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CULTURE OF CRASS, APATHY AND CYNICISM
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kentona
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CloseCulture of crass, apathy and cynicism
It is an old saying that culture and apathy are likely to go together. A great many zealous reformers have encountered among educated men whom they wished to enlist an indifference that was much more chilling and hopeless than active opposition would have been, and have turned in despair to the "plain people."
So, "plain people", I am turning to you. (Yes, I am implying that I am a zealous reformer).
I want to build a positive culture of reciprocal altruism here at RMN, and I need your help.
People talk with great affection about these mythical days of yore during the early years of the english RPG making scene. People would gather-round, create their games, and the process of development and the end result were celebrated because things were new and exciting and dreams finally seemed possible. They speak of a culture of encouragement and reciprocal altruism. Perhaps it was born of naivety and youthful exuberance, but whatever it's source, it was wondrous.
Have things changed so much?
I can't really say - I wasn't there at the start. I came into the scene as a lurker sometime around 2004 and didn't really start making a mark until 2006 or so. But the culture of cynicism, apathy, disdain and crassitude was evident. It may have even peaked then. I could be biased in this view because I spent my time at GW back then and it was rapidly devolving into a cesspool of petty hatred and apathy. But whatever. It seemed that anyone making an earnest attempt to make an RPG was ridiculed and teased, like some bullies of an elementary school picking on the eager kids. It was quite childish.
But that was back then. With the release of XP and VX we can see another resurgence of excitement and exuberance with that new wave of young makers making their first foray into RPG making. Sadly, we don't do much to foster that excitement and encourage it's development. Kind of the opposite, really. We stick to our own little domains and attack any who may encroach on it and our way of doing things. And if we notice someone doing something different than what we do, we act hostile. "RM2k3 sucks! RMVX is blocky! People at RRR are stoopid lol! You're a drama-queen! Wah wah wah wah!"
What I like about the RM community, and RMN in particular, is that it has drawn together a collection of like-minded individuals that span a good cross-section of the general public into the same place, and revolves around something I love: RPG design and creation.
Can we make it better?
"Yes We Can!" -Obama
Circling back to GW, one of the reasons I feel that it started to fail was a strong culture of apathy and cynicism from those supposedly at the helm of the site. The homepage lay stagnant, the staff indifferent and cynical, if not outright hostile, and the memberbase dwindled as it grew more bitter and jaded. I tired of it and left during that exodus to Ghostlight (and only came back after that Township debacle left me without a home. Thankfully some dude named Craze invited me to #rm2k or who knows what would have happened to me? No Hero's Realm, probably). I don't want RMN to fail.
Luckily for us, we have had good leadership and direction from a seasoned core of RM community members. Holbert The Benefactor and WIP The Developer, along with their confidants, (re)built RMN into a vibrant and growing community. I was proud to be a part of that, however minimal (and disruptive!) my role.
Sadly though, time passed, other priorities took shape and soon that strong core fractured. Holbert retired, I left, Brickroad and BrandonAbley (and others) disappeared, and WIP was burdened with other work and couldn't devote those heroic levels of time and dedication to the site. Apathy and indifference, while not intentional, arose. I know from experience that the staff right now is next to impossible to engage. Any attempts to initiate a discussion usually dies within 10 posts. That's not a good thing, and it needs to change. You can't have a vibrant community without vibrant leadership (at least, for a community as small as ours).
Of course, the community at large is not faultless. We seem to be mired in this mindset of superiority with the symptom of not taking anything seriously. Everything is a joke, and "RM is serious business lol". yeah, some people can take it too seriously, but some level of earnestness is required for our hobby. Let's not belittle that.
Some of the standard metrics to ascertain activity, such as reviews and articles, seem low. More than the early days of the site, but more can be done, surely.
I propose that we do the following:
1) Stop being crass
2) Keep the moronic posts confined to the Moronic forums
3) Do something now and again to give back to the community
4) Encourage the development of RPGs without being cynical or rude
5) Welcome new people to the site
What can we do for the community?
a) Play someone else's game
b) Leave a comment
c) Write a review
d) Organize an event
e) Write an article
f) Suggest ways to improve some function or aspect of the site
Sure, some people can't take feedback of any sort, but I assure you there are far more people out there looking for any feedback than there are that lash out against negative feedback. And if you're one of those people waiting for feedback, get out there and leave feedback on someone else's game. Or 10 other games. It's human nature to want to reciprocate, so maybe one of those 10 will do the same. It can't hurt to try.
