average gamer" unless you're gearing it toward a niche market. Idiotic criticism would probably include that which was levied out of spite for the maker him(/her)self.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
Lennon, RPGs are about mechanics, not stories.

Honestly this topic is just Craze whining again. SOMEONE DIDNT LIKE MY GAME, TIME TO MAKE A TOPIC ABOUT IT. Really, I chime in on games all the time here and I own the place. Is that terrible? Because I own RMN does that mean I am not allowed to express my opinion on a game?

Edit: The fact that I don't too often is because I don't really care unless someone asks.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
post=122416
Lennon, RPGs are about mechanics, not stories.



Responding to this, this is true in the technical sense, but there is something people often forget. They forget that an honestly well-written story with well-written characters can actually be entertaining. Good writing can really bring up the appeal of any game, not just RPGs. People look down their noses at the idea of stories like they are inherently some horrible, monstrous thing that drags the genre into some unfathomable abyss of darkness and devours it whole, but good writing can in fact make a game much better! In some cases, the writing is actually the main appeal of the game! catmitts' games are a perfect example of this.

Whether most RPGs actually DO have good writing is of course another matter, but I feel like its never even given a chance in most cases.
WIP
I'm not comfortable with any idea that can't be expressed in the form of men's jewelry
11363
The point is that you can have an awesome story in any kind of game, Sol. Typically the reason people expect them from RPGs is because you are about to plop 40 hours into it.

By the way, I hate the typical japanese RPG story of coming from nothing to turn into something. It is horribly played out. WATCH AS THE VILLAGE BOY WHO IS ANTISOCIAL SAVES THE WORLD AFTER 30 HOURS OF KILLING GOBLINS
It's important to note that even if just mechanics was your goal, people wanted the character development when the characters were so interesting.

What I'd take from the character bit feedback is that if your throwing out names and strong personalities you should polish them up; if you don't want to, use a format like FF1 or other games that are purely mechanics.

post=122417
In some cases, the writing is actually the main appeal of the game! catmitts' games are a perfect example of this.


Adventure games (which Ghost Voyage and his other games fall under) and visual novels are pretty much founded on writing, however. Concept, writing and setting are always key elements in them. They are supposed to get you wrapped up in the world. This has been true since the day of the text adventure.

The earliest jRPGs are actually very mechanics intensive See: Dragon Quest. Ninja Gaiden probably had a more competent plot. The amalgamation of full-scale narratives with 'speaking' characters and RPG mechanics did not really appear until the Genesis/SNES with games like Phantasy Star (relatively incompetently) and FF4 (fairly competent).
Interesting topic, and once again we have hbgames as a negative example. X,-D (But I expected Wip to take out the links because of the ''Burger King promo in a McDonald's Restaurant'' thing. ^_^).

So, what could have been done to improve this? If you've released a project, how did you react to criticism? What IS constructive criticism, what is faux criticism, and what is just idiotic? Have you ever actually written a review, or at least made a list of points/thoughts, and did it help the creator or did they scream at you?

I myself do not react angry to negative criticism. I guess the only bad case is simply no criticism. I try to change what I can change or what makes sense for me. But of course I once also got faux criticism. It was not here, but in another forum. People said ''This sucks because it is a parody and it hurts my feeling cuz I am a fan of the original.'' or ''It is bad because it is made by you.'' -,- Seriously.
I already made some review right here. Not knowing if they helped. Some were about inactive author's games, others about games that already had tons of reviews so everything was already said... but my next one will definitely be about a game that has no review yet and as far as I know the author will really appreciate it. Maybe the rating will be disappointing, but as long as it is fair in comparison to other games and you give reasons not just saying ''Poor game design.'' it should be no problem.

About the story discussion: For me it is: atmosphere > gameplay > story. Yes, you can put a good story even into puzzle games or whatever. But I don't find that necessary since games are games and not books, story isn't the main focus for me.
post=122416
Lennon, RPGs are about mechanics, not stories.


I didn't say RPG's should be just about stories, but that it's a big part of the genre.
Criticism is good, and I can't get enough of it. I always want more.

But there is a point at which criticism is taken too far. The way one or two people treated Legion in the IG:V review was quite asshole-ish (not the review himself...) ... I mean, it wasn't necessary to... Er, actually... Oh, let's name some people just because I just love calling people out and being confrontational.
Skie Fortress: I'm sorry. This isn't meant to be funny, but I couldn't help but laugh at key points. 8D

Nightblade: It's funny because it's true.

It's even funnier in contrast to the ridiculous review previously posted.

