TWO QUESTIONS

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Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Two Questions, which are really more "audience/marketing theory" than "Game Design" but this still seems like the best place for them. I hope this will be a good topic with a lot of meaningful discussion.

(0. Are people more likely to read topics with a vague name like "Two Questions"?)

1. Long versus Short

Here is one catch 22. If I make this topic specifically about me and my games, it will be seen as self-serving and limited. If I attempt to make this discussion about amateur game dev in general, people will complain that things I'm saying don't apply to them or that I am projecting, in other words "speak for yourself" syndrome. What to do, what to do.

Here is another catch 22. For amateur game developers, long-term projects and short-term projects have their own sets of pretty evenly balanced pitfalls. Pros and cons:

Long Term Projects
Pros:
*People always seem more interested in longer projects. Perhaps because longer projects can "snowball" hype and interest over a protracted development time.
*Ostensibly more development time = better game. Not always true, but we can take it as a premise, although in some cases, more development time = longer game, and in some cases, more development time = ???.
*For players who prefer an "epic" experience, the project can deliver that.

Cons:
*On the whole, a much smaller chance of seeing completion.
*Depending on how long the development time takes, the project faces the possibility of people losing interest. If the developer promotes the project as it is developed, replace the risk of losing interest with the risk of being seen as "overhyping". If the development time runs long enough and people still remember the project, the issue becomes people dismissing the project as vaporware.
*The project demands a large time commitment from players, making playing it a significant time investment.

Short-Term Projects
Pros:
*Requires only a small time commitment from players! As a result, should be able to draw in more players! There is also less of a chance that players will become stuck/frustrated, preventing them from completing the game.
*More likely to be completed!

Cons:
*Little or no time is spent promoting the project pre-release. As a direct result, very little pre-release hype is generated.
*People tend to treat short-term projects with surprising contempt/dismissal, even if they are completed. The game may be approached in a "Gave this a shot and was mindlessly entertained in that "I don't really care what's going on here" sort of way".

At least, that's how I see it. I made this topic, transparently enough, because the second con underneath "Short-Term Projects" is a new discovery for me, and I had always previously assumed that short-term projects would be unequivocably better received than their more ambitious counterparts.

Thoughts?

2. Is there a law of conservation of interest?

Basically, if the above was long/short this is one versus many. I don't have to ask if juggling multiple projects effects the chance of completing those projects; I know that as a fact.

But does having multiple projects (even if they are complete) hamstring the potential level of interest surrounding each project? Admittedly, only a handful of developers have enough projects that this would be an issue. Nonetheless, the theory is that...perhaps people have a limited amount of interest in any given developer, and so what might manifest as rabid fandom of one big project might instead turn into mild interest in five. Now of course, this could also be a question of a real or perceived "law of conservation of quality"...what do you think?
Uhm... I never thought of having a long project in terms of having a long advertisement period. And I think it's kinda useless. There's no use having a lot of fans and followers and interested people in your game BEFORE it's done. You should worry about that before.
There's nothing stopping you from releasing little bits of information every week even though your game is done. I guess in that time you can beta it to a small amount and still gain that 'Snowball effect' on other members who await the day when you actually release it.
arcan
Having a signature is too mainstream. I'm not part of your system!
1866
I prefer short projects as those are the only games I ever finish playing.

edit: Also the topic name was pretty uninteresting.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
post=128500
(0. Are people more likely to read topics with a vague name like "Two Questions"?)


Nope. It sounds like a "plz help how does i maek gams?" topic. :)
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
There's nothing stopping you from releasing little bits of information every week even though your game is done.I guess in that time you can beta it to a small amount and still gain that 'Snowball effect' on other members who await the day when you actually release it.

Beg to difference. This can lead to you being FUCKING LYNCHED. I have personally experienced this and as a result will never use this approach again. Anyway, it all depends how you choose to develop your game. You might simply be making progress on your game that doesn't lead to or waren't an interesting update.

Re: All comments on the OP title: I only wish the forum code allowed me to edit it.
post=128557
There's nothing stopping you from releasing little bits of information every week even though your game is done.

oh god
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
No I mean seriously to reiterate the OP (have not gathered anywhere near enough opinions):

Which are you more drawn to by default, longer games or short games?

Do you feel that you have the same level of interest in developers with multiple projects as developers with one big game or do you think that more games = more interest (i.e. there is no conservation of interest)?
post=128873
Which are you more drawn to by default, longer games or short games?


By default, short, because I'm lazy. If I am to play a long game, it has to be particularly appealing, I need good references (like a review). I'm not that picky about short games.

post=128873
Do you feel that you have the same level of interest in developers with multiple projects as developers with one big game or do you think that more games = more interest (i.e. there is no conservation of interest)?


Well, if I've played games from one guy and I liked them, I'm more likely to play the others, and vice-versa. But if I haven't played any of his games, the number of games he has is unimportant.

But I guess if his games are somewhat similar, I would look for the best one among them to play (first).
I have...

a. Completed a (ridiculously) long game over the course of 3 years, with excessive hype
b. Completed a short game over the course of 10 days, with little warning or hype
c. Juggled multiple projects and have completed 3 full games plus 4 community games and a minigame

I am most proud of my long game, and it generated the most feedback, noise and the most loyal following of all of my projects. I am always impressed to hear when someone says they've completed it because the thing is at least 10 hours long to finish (probably closer to 20! Or more!), especially since I am most likely to choose short games to play for myself (I tend to avoid lengthy games, or RPGs in general).

That game was a LOT of work, and like I said, it took 3 years to complete. And STILL I could easily revisit the project and fix up a lot, polish off some more and improve on the content but I finally said "Enough!" and left the project in its current form. I still care a lot about this game.