Let's try to foster that exuberance of yore. Semper gams.
...At least, that's my view, from up here on my high horse.
I don't know how to articulate it precisely, but I get this sense that we are slowly devolving into a(nother) cesspool of jaded cynicism. We attack other sites like GW, and RRR and RVX.net and ridicule them (and extend that attitude to any people coming over from those sites). Obviously young and/or new member's (naive) ideas are shot down outright. We seem to be petty in our posts and actions through perceived hurts and attacks. We are crass throughout the site.
I mean, I am a strong proponent of the community aspect of RMN, and spots like Moronic are needed as an outlet for goofing around, because sometimes it's just fun to hang with people around the community. But it really does need to be contained to Moronic. That kind of rascally behaviour shouldn't seep into other parts of the site because it undermines it.
I don't like new members feeling unwelcome. I don't like that we attack and ridicule other sites. I don't like that we have so much trouble engaging the community to both 1) contribute to the site through reviews and the like and 2) participate in events and discussions.
Does anyone else feel this way sometimes? Do you have any insights or ideas? Do you really care? Maybe I am overstating the severity of the problem of crassitude, apathy and cynicism.
It is an old saying that culture and apathy are likely to go together. A great many zealous reformers have encountered among educated men whom they wished to enlist an indifference that was much more chilling and hopeless than active opposition would have been, and have turned in despair to the "plain people."
So, "plain people", I am turning to you. (Yes, I am implying that I am a zealous reformer).
I want to build a positive culture of reciprocal altruism here at RMN, and I need your help.
People talk with great affection about these mythical days of yore during the early years of the english RPG making scene. People would gather-round, create their games, and the process of development and the end result were celebrated because things were new and exciting and dreams finally seemed possible. They speak of a culture of encouragement and reciprocal altruism. Perhaps it was born of naivety and youthful exuberance, but whatever it's source, it was wondrous.
Have things changed so much?
I can't really say - I wasn't there at the start. I came into the scene as a lurker sometime around 2004 and didn't really start making a mark until 2006 or so. But the culture of cynicism, apathy, disdain and crassitude was evident. It may have even peaked then. I could be biased in this view because I spent my time at GW back then and it was rapidly devolving into a cesspool of petty hatred and apathy. But whatever. It seemed that anyone making an earnest attempt to make an RPG was ridiculed and teased, like some bullies of an elementary school picking on the eager kids. It was quite childish.
But that was back then. With the release of XP and VX we can see another resurgence of excitement and exuberance with that new wave of young makers making their first foray into RPG making. Sadly, we don't do much to foster that excitement and encourage it's development. Kind of the opposite, really. We stick to our own little domains and attack any who may encroach on it and our way of doing things. And if we notice someone doing something different than what we do, we act hostile. "RM2k3 sucks! RMVX is blocky! People at RRR are stoopid lol! You're a drama-queen! Wah wah wah wah!"
What I like about the RM community, and RMN in particular, is that it has drawn together a collection of like-minded individuals that span a good cross-section of the general public into the same place, and revolves around something I love: RPG design and creation.
Can we make it better?
"Yes We Can!" -Obama
Circling back to GW, one of the reasons I feel that it started to fail was a strong culture of apathy and cynicism from those supposedly at the helm of the site. The homepage lay stagnant, the staff indifferent and cynical, if not outright hostile, and the memberbase dwindled as it grew more bitter and jaded. I tired of it and left during that exodus to Ghostlight (and only came back after that Township debacle left me without a home. Thankfully some dude named Craze invited me to #rm2k or who knows what would have happened to me? No Hero's Realm, probably). I don't want RMN to fail.
Luckily for us, we have had good leadership and direction from a seasoned core of RM community members. Holbert The Benefactor and WIP The Developer, along with their confidants, (re)built RMN into a vibrant and growing community. I was proud to be a part of that, however minimal (and disruptive!) my role.
Sadly though, time passed, other priorities took shape and soon that strong core fractured. Holbert retired, I left, Brickroad and BrandonAbley (and others) disappeared, and WIP was burdened with other work and couldn't devote those heroic levels of time and dedication to the site. Apathy and indifference, while not intentional, arose. I know from experience that the staff right now is next to impossible to engage. Any attempts to initiate a discussion usually dies within 10 posts. That's not a good thing, and it needs to change. You can't have a vibrant community without vibrant leadership (at least, for a community as small as ours).
