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Mewd
1501
Mewd
View playlists
CloseHere's a question:
When you see a RM game bragging about its length, do you actually feel discouraged from playing it?
There's something about indie games: The fact that you don't have to pay for it seems to drive the patience. Since I don't invest anything into a game I get for free, I am more likely to chuck it aside if it starts to become dull. Which almost seems ungrateful, but not totally since standards for indie games are lower than what games you pay for. (Hopefully.)
There's also the fact that there is no shortage of competition in the indie game community. Another game can be picked up in a few clicks. This sort of set up is liable to give us the attention span of humming birds.
An RM game that brags about having so-many hours of gameplay, usually just reads like it's going to be extremely dull. Lots of level grinding. Fetch Quest padding. Extremely slow paced cutscenes with crawling text. Pointless exposition. Irrelevant mini-games. An unreasonably long introduction, even.
As I am getting older, I am becoming rapidly more fond of 'Short but sweet' games. I have less time than I used to, and my threshold for rubbish games has diminished as I have played many, many good games.
I would argue that it is better for an RPG Maker game to be briefly fun, interesting, and maybe even poignant as opposed to offering longevity.
What's everyone else's take?
When you see a RM game bragging about its length, do you actually feel discouraged from playing it?
There's something about indie games: The fact that you don't have to pay for it seems to drive the patience. Since I don't invest anything into a game I get for free, I am more likely to chuck it aside if it starts to become dull. Which almost seems ungrateful, but not totally since standards for indie games are lower than what games you pay for. (Hopefully.)
There's also the fact that there is no shortage of competition in the indie game community. Another game can be picked up in a few clicks. This sort of set up is liable to give us the attention span of humming birds.
An RM game that brags about having so-many hours of gameplay, usually just reads like it's going to be extremely dull. Lots of level grinding. Fetch Quest padding. Extremely slow paced cutscenes with crawling text. Pointless exposition. Irrelevant mini-games. An unreasonably long introduction, even.
As I am getting older, I am becoming rapidly more fond of 'Short but sweet' games. I have less time than I used to, and my threshold for rubbish games has diminished as I have played many, many good games.
I would argue that it is better for an RPG Maker game to be briefly fun, interesting, and maybe even poignant as opposed to offering longevity.
What's everyone else's take?
I agree fully. I think it's my old age, or the many years watching Sesame Street growing up, that contributes to my terrible attention span and willingness to put up with boredom.
It's a sad but true reality that free indie games suffer the most from this, mostly because of the lack of any investment on the player's part, like you mention.
On that note, my next project wil be short and sweet (like HR was supposed to be.
It's a sad but true reality that free indie games suffer the most from this, mostly because of the lack of any investment on the player's part, like you mention.
On that note, my next project wil be short and sweet (like HR was supposed to be.
Exactly the same here. I don't even have that mentality with commercial games, I'd rather them not be 60+ hours. I think amateur developers should focus more on the fun aspects. Have it take less time to level. Maybe have none or quick levelling, maybe make the walk speed faster or easy ways to get around the world. If it ends up being 30 minutes long, hey, 30 minutes of fun is a whole lot better than 75 hours of boredom.
MK634
0
Lenght isn't necessarily the issue as is the content. All RPGs fail this in some way (some more than others). Early on RPGs were simple but difficult usually requiring level grinding at least once to finish the game. This would be due to the fact that the few generally short quests between the start and the finish of a game and as such they were not enough to gain the necessary levels/equipment to win. As time went on games became more complex with longer and more varied quests plus side-quests started to really take root. Unfortunately most RPGs can only end through the game proper which usually has its difficulty level set for a straight play through. However, in order to fully enjoy the game one must go through all of the side-quests, and they tend to exceed the standary difficulty usually moreso than the game proper itself. This tends to make characters more powerful than they need to be which removes the challenge and robs the finale of its thrilling climax.
These faults have only gotten worse in recent times. Stories are getting longer and more complicated with stunning CG cinematics and more unrealistic romances. The remarkably similar characters crop up in all the generic class types doing battle against all the usual suspects. Inovative Changes free since 1997 with the exception of the method indicating character growth all of which need to be taught to all gamers all over again. And getting to save the world one identical dungeon/contrived switch-flipping puzzle at a time.