Blindmind: Hahahaha. I agree with Skie. =[

I mean, you don't need to laugh at the guy. You can state that you agree with the review, but basically the way these people acted (everyone knows Nightblade is kind of an asshole anyways so whatever!) was unwarranted. Going "lol this game and review make me laugh and i am going to post about it" is not constructive. The review itself had a lot of stuff that was constructive and could be learned from (the GOOD stuff, although it was a bit ironic how there was a complaint about the way Legion mapped a doorway in a certain manner, when I've seen the same method in one of RMN's top games, Ascendence.)
At least Legion reacted in an alright manner. Obviously it was a little emotionally charged, but it wasn't an explosive response. Anyone remember that guy a while back making that post-apocalyptic game who blew up every time someone made a slight criticism? One of those people who start cussing everywhere and go "i quit." or some crap like that.

A while ago, this member, Asalieri was playing my game Mindflare. He came to me with a complaint about how I didn't put teleport events across the edges of all maps, and eventually decided that my game sucked. He then rounded up a bunch of people to tell me my game sucked. He then rounded up a bunch of people to make a PODCAST in which he said that my game sucked. Like I hadn't already gotten the picture, he decided to broadcast it across a few sites (like GW) that my game sucked. (Fortunately some friends there backed me up.) Ironically, later, Asalieri told me he had reversed his judgment on my game.
I was pretty pissed by this, especially since it was right after I had put a lot of effort into revamping areas of my game. Of course, the way I reacted over IRC wasn't the greatest, since I tended to act spammy/trollish in IRC, but still, the harshness of the criticism was kind of discouraging.

Essentially if you tl;dr, I am saying. Harsh, useless mocking criticism is good. Criticism needs to stay constructive.

In fact, I think this is one of RMN's biggest flaws and the reason I hate screenshot topics / game ads / basically the whole forum. RMN's userbase kind of sucks! There are a good amount of people I like here but there are a lot of dumb people here too. People don't comment enough on gamepages and a lot of feedback just tends to be "looks cool" "ooo pretty" "nice mapping" "nice graphics" or some bullshit like that. I don't need to hear it. "Fix this ____" or "hey maybe it would look better this way." or "It's fine as it looks, I love it and continue on with the game." Any of that is good. "Looks cool" means hardly anything to me when people have already said just that. I complain about this shit all the time and

Seriously, what the hell is the point of this topic: http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/5676/
I would seriously like it if more of the forum was geared towards development and design and real discussion on the games rather than dumb stuff. I mean, why does Moronic have like 6000 or something more posts than anywhere else?
I would seriously like it if more of the forum was geared towards development and design and real discussion on the games rather than dumb stuff.


Don't we all. ):
post=122456
Seriously, what the hell is the point of this topic: http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/5676/

In my defense, it is the Moronic Topics forum. Everything has it's place! On topic: If there has to be one way or the other, I don't mind the gameplay discussion shifting away from the forums and on to the site. I like the forums for community related stuff (along also with the game design discussions that we're having now), and the actual site itself for the meat of the game talk and where the real business happens. Why can't everything just coexist, you know? It's like, everyone wants something, but everyone wants to take something away from someone else for it to happen.

I like general nonsense discussion! I also like posting on gamepages and I actively encourage everyone to keep their blogs updated. I pay my taxes! I'm not a bad person!
This horse shit again?

Really?

I mean, you don't need to laugh at the guy. You can state that you agree with the review, but basically the way these people acted (everyone knows Nightblade is kind of an asshole anyways so whatever!) was unwarranted. Going "lol this game and review make me laugh and i am going to post about it" is not constructive. The review itself had a lot of stuff that was constructive and could be learned from (the GOOD stuff, although it was a bit ironic how there was a complaint about the way Legion mapped a doorway in a certain manner, when I've seen the same method in one of RMN's top games, Ascendence.)
At least Legion reacted in an alright manner. Obviously it was a little emotionally charged, but it wasn't an explosive response. Anyone remember that guy a while back making that post-apocalyptic game who blew up every time someone made a slight criticism? One of those people who start cussing everywhere and go "i quit." or some crap like that.

This thread isn't about Legion, his inflated sense of self worth, or the game that was recently reviewed.

If this was supplied as an example you shouldn't take a whole paragraph to express this.

I've said this before, and I guess I need to say this again; you don't get to pick and choose what people say about your game. Opinions are wide ranging and can be expressed in a variety of ways. Be grateful people are even taking the time to post about it. Learn from it. Don't know what to take from someone's post? Ask. Nicely. If they don't respond? Reflect on it, take another look; it's not every players job to give you feedback.

Seriously, what the hell is the point of this topic: http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/5676/
I would seriously like it if more of the forum was geared towards development and design and real discussion on the games rather than dumb stuff. I mean, why does Moronic have like 6000 or something more posts than anywhere else?

Most any forum have topics and sections like this. I don't exactly see whats particularly wrong with that either. Sometimes, I like seeing a Llama sever someone's hands and eat them. It doesn't have to be serious business 24/7 around here.

If anything is wrong here, it's these yoyos who go to other forums with this sense of entitlement.
Way to not get the point of what I was saying at all.