Of course, the community at large is not faultless. We seem to be mired in this mindset of superiority with the symptom of not taking anything seriously. Everything is a joke, and "RM is serious business lol". yeah, some people can take it too seriously, but some level of earnestness is required for our hobby. Let's not belittle that.
Some of the standard metrics to ascertain activity, such as reviews and articles, seem low. More than the early days of the site, but more can be done, surely.
I propose that we do the following:
1) Stop being crass
2) Keep the moronic posts confined to the Moronic forums
3) Do something now and again to give back to the community
4) Encourage the development of RPGs without being cynical or rude
5) Welcome new people to the site
What can we do for the community?
a) Play someone else's game
b) Leave a comment
c) Write a review
d) Organize an event
e) Write an article
f) Suggest ways to improve some function or aspect of the site
Sure, some people can't take feedback of any sort, but I assure you there are far more people out there looking for any feedback than there are that lash out against negative feedback. And if you're one of those people waiting for feedback, get out there and leave feedback on someone else's game. Or 10 other games. It's human nature to want to reciprocate, so maybe one of those 10 will do the same. It can't hurt to try.
Let's try to foster that exuberance of yore. Semper gams.
...At least, that's my view, from up here on my high horse.
I don't know how to articulate it precisely, but I get this sense that we are slowly devolving into a(nother) cesspool of jaded cynicism. We attack other sites like GW, and RRR and RVX.net and ridicule them (and extend that attitude to any people coming over from those sites). Obviously young and/or new member's (naive) ideas are shot down outright. We seem to be petty in our posts and actions through perceived hurts and attacks. We are crass throughout the site.
I mean, I am a strong proponent of the community aspect of RMN, and spots like Moronic are needed as an outlet for goofing around, because sometimes it's just fun to hang with people around the community. But it really does need to be contained to Moronic. That kind of rascally behaviour shouldn't seep into other parts of the site because it undermines it.
I don't like new members feeling unwelcome. I don't like that we attack and ridicule other sites. I don't like that we have so much trouble engaging the community to both 1) contribute to the site through reviews and the like and 2) participate in events and discussions.
Does anyone else feel this way sometimes? Do you have any insights or ideas? Do you really care? Maybe I am overstating the severity of the problem of crassitude, apathy and cynicism.
I found this to be a really poignant editorial, made more so by the fact that this is a problem I imagine every single one of us has been faced with or been troubled by at some point. I am still pretty new here and I have felt pretty welcomed, but I have seen enough adversity to know that it is a real problem we need to deal with.
I hope we can come together as a community and find solutions for these problems. These aren't "someone else's problem." They're all of ours.
I'll start by saying I agree with most of the points kentona has proposed so far, and think this community would be a much nicer place if we adopted even half of them. I especially agree about the hostility towards other communities, though I never visit them so I have no basis on which to judge why that hostility even exists.
I hope we can come together as a community and find solutions for these problems. These aren't "someone else's problem." They're all of ours.
I'll start by saying I agree with most of the points kentona has proposed so far, and think this community would be a much nicer place if we adopted even half of them. I especially agree about the hostility towards other communities, though I never visit them so I have no basis on which to judge why that hostility even exists.
Silviera
2891
As someone who's only been around for 6 months or so (maybe less? I'm bad at keeping track of time), I'm not convinced things are as bad you see them to be. Although I've certainly seen everything you describe at one point or another, I just as frequently see eager new hopefuls and people willing to take a few minutes to help them out.
Still, it's certainly not a bad idea to try and improve things. Some people who ask 'stupid' questions may get a bad reaction from someone and leave the site entirely. It's important to remember how confusing everything was the first time you opened the program (especially if you have no prior programming knowledge).
Also, as someone who has written a decent number of reviews I can say that most people are quite receptive to feedback, even horribly negative feedback. A few people might take a review the wrong way and become quite vocal about it but when it comes down to it most people are very interested in having their games played and hearing about how they can improve.
Still, it's certainly not a bad idea to try and improve things. Some people who ask 'stupid' questions may get a bad reaction from someone and leave the site entirely. It's important to remember how confusing everything was the first time you opened the program (especially if you have no prior programming knowledge).
Also, as someone who has written a decent number of reviews I can say that most people are quite receptive to feedback, even horribly negative feedback. A few people might take a review the wrong way and become quite vocal about it but when it comes down to it most people are very interested in having their games played and hearing about how they can improve.
Shinan
4314
I'll be apathetic in this. It is the truth. I will stand by and see awesome things come and go and see how people always go "man wasn't it better back in the days?".