While I'm not entirely burned out on RPGs yet I would perfer to see a little more effort in creating a unique looking game maybe set in the Stone Age, or staring someone other than the Genericly Emo Teen in need a better hair style/fashion sense that doesn't fall for the first Magical Healing Type he sees, or at least not forcing you to sit through lectures on how to use something that won't be of any practical use before the one-third mark of the game.
These faults have only gotten worse in recent times. Stories are getting longer and more complicated with stunning CG cinematics and more unrealistic romances. The remarkably similar characters crop up in all the generic class types doing battle against all the usual suspects. Inovative Changes free since 1997 with the exception of the method indicating character growth all of which need to be taught to all gamers all over again. And getting to save the world one identical dungeon/contrived switch-flipping puzzle at a time.
While I'm not entirely burned out on RPGs yet I would perfer to see a little more effort in creating a unique looking game maybe set in the Stone Age, or staring someone other than the Genericly Emo Teen in need a better hair style/fashion sense that doesn't fall for the first Magical Healing Type he sees, or at least not forcing you to sit through lectures on how to use something that won't be of any practical use before the one-third mark of the game.
yamata no orochi
184
I think it sort of depends on how well the creator sets up the game.
For example, Last Scenario for RPG Maker XP is a long game, but it has a medium (emphasis on medium) difficulty rating, a board game, lots of stuff to do, likable characters, etc. Even though its around 30 hrs long, it's pretty fun and, the way the author designed it, its length is actually manageable.
On the other hand, look at Laxius Power 3. Even though it's way longer than Last Scenario, nothing much seems to happen in the story and even though there's a huge amount of stuff to do, there's so much that the player has no idea where to go first. Plus, in order to get all of the secret items and characters you have to play Laxius Power 1 and 2, which are also really long games (although Laxius Power 1 seemed to do a better job of managing its length than 3 did).
For example, Last Scenario for RPG Maker XP is a long game, but it has a medium (emphasis on medium) difficulty rating, a board game, lots of stuff to do, likable characters, etc. Even though its around 30 hrs long, it's pretty fun and, the way the author designed it, its length is actually manageable.
On the other hand, look at Laxius Power 3. Even though it's way longer than Last Scenario, nothing much seems to happen in the story and even though there's a huge amount of stuff to do, there's so much that the player has no idea where to go first. Plus, in order to get all of the secret items and characters you have to play Laxius Power 1 and 2, which are also really long games (although Laxius Power 1 seemed to do a better job of managing its length than 3 did).
The Real Brickroad
2626
author=Mewd link=topic=58.msg756#msg756 date=1182141101
Here's a question:
When you see a RM game bragging about its length, do you actually feel discouraged from playing it?
There's something about indie games: The fact that you don't have to pay for it seems to drive the patience. Since I don't invest anything into a game I get for free, I am more likely to chuck it aside if it starts to become dull. Which almost seems ungrateful, but not totally since standards for indie games are lower than what games you pay for. (Hopefully.)
There's also the fact that there is no shortage of competition in the indie game community. Another game can be picked up in a few clicks. This sort of set up is liable to give us the attention span of humming birds.
An RM game that brags about having so-many hours of gameplay, usually just reads like it's going to be extremely dull. Lots of level grinding. Fetch Quest padding. Extremely slow paced cutscenes with crawling text. Pointless exposition. Irrelevant mini-games. An unreasonably long introduction, even.
As I am getting older, I am becoming rapidly more fond of 'Short but sweet' games. I have less time than I used to, and my threshold for rubbish games has diminished as I have played many, many good games.
I would argue that it is better for an RPG Maker game to be briefly fun, interesting, and maybe even poignant as opposed to offering longevity.
What's everyone else's take?
Have my babies.
trance2
500
For me, length doesn't really matter, whether it be an RM* game or a commercial one. I'll keep playing just as long as the content doesn't take a nosedive. Like, just as long as the game is fun, I'll keep playing. I don't think length should be focused on, like every game should have a certain length of time that it should be, but rather than the length be dictated by the content of the game. If there's a large amount of good, fun, interesting content, then it may be a long game. If not, then it can be short. There's no shame in having a short game, unless, of course, it's something that can be developed further and the creator didn't feel like making more because "long games are bad." =)
Erave
1444
The longer the game is, the more fun it better be to keep the attention span.