I like my shorter project, but I find that I am less concerned with it and its reception since it took so short to make. I am less emotionally invested in it.

As for multiple projects/maker-cred, I get good millage out of it. People (for some reason) tend to pay attention when I work on a new project or start some community game/event. I think it causes them to be less critical of my work (which isn't a good thing). Also, it upsets me on some deep level to know that because of my history people pay more attention to me and my work and that others -- who could likely have a much better game/project but have less history -- gets little exposure. On the flipside, when I go someplace new where I don't have any history, it's frustrating to see that I get little to no attention. Your "RM cred" counts for FAR too much in our little world and I wish I knew how to change that.
post=128882
Also, it upsets me on some deep level to know that because of my history people pay more attention to me and my work and that others -- who could likely have a much better game/project but have less history -- gets little exposure.


This is how it is anywhere, and how it has always been. You have earned the people's respect, you knew how to promote your game and who to promote it to, and it was a quality product, and therefore people look forward to your future work. You gotta work your way upwards.

On the flipside, I'd reckon there are people who get alot more exposure than yourself who don't deserve it at all. The fact is, popularity and publicity are much more important to gaining exposure than quality.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Also, it upsets me on some deep level to know that because of my history people pay more attention to me and my work and that others -- who could likely have a much better game/project but have less history -- gets little exposure


I shouldn't, since people often cite (or are they being ironic?) that I have a "large following" and/or "many fans" but I feel the exact INVERSE of this. Or is it the converse? I'm bad at maths even when only using it as an analogy.

Anyway, narcodis is very correct.

Kentona do you find your shorter project(s) are ignored in favor of Hero's Realm or that they benefit from its spillover fame?
at least you don't have a huge following of complete disgusting losers (chef)
The smaller projects and endevours I have done benefit from spillover fame.
I've gotten into a lot of the weirder game genres over the last several years. I'm a longtime rogueliker (including the mind-destroying Dwarf Fortress -- ask me about my Goblin Steamtorture Cavern!) and I've even given some attention to those "critique the mode" sorts of games like We The Giants and what we see from the Anna Anthropy crowd. My feeling is that certain types of games lend themselves better to certain lengths.

RPGs, it seems to me, have a greater length sort of hardwired into them. A great deal of the fun is in watching your characters change over the course of the adventure. This is generally done in two ways:

1) they undergo some sort of philosophical trial and come out different than when they went in
2) they accumulate power and loot from the many battles they've fought, generally paralleling #1

I don't generally see this happening over the course of shorter RPGs. So, for me, long.

Of course, that's a tricky thing, because long games need to be good in so many ways that short RPGs don't. You can't just skate by on half a cool concept, some custom sprites, and a lifted theme from Dragonforce. It's the difference between an excellent short story and an excellent novel.

Incidentally, if there's anyone here who'd have the time to answer a few personalized questions about game design, I'd appreciate the chance to pick a brain.
Nice to see ya posting, jimbo!

I have to admit, on this site, I have often looked at the creator's profile to see how many finished games they have made when I become interested in a project. It's just so you can get an idea of whether or not they are likely to complete the game.

For instance, if the creator has 8 projects and none of them are finished, I'm likely to assume the project I'm interested in won't get done.

This is not a fair assessment on my part, however, as I realize that perhaps the creator is new to the community and recently added all of his/her new projects. I myself have quite a few that I've added to the site and none of them have been completed, so I wouldn't want someone to look at my unfinished portfolio and assume I'll never finish anything. So yes, you do raise a good point with this thread. Perhaps it is something we should all keep in mind in the future.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
and a lifted theme from Dragonforce.


Did I do this already or did you just read my mind? : )

For instance, if the creator has 8 projects and none of them are finished, I'm likely to assume the project I'm interested in won't get done.


I have, I think, 12 projects and I think about 5 are finished. Kind of. Where does that fall?
The way I'd go about it if I had a long-term project would be to work on it by myself until I reach a stage where I can release a version of it. And after that basically "release often". If you don't have something tangible I don't see much reason in advertising. Of course once the game is finished one can go on a couple of weeks of heavy advertising (Captainregal, I'm sorry about that btw... I'll never promise anyone anything again...) before releasing the final product.

And once it's done you can hype it for a couple of weeks with designer notes and post-release-defending of a game that isn't received well. Or just complain about it not getting enough attention.

Thinking from a follower perspecitve though. Having the long project and releasing often is good. Having loads of short projects and releasing often is also good. Essentially releasing something for the "following" to play is generally the only way to keep a following interested. I guess once you have a decent backlog or something really, fucking awesome in the backlog you can be excused with not releasing immediately, instead working on something and "it's ready when it's ready". But some followers will drop out during any time of draught. Even if there's designer notes and screenshots and concept art.

No one wants concept art. Not really. Not until after the game. (It's always nice to see early concept art and compare them to what you saw in the game. Not see concept art and hoping it'll be awesome in the game in five years)
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Thanks for the input, Shinan.

Oh, I don't even see how concept art has a place in the community? At the very least, it ISN'T really concept art (i.e. a rough sketch for a graphics/level designer to work from) so much as "cool looking art to look at".

At this point I think...basically anything we do has to be "done when it's done". Release dates also just don't seem to mesh with this community.
I never intend to make my games very long. At first I have a relevantly simple idea, and it just builds and builds and....yeah. I do desperately try to avoid having "filler" dungeons though, so while some of my stuff may be too "long," I'd like to think that most of it is meaningful and plot-related.


As a player, I'm not really picky, though I do tend to prefer playing longer games. I almost always avoid demos, because few of them are ever finished.
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