No matter what those days were.
I'll be cynical here and say that it won't get worse!
No matter what those days were.
I'll be cynical here and say that it won't get worse!
Well...
I've been around the rpgmaking community for quite some time now... using rpgmaker for more than a decade, and participating on online forums since around 2004. I've been part of many different RPGMaking communities (at least 7) with different languages (English, Portuguese and Spanish). I always liked them because, at the very least, seeing all that people making stuff about talking about stuff would motivate me to work on my own stuff.
My base community had been GW for quite some time, but I started to feel a lot of what you mentioned in your post... apathy, cynicism, and plain negativeness. There seemed to be a division between those who actually (and actively) worked on their projects, and those who just liked to hang around the community, ramble about random stuff and play the "gamemaking expert" role to criticize other people's projects and ideas... and sadly, time made the first group much smaller and the second predominant. I'm not just talking about GW, but the fate of most of the communities I've been part of. I got to the point where I felt gamemaking was dying, and I lost motivation to work on my own stuff.
I'm saying all just to say that, when I found about RMN's existence, it was a bliss. RMN was like a dream site, because it's not forum-centered, it's focused on the games themselves, and the website desing/layout really seemed like a dream com true to me when I first saw it. Honestly, I'm not joking, I was awed the first time I opened http://rpgmaker.net/. It's like everything in the site is designed to motivate people to work on their stuff, and interact with each other's stuff. And people actually seem engaged in creating things and helping each other.
My point is... yes, this whole apathy phenomenon is real, but I don't see it in RMN.... not yet, at least. I'm glad you're worried about making a vibrant leadership so that the whole community can get even more vibrant, but I do think you're overstating the severity of the problem. I really love RMN
I've been around the rpgmaking community for quite some time now... using rpgmaker for more than a decade, and participating on online forums since around 2004. I've been part of many different RPGMaking communities (at least 7) with different languages (English, Portuguese and Spanish). I always liked them because, at the very least, seeing all that people making stuff about talking about stuff would motivate me to work on my own stuff.
My base community had been GW for quite some time, but I started to feel a lot of what you mentioned in your post... apathy, cynicism, and plain negativeness. There seemed to be a division between those who actually (and actively) worked on their projects, and those who just liked to hang around the community, ramble about random stuff and play the "gamemaking expert" role to criticize other people's projects and ideas... and sadly, time made the first group much smaller and the second predominant. I'm not just talking about GW, but the fate of most of the communities I've been part of. I got to the point where I felt gamemaking was dying, and I lost motivation to work on my own stuff.
I'm saying all just to say that, when I found about RMN's existence, it was a bliss. RMN was like a dream site, because it's not forum-centered, it's focused on the games themselves, and the website desing/layout really seemed like a dream com true to me when I first saw it. Honestly, I'm not joking, I was awed the first time I opened http://rpgmaker.net/. It's like everything in the site is designed to motivate people to work on their stuff, and interact with each other's stuff. And people actually seem engaged in creating things and helping each other.
My point is... yes, this whole apathy phenomenon is real, but I don't see it in RMN.... not yet, at least. I'm glad you're worried about making a vibrant leadership so that the whole community can get even more vibrant, but I do think you're overstating the severity of the problem. I really love RMN
Yoshio
774
I have yet to see the people who's games I have shown the most interest in (Max Mcgee, Merte, Kentona) give Allinlia the time of day but I like what you're saying.
I have noticed that people have been enjoying the practice of picking on certain topics to sound funny \, and while I admit I laugh at and enjoy such posts as much as anyone it is not very helpful.
Also, I've noticed that people aren't paying as much attention to newly uploaded games, granted they have been coming in sets of gigantic waves lately. (not referencing my project for once since its ooooold.)
What you are describing has happened at some point to every site I've been to. I think it might have something to do with instant messaging groups but that's just a pattern I noticed. However, people become more helpful and contributive and less...well you know, when this is called to thier attention. Sometimes you get a noobie person asking a dumb question but its better to try and keep the funny responses to irc since potentially cool members see this sort of thing and get scared off from being active in the community and just use the site as another place to store thier game.
I'll try to show more interest in other projects during my down time from working on my game. perhaps people are just workin hard on thier own stuff?
I have noticed that people have been enjoying the practice of picking on certain topics to sound funny \, and while I admit I laugh at and enjoy such posts as much as anyone it is not very helpful.