It's rough if it's an indie game, but I think length (if the whole game is well made) is a GREAT accomplishment. Shows dedication and hard work by the creator.
It's rough if it's an indie game, but I think length (if the whole game is well made) is a GREAT accomplishment. Shows dedication and hard work by the creator.
The Real Brickroad
2626
I don't like the trend in commercial RPGs to be really long. I like my games to peter out between 30and 50 hours, with maybe 10 hours of extra stuff if I really want to.
Right now I'm 55 hours into Suikoden 5, 60-some into Dragon Quest 8 and a whopping 74 into Final Fantasy 12. They're all insanely great games but, you know, I'm kind of ready for them to be over.
Right now I'm 55 hours into Suikoden 5, 60-some into Dragon Quest 8 and a whopping 74 into Final Fantasy 12. They're all insanely great games but, you know, I'm kind of ready for them to be over.
Erave
1444
author=The Real Brickroad link=topic=58.msg776#msg776 date=1182198450
I don't like the trend in commercial RPGs to be really long. I like my games to peter out between 30and 50 hours, with maybe 10 hours of extra stuff if I really want to.
Right now I'm 55 hours into Suikoden 5, 60-some into Dragon Quest 8 and a whopping 74 into Final Fantasy 12. They're all insanely great games but, you know, I'm kind of ready for them to be over.
Yea, but an rpgmaker game would be hard pressed to get more than 10 hours. So I don't think you're going to have to worry about it being THAT long.
My game is halfway done and it's around 4 and a half at the moment. Hoping for atleast 10 at the end.
I've seen a few RM topics where the creator posted that they would have a 30+ hour game. I think I saw 100+ hours in one of them, but I don't remember which one, nor did I keep reading after that.
I like commercial games that are 10-30 hours long. Any longer and it just drags out too long for me, and I lose interest and go play something else. I like when I beat a game, but I don't always have that much free time to play games.
I like commercial games that are 10-30 hours long. Any longer and it just drags out too long for me, and I lose interest and go play something else. I like when I beat a game, but I don't always have that much free time to play games.
Mewd
1501
If games that are long also offer QUALITY, it's all gravy. But still, most often length comes at the expense of SOMETHING. Long games can be great, especially if they succeed in overcoming the burden of being long.
But, one thing I am noticing is that a concise game has the chance to be more potent. It offers the chance for more effective story telling, a greater impact, and is generally just much less stressful. If you really have to commit to a game to finish it, than it tends to be more taxing. A game that is short and sweet is something you can enjoy over and over again fairly easily, whereas you may not way to slog through a hundred hours of a beefier game after the first time.
The longer a game is, the more challenging it is to make the entire thing consistently enjoyable. Sometimes I wonder if the RM community bites off more than it can chew with long games. This is not to knock people who actually succeed in making quality long games, but I wonder if it's more reasonable to polish up a short game than to pad out a long one.
Whatever you choose to do, more power to ya, but this is just my take on it all.
But, one thing I am noticing is that a concise game has the chance to be more potent. It offers the chance for more effective story telling, a greater impact, and is generally just much less stressful. If you really have to commit to a game to finish it, than it tends to be more taxing. A game that is short and sweet is something you can enjoy over and over again fairly easily, whereas you may not way to slog through a hundred hours of a beefier game after the first time.
The longer a game is, the more challenging it is to make the entire thing consistently enjoyable. Sometimes I wonder if the RM community bites off more than it can chew with long games. This is not to knock people who actually succeed in making quality long games, but I wonder if it's more reasonable to polish up a short game than to pad out a long one.
Whatever you choose to do, more power to ya, but this is just my take on it all.
Erave
1444
No doubt Mewd, keeping it shorter makes it easier to be consistent and focus on having the smaller length be overall more fun and effective. But cutting ideas short just for people with short attention spans is selling your own game short.
Mewd
1501
Right.
I'm not really suggesting that one do disservice to a story in question, mind. It's good to give everything the time it needs. I WOULD suggest, though, that spreading an idea too thin is just as bad as cutting it too short.