Also, I've noticed that people aren't paying as much attention to newly uploaded games, granted they have been coming in sets of gigantic waves lately. (not referencing my project for once since its ooooold.)
What you are describing has happened at some point to every site I've been to. I think it might have something to do with instant messaging groups but that's just a pattern I noticed. However, people become more helpful and contributive and less...well you know, when this is called to thier attention. Sometimes you get a noobie person asking a dumb question but its better to try and keep the funny responses to irc since potentially cool members see this sort of thing and get scared off from being active in the community and just use the site as another place to store thier game.
I'll try to show more interest in other projects during my down time from working on my game. perhaps people are just workin hard on thier own stuff?
To be honest I was worried that this post would generate little discussion, driving my point home (though no one would care). Thanks for proving me wrong with the thoughtful posts, everyone.
And I am one of the worst offenders when it comes to playing games. I just don't make the time investment anymore. To make up for all that I take away from the site I try to give back through the writing of articles like FUNdamentals and newsletters, and to post introspective essays on the RM scene.
And I am one of the worst offenders when it comes to playing games. I just don't make the time investment anymore. To make up for all that I take away from the site I try to give back through the writing of articles like FUNdamentals and newsletters, and to post introspective essays on the RM scene.
catmitts
4862
I kind of dislike bullying and circlejerkish bullshit too, like those stupid reviews that exist only so the reviewers can make pretend-witty remarks and stupid internet jokes about screenshots taken out of context, or the way the whole community seems to suddenly jump on random games just so they can feel good about their own work (like what happened to that project doad game or that one rhythm-action game which got four half-star reviews over the course of like a day).
This is possibly hypocritical because I have no real problems with mocking stuff or being a dick myself but I try to restrict this to attacking this kind of circlejerkish behavior and meanness. I don't particular see the point of whaling on some 14-year-old's anime game but I do dislike it when the entire community seems bent on reinforcing each others lazy and unhealthy ideas about cliches and unoriginality and fucking polish. I also try to be as open as possible with what I DO admire and appreciate and like so that people get a fair shot at me as well. I don't think it's unfair to expect some degree of actual creative effort if people want critique etc on their games and I don't really see the point of going N-NOOOO at any criticism harsher than chipset critique. Steel from GW made a great point about this once when he talked about the whole "nice guy" thing in critiquing culture here, where you point out some meaningless technical fault so you can give criticism and still come off as a nice guy. This is why Mister Big T can post screenshots of 10-year-old anime girls being sodomised by dragons and the next person to post will go UMMM THAT MAP LOOKS A BIT EMPTY :/ .
So yeah, I do think it's too easy to fall into some default FEH....FEH attitude but I don't think the antidote to this is to suggest some vague Get Happy! thing. I think the antidote is to actually raise and develop and encourage meaningful standards about what you create and how you act and then work from there. To actually discuss and constantly question things instead of falling into intellectual laziness and circlejerking. I don't care if someone gets their feelings hurt but it should be for a good reason, as part of an actual discussion and exchange of ideas. And both the excessively negative and the excessively positive ways of doing things are both kind of unhealthy deviations from this goal.
This is possibly hypocritical because I have no real problems with mocking stuff or being a dick myself but I try to restrict this to attacking this kind of circlejerkish behavior and meanness. I don't particular see the point of whaling on some 14-year-old's anime game but I do dislike it when the entire community seems bent on reinforcing each others lazy and unhealthy ideas about cliches and unoriginality and fucking polish. I also try to be as open as possible with what I DO admire and appreciate and like so that people get a fair shot at me as well. I don't think it's unfair to expect some degree of actual creative effort if people want critique etc on their games and I don't really see the point of going N-NOOOO at any criticism harsher than chipset critique. Steel from GW made a great point about this once when he talked about the whole "nice guy" thing in critiquing culture here, where you point out some meaningless technical fault so you can give criticism and still come off as a nice guy. This is why Mister Big T can post screenshots of 10-year-old anime girls being sodomised by dragons and the next person to post will go UMMM THAT MAP LOOKS A BIT EMPTY :/ .
So yeah, I do think it's too easy to fall into some default FEH....FEH attitude but I don't think the antidote to this is to suggest some vague Get Happy! thing. I think the antidote is to actually raise and develop and encourage meaningful standards about what you create and how you act and then work from there. To actually discuss and constantly question things instead of falling into intellectual laziness and circlejerking. I don't care if someone gets their feelings hurt but it should be for a good reason, as part of an actual discussion and exchange of ideas. And both the excessively negative and the excessively positive ways of doing things are both kind of unhealthy deviations from this goal.
I think the antidote is to actually raise and develop and encourage meaningful standards about what you create and how you act and then work from there. To actually discuss and constantly question things instead of falling into intellectual laziness and circlejerking. I don't care if someone gets their feelings hurt but it should be for a good reason, as part of an actual discussion and exchange of ideasWell said! Much better than the vagueries I presented.
EnderX
562
Kentona, may I request a bit of information?
How does one 'give back' if one's time is limited (as my available gaming-time is), and one's skills are not largely in discussion? My three main interests in an RM environment are trying to make the battle engine do things it's not supposed to, without resorting to scripts, similar treatment of various event systems (I'm working on an in-game informational DB for a guy from RRR at the moment...I need to get back to him, actually), and generating sprite recolors/frankensprites of what I can find from the SNES days of Square. I've got a fair number of 2k3-formatted graphics files on one of my boxes as a result of this, and I'd love to be able to share them with the community, but I'm not certain exactly how to go about doing so - while I'll admit there is an 'artistic' forum, what I'm thinking of is something that I don't consider 'artistic' - and which I'm not certain would fit correctly in there.
Most RM game-dev sites I've been to have had a way to upload visual or audio resources for others to use, and displayed those for members and visitors to look over. Perhaps it's my own tunnel vision, but I'm failing to see that here - and considering where I see my skills as sitting, I'm having trouble figuring out how to give back without that. I don't want to -show off-, which is what I get the feeling the artistic forum is for, I just want to -present- what I've done so others can use it.
Any suggestions on this issue?
How does one 'give back' if one's time is limited (as my available gaming-time is), and one's skills are not largely in discussion? My three main interests in an RM environment are trying to make the battle engine do things it's not supposed to, without resorting to scripts, similar treatment of various event systems (I'm working on an in-game informational DB for a guy from RRR at the moment...I need to get back to him, actually), and generating sprite recolors/frankensprites of what I can find from the SNES days of Square. I've got a fair number of 2k3-formatted graphics files on one of my boxes as a result of this, and I'd love to be able to share them with the community, but I'm not certain exactly how to go about doing so - while I'll admit there is an 'artistic' forum, what I'm thinking of is something that I don't consider 'artistic' - and which I'm not certain would fit correctly in there.
Most RM game-dev sites I've been to have had a way to upload visual or audio resources for others to use, and displayed those for members and visitors to look over. Perhaps it's my own tunnel vision, but I'm failing to see that here - and considering where I see my skills as sitting, I'm having trouble figuring out how to give back without that. I don't want to -show off-, which is what I get the feeling the artistic forum is for, I just want to -present- what I've done so others can use it.
Any suggestions on this issue?
I agree with a lot of the points raised here. I personally think that the best way to encourage a sense of community is to further encourage people to play other people's games and give feedback on them. From what I've seen in the year or so I've been here, there seems to be a kind of strained atmosphere where most people have their own game(s) that they want feedback on while not ever giving feedback to anyone else.
HBGames.org has been suffering from the same problem, and one of their new initiatives that I think is worth trying out is the Project Criticism Partnership. Basically, it's a monthly program that you sign up for and everyone is paired with a partner. It's then your job to play your partner's game and give them feedback and suggestions on how to improve it. If we implemented it here, I would extend the criteria to require that you leave a review on your partner's game.
What do you guys think? I'd be willing to coordinate it if there's interest.
HBGames.org has been suffering from the same problem, and one of their new initiatives that I think is worth trying out is the Project Criticism Partnership. Basically, it's a monthly program that you sign up for and everyone is paired with a partner. It's then your job to play your partner's game and give them feedback and suggestions on how to improve it. If we implemented it here, I would extend the criteria to require that you leave a review on your partner's game.
What do you guys think? I'd be willing to coordinate it if there's interest.
Yoshio
774
sounds like a fun idea to me! having someone talk to you so much about your game is bound to help anyone with thier motivation.
Darken
3952
I am part of the problem or something but I think "making fun of" an aspect of a game can show why it is silly. The whole ridicule gimmick is really there to make the writing process more fun and entertaining. I had some complaints previously about how I went about this. But I proved to put more critique than bad jokes in my past reviews, so I guess I can defend myself in that regard. But now I'm tired of writing reviews (aka lazy), maybe it's because every RM game seems to be the same in graphics/sound/battles causing me to be bitter about them when I load them up. Who knows, maybe I'll just write articles on how do improve aspects rather than repeating myself through the reviews and cracking up jokes that seem to hurt people's feelings or w/e.