I don't resent long games, or think that people should stop making them, I just think that short games are under-rated.
It always boils down to quality.
I'm not really suggesting that one do disservice to a story in question, mind. It's good to give everything the time it needs. I WOULD suggest, though, that spreading an idea too thin is just as bad as cutting it too short.
I don't resent long games, or think that people should stop making them, I just think that short games are under-rated.
It always boils down to quality.
Erave
1444
Short games are always the best because they usually are the only finished ones. The epic team projects always are so ambitious that they never get past making all the custom systems and graphics, and there is no gameplay.
Well atleast for RM Games.
There are very few "epic/long games" that are finished besides Dragon's Destiny and Three the Hard Way. Can anyone think of any others? Most I know were cancelled demos (like Channel Changer :P)
Well atleast for RM Games.
There are very few "epic/long games" that are finished besides Dragon's Destiny and Three the Hard Way. Can anyone think of any others? Most I know were cancelled demos (like Channel Changer :P)
Gadreel
4
Cheers to you, Mewd. Totally agree!
If a creator is ballsy and stupid enough to brag about anything 30+ hours, it's over. I will not play it.
Nice 5 to 10-hour chapters would be so much better. The reason behind this is because if I'm 20-something hours into a game and I find that the dialog is getting too long, I will instantly stop paying attention to the story and if you want my attention it better be CUTSCENES or something FLASHY and AWESOME. Same goes for my hentai. I will DROP the game into the abyss known as my Recycle Bin(renamed to my Trash Bin because I don't believe "Recycling" has anything to do with computing in the software sense and you aren't going to recycle what is in it) if that damned thing starts to get too long in the dialog.
Short bursts in the dialog will suffice after 20 hours and if it is decided that it is completely and utterly necessary to make it longer, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY MATERIA, move stuff around(animated characters, expressions, mobile acting, panning, flashiness etc.. e.g. Brickroad's MARANDA or just his rm2kfics in general. Excellent examples of nothing BUT dialog and ACTING and animations that make it not stagnant!)
I'll sit down for long periods of time if the thing is interesting. I think the last game I actually sat down all the way was Crestfallen... part 1 and that's kinda old I guess but my attention span is so very terrible these days that you need to give me something that catches my attention and redirects me back to the game.
ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!
Directors say ACTION for a reason! Make the damned thing full of it and lay off the road of stagnation! You can still use RTP as long as you make ACTION, guys!
Playing a game that uses a neat lighting effects, complicating combat systems, and gnarly menu systems isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about story driving the game, effects just compliment it. So STORY it up! :D Read a book and try to write your story like a book. There aren't bouts of:
"<insert text>" said <name> x a baijillion.
I like something more like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"<insert text>" <name> murmured to <him/her>self while shuffling through the dark chamber hallway. The only light source resonating from the stairway leading down into somewhere. It blanketed <name>'s face with a dull red haze.
As <name> drew closer to the entrance, dark figures began to shift and dance in the darkness. Playing with <his/her> eyes. Barely visible. All peering. <Name>'s shadow's silhouette began to shift and move and a raw smell of burnt flesh crept into <his/her> nose.
<His/Her> steps echoed and with the echo, a sound accompanied... "<insert text>..." a whisper. "...<insert text>" All around <him/her> the whispers came.
"<insert text>!" <name> screamed. "<insert text>?"
A clicking sound. Behind <him/her>. It began to grow louder until the sound was in sequence with the whispers. <Name> began to laugh menacingly. Flashes of lightning cackled around <him/her>. This was it.
<fin>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Little more animated than just dialog and zero acting. My writing is horrible. I'm a graphics designer. :P Anyway! I've seen it way too many times in the Maker scene and I find it totally annoying. Please fix kthx?
If a creator is ballsy and stupid enough to brag about anything 30+ hours, it's over. I will not play it.
Nice 5 to 10-hour chapters would be so much better. The reason behind this is because if I'm 20-something hours into a game and I find that the dialog is getting too long, I will instantly stop paying attention to the story and if you want my attention it better be CUTSCENES or something FLASHY and AWESOME. Same goes for my hentai. I will DROP the game into the abyss known as my Recycle Bin(renamed to my Trash Bin because I don't believe "Recycling" has anything to do with computing in the software sense and you aren't going to recycle what is in it) if that damned thing starts to get too long in the dialog.