Asshole cynical point: We've tried this before, a lot. Idk the Partnership Criticism is only going to work for a handful of people who A. have time to work on his game + play someone else's B. Don't already have beta testers hidden in the shadows C. Are good at delivering criticism or understand where the author is coming from (I DONT LIKE THIS PLOT CHANGE IT, I DONT LIKE RPGS AT ALL MAKE IT AN ACTION GAME etc).
And we kinda did this before where we all exchanged MSN/AIMs w/e but the effect isn't really visible as MSN/AIMs are all private and stuff.
Highlight of the topic so far.
I personally think that the best way to encourage a sense of community is to further encourage people to play other people's games and give feedback on them.
Asshole cynical point: We've tried this before, a lot. Idk the Partnership Criticism is only going to work for a handful of people who A. have time to work on his game + play someone else's B. Don't already have beta testers hidden in the shadows C. Are good at delivering criticism or understand where the author is coming from (I DONT LIKE THIS PLOT CHANGE IT, I DONT LIKE RPGS AT ALL MAKE IT AN ACTION GAME etc).
And we kinda did this before where we all exchanged MSN/AIMs w/e but the effect isn't really visible as MSN/AIMs are all private and stuff.
This is why Mister Big T can post screenshots of 10-year-old anime girls being sodomised by dragons and the next person to post will go UMMM THAT MAP LOOKS A BIT EMPTY :/ .
Highlight of the topic so far.
Drakonais
2787
I would suppose the best solution is for proactive people to get out there, play games, and leave comments and reviews. I'm still a big fan of a game swap idea with a review exchange at the end, though the last two times I've participated in that, I played and reviewed members' games and they vanished from the site or occupied themselves otherwise. I'm still down to do it again, as long as I'm reasonably sure it's done in good faith.
catmitts
4862
Actually the review idea thing is a good example of what I'm talking about: it's a fair enough point to make but on the other hand you cannot seriously talk about why so few people play games without looking at the games themselves! And, okay, the majority are:
- made in easy-to-use engines which make it difficult to change the actual gameplay in any real way
- using a fairly well-worn series of ripped and built-in graphics and even music tracks
- extremely similar to each other in terms of setting, characterisation and overall story
- loooooooong lol as rpgs in general are based on long-term character and story growth rather than instant thrills
These are not new points and I'm sure everyone is already being ROLLEYES at them getting brought up again but really there is no way they do not contribute to the problem. Stuff like community reviewing events and gameswaps are noble ideas but the fact that they're even necessary points to a larger problem! I don't think this has to do with game designers not being interested in other games (if anything just the opposite) because places like the AGS forums and TIGSource and GameJolt repeatedly show otherwise. And this is where the idea of standards come in: i am uh very hesitant to adopt some laissez-faire attitude in any way, shape or form but I don't think it's particularly groundbreaking to say that if you want people to play your games you should make games other people want to play. You could say this leads to pandering and I'd agree but this is where the concept of standards comes in again: of recognising what is and is not important, of valuing some spark of actual intelligence and originality over some trivial superficial garbage about map consistency or quid pro quo, of working out what is IMPORTANT.
I'm sorta rambling and do not have any concrete suggestions for improvement along the lines of events or something but I do think it's necessary to think about this shit aaaaaand i'm too lazy to continue aaa rip biggie rip pimp c
- made in easy-to-use engines which make it difficult to change the actual gameplay in any real way
- using a fairly well-worn series of ripped and built-in graphics and even music tracks
- extremely similar to each other in terms of setting, characterisation and overall story
- loooooooong lol as rpgs in general are based on long-term character and story growth rather than instant thrills
These are not new points and I'm sure everyone is already being ROLLEYES at them getting brought up again but really there is no way they do not contribute to the problem. Stuff like community reviewing events and gameswaps are noble ideas but the fact that they're even necessary points to a larger problem! I don't think this has to do with game designers not being interested in other games (if anything just the opposite) because places like the AGS forums and TIGSource and GameJolt repeatedly show otherwise. And this is where the idea of standards come in: i am uh very hesitant to adopt some laissez-faire attitude in any way, shape or form but I don't think it's particularly groundbreaking to say that if you want people to play your games you should make games other people want to play. You could say this leads to pandering and I'd agree but this is where the concept of standards comes in again: of recognising what is and is not important, of valuing some spark of actual intelligence and originality over some trivial superficial garbage about map consistency or quid pro quo, of working out what is IMPORTANT.
I'm sorta rambling and do not have any concrete suggestions for improvement along the lines of events or something but I do think it's necessary to think about this shit aaaaaand i'm too lazy to continue aaa rip biggie rip pimp c
I know where you're going catmitts, and I would definitely add "Make good and interesting games" on kentona's original list.
On the other hand, I think you carry some misconceptions about the current "trends" in rpgmaking, or gamemaking in general. They're not all the same, like you make them look.
On the other hand, I think you carry some misconceptions about the current "trends" in rpgmaking, or gamemaking in general. They're not all the same, like you make them look.
-- made in easy-to-use engines which make it difficult to change the actual gameplay in any real way
Unfortunately, this is a fundamental problem for me, because the entire reason I got into this niche of gamemaking in the first place is because it's easy to use. I adore it. I just do not have the time to devote myself to learning more complex engines. I just don't. Many people are hanging on to what little time they have to make what they can even with something as easy to use as RPG Maker/Gamemaker. I'm not a hardcore indie game maker. I just like making games in my free time and hoping other people enjoy them and look forward to it. Given Chronology for example, I think I'm accomplishing my goals towards that end.
Conversely, I enjoy a lot of RPG Maker (of any year) games, such as Balmung, Exit Fate, Forevers End, Visions and Voices, ABL, FF:Endless Nova, Paradise Blue, etc. All of those games stood out to me even considering the 'sameness' that many game makers steer dangerously close to. They stood out and excelled. While I'm not suggesting lowering standards, I'm not going to pretend to aspire to being a hardcore indie guy. I'm satisfied with my GENERAL place in things. That's not to say that things can't be shook up or improved, though.
post=126769
Actually the review idea thing is a good example of what I'm talking about: it's a fair enough point to make but on the other hand you cannot seriously talk about why so few people play games without looking at the games themselves! And, okay, the majority are:
- made in easy-to-use engines which make it difficult to change the actual gameplay in any real way
- using a fairly well-worn series of ripped and built-in graphics and even music tracks
- extremely similar to each other in terms of setting, characterisation and overall story
- loooooooong lol as rpgs in general are based on long-term character and story growth rather than instant thrills
These are not new points and I'm sure everyone is already being ROLLEYES at them getting brought up again but really there is no way they do not contribute to the problem. Stuff like community reviewing events and gameswaps are noble ideas but the fact that they're even necessary points to a larger problem! I don't think this has to do with game designers not being interested in other games (if anything just the opposite) because places like the AGS forums and TIGSource and GameJolt repeatedly show otherwise. And this is where the idea of standards come in: i am uh very hesitant to adopt some laissez-faire attitude in any way, shape or form but I don't think it's particularly groundbreaking to say that if you want people to play your games you should make games other people want to play. You could say this leads to pandering and I'd agree but this is where the concept of standards comes in again: of recognising what is and is not important, of valuing some spark of actual intelligence and originality over some trivial superficial garbage about map consistency or quid pro quo, of working out what is IMPORTANT.
I'm sorta rambling and do not have any concrete suggestions for improvement along the lines of events or something but I do think it's necessary to think about this shit aaaaaand i'm too lazy to continue aaa rip biggie rip pimp c
Although that's true, many of the unextraordinary games are by newbie developers working on either their first or second project. Without feedback, they won't know what they did wrong or what to improve in their next project. If only the well-designed games made by veteran developers are getting attention, then we run into a problem where the experienced developers are getting an abundance of feedback whereas the people just starting out, the people that need it most, are left in the dust. It creates an atmosphere where you feel you have to compete just in order to get attention. The community shouldn't be competitive. It should be cooperative and supportive.
post=126777
Although that's true, many of the unextraordinary games are by newbie developers working on either their first or second project. Without feedback, they won't know what they did wrong or what to improve in their next project. If only the well-designed games made by veteran developers are getting attention, then we run into a problem where the experienced developers are getting an abundance of feedback whereas the people just starting out, the people that need it most, are left in the dust. It creates an atmosphere where you feel you have to compete just in order to get attention. The community shouldn't be competitive. It should be cooperative and supportive.
I feel this is an important point. This is a developer community and not everyone coming here is going to be a veteran or a genius, but they are still deserving of help/critique. Maybe trying to run in both directions, being friendly to newbies while also being supportive of experienced makers, is hurting us, but I'm sure there's some way we can appeal to both crowds.