Short bursts in the dialog will suffice after 20 hours and if it is decided that it is completely and utterly necessary to make it longer, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY MATERIA, move stuff around(animated characters, expressions, mobile acting, panning, flashiness etc.. e.g. Brickroad's MARANDA or just his rm2kfics in general. Excellent examples of nothing BUT dialog and ACTING and animations that make it not stagnant!)
I'll sit down for long periods of time if the thing is interesting. I think the last game I actually sat down all the way was Crestfallen... part 1 and that's kinda old I guess but my attention span is so very terrible these days that you need to give me something that catches my attention and redirects me back to the game.
ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!
Directors say ACTION for a reason! Make the damned thing full of it and lay off the road of stagnation! You can still use RTP as long as you make ACTION, guys!
Playing a game that uses a neat lighting effects, complicating combat systems, and gnarly menu systems isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about story driving the game, effects just compliment it. So STORY it up! :D Read a book and try to write your story like a book. There aren't bouts of:
"<insert text>" said <name> x a baijillion.
I like something more like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"<insert text>" <name> murmured to <him/her>self while shuffling through the dark chamber hallway. The only light source resonating from the stairway leading down into somewhere. It blanketed <name>'s face with a dull red haze.
As <name> drew closer to the entrance, dark figures began to shift and dance in the darkness. Playing with <his/her> eyes. Barely visible. All peering. <Name>'s shadow's silhouette began to shift and move and a raw smell of burnt flesh crept into <his/her> nose.
<His/Her> steps echoed and with the echo, a sound accompanied... "<insert text>..." a whisper. "...<insert text>" All around <him/her> the whispers came.
"<insert text>!" <name> screamed. "<insert text>?"
A clicking sound. Behind <him/her>. It began to grow louder until the sound was in sequence with the whispers. <Name> began to laugh menacingly. Flashes of lightning cackled around <him/her>. This was it.
<fin>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Little more animated than just dialog and zero acting. My writing is horrible. I'm a graphics designer. :P Anyway! I've seen it way too many times in the Maker scene and I find it totally annoying. Please fix kthx?
The Man
0
I tend to agree for the most part. I love longer games, but the story has to progress and be good. I am very forgiving if the story starts slow. Why? Most stories do. It's after a little plot and character development that the player SHOULD start to like or dislike the characters. If they do, and the story is good you can aim for a longer game. If you get a 50+ hour game, and do things right, the player should still be saying "Man, I wish it was longer."
Very hard though, to hook people at the beginning. The greasest story in the world will still loose people after the opening "It was a dark and stormy night". How do you combat this? I'm not to sure. I try to make the start very easy and fast. Fast no brain battles, (And I mean very fast), some flashy effects if you can do it, and good mapping. If the player gets hooked then you can reduce the Flash, make the battles harder, and add the hours to the game. Of course, doing that you get comments like "It's just a button mash". But you can't please everyone.
Very hard though, to hook people at the beginning. The greasest story in the world will still loose people after the opening "It was a dark and stormy night". How do you combat this? I'm not to sure. I try to make the start very easy and fast. Fast no brain battles, (And I mean very fast), some flashy effects if you can do it, and good mapping. If the player gets hooked then you can reduce the Flash, make the battles harder, and add the hours to the game. Of course, doing that you get comments like "It's just a button mash". But you can't please everyone.
SovanJedi
320
To me, length isn't as much of an issue as I thought it would as I got older. Of course I have less time to devote to games nowadays than I used to, but it does not mean that I will turn my nose up against games that boast tens of hours of gameplay. But what really gets me these days is the time it takes to get into a play session of a game, or just as importantly how long it takes to get out of a play session.
Take for example my rather unashamedly lengthy 200+ hour playtime of Pokemon Pearl so far. In most cases that is a ridiculous amount of time to devote to any one game. However several plus points to the game (not to mention the DS design itself) means it takes mere seconds to jump back into the game, in exactly the same position as where I first left it, and crack right down to business. Not only that, but the time it takes to leave the session and still keep my progress is even shorter - in fact it is simply a case of closing the DS lid shut and putting it away, which is an absolute lifesaver provided the battery stays alive when in sleep mode. There is no time needed waffling through menus, loading screens or walking back to where I was. Minimun setup time, maximum playtime, where I want it and when I want it and however long I want it.
How does this apply to RPG Maker games? Rather a lot, actually. While RM** games have the added bonus of not needing to worry about too many frontend menus and loading times, several elements in the design of the game can interfere with the playtime. Slow walk speeds, slow stop-start menu screens and backtracking to find that save point so you can save and quit the game make the game drag on and feel too long no matter how lengthy the game itself takes to play. If all of this was fixed then I would have no qualms about games boasting big playtimes.
So the quick conclusion to this rather wordy chinwag is, it's not so much how long it is but what they do with the time that's important, and if it's wasted on a poorly-designed inner system then I have no time for that.
Take for example my rather unashamedly lengthy 200+ hour playtime of Pokemon Pearl so far. In most cases that is a ridiculous amount of time to devote to any one game. However several plus points to the game (not to mention the DS design itself) means it takes mere seconds to jump back into the game, in exactly the same position as where I first left it, and crack right down to business. Not only that, but the time it takes to leave the session and still keep my progress is even shorter - in fact it is simply a case of closing the DS lid shut and putting it away, which is an absolute lifesaver provided the battery stays alive when in sleep mode. There is no time needed waffling through menus, loading screens or walking back to where I was. Minimun setup time, maximum playtime, where I want it and when I want it and however long I want it.
How does this apply to RPG Maker games? Rather a lot, actually. While RM** games have the added bonus of not needing to worry about too many frontend menus and loading times, several elements in the design of the game can interfere with the playtime. Slow walk speeds, slow stop-start menu screens and backtracking to find that save point so you can save and quit the game make the game drag on and feel too long no matter how lengthy the game itself takes to play. If all of this was fixed then I would have no qualms about games boasting big playtimes.
So the quick conclusion to this rather wordy chinwag is, it's not so much how long it is but what they do with the time that's important, and if it's wasted on a poorly-designed inner system then I have no time for that.
Shadowtext
120
author=Sovan Jedi link=topic=58.msg953#msg953 date=1182522306I have long felt, and your response only reassures me about this belief, that all games should have at the very least a "Suspend Play At Any Point Save," that would let the player stop whenever he needs to and start back at exactly the same place, even if loading it were to immediately delete that save. I first really noticed the strength of the concept with Harvest Moon: Friends of Mineral Town, which I've still played more than just about any other game, but Pokémon has exactly the same advantage (and even more so with the easy Suspend mode that shutting the DS brings) so it's a great example. Of course these don't use Suspend Saves so much as just letting you save anywhere to begin with, but the effect is basically the same. Except, in Pokemon, mid-battle. But you can use the DS sleep mode there, so it still works out.
How does this apply to RPG Maker games? Rather a lot, actually. While RM** games have the added bonus of not needing to worry about too many frontend menus and loading times, several elements in the design of the game can interfere with the playtime. Slow walk speeds, slow stop-start menu screens and backtracking to find that save point so you can save and quit the game make the game drag on and feel too long no matter how lengthy the game itself takes to play. If all of this was fixed then I would have no qualms about games boasting big playtimes.
So the quick conclusion to this rather wordy chinwag is, it's not so much how long it is but what they do with the time that's important, and if it's wasted on a poorly-designed inner system then I have no time for that.
It also makes me hesitant of any sort of Game Over system, as well as load times and anything else that makes the experience less streamlined. Plenty of people are going to disagree with me, especially on the "No Gameover" part, but I've often felt like Game Overs are just an easy (read: lazy) way of adding superficial challenge to a game.
But yeah. Make everything quick and streamlined, and easy to start or stop at any time, and people will have much less issue with playing a lot of it. It works better on portable consoles than it does on PC, but there's a bit of carry over even there.
...of course with amateur games, part of the problem lies in making people want to keep playing in the first place.
Tri-tail
20
Games that have 10-15 hours of gameplay the first time through and 3-4 hours of new stuff a second time through are just about perfect. Generally though, most games aren't good enough to hold attention for that long in the amateur department.
