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SETTINGS AND ENVIRONMENTS, AND PLACES.
Posts
Feldschlacht IV
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CloseI love visiting places in games! The Kingdom of Figaro in FFVI, Nortune in Xenogears, Zelmony in Exit Fate, Midgar in FFVII, the Scarlet Moon Empire in Suikoden, Koorong in Saga Frontier, Zeal in Chrono Trigger, and so on. Going from place to place and visiting various nations, empires, principalities, and towns is a big part of the worldbuilding experience.
I love going places in RPGs, even if you spend a lot of the game in one place. I like when an RPG, or any game, really, gives you the feel of being somewhere, with people, places, lore/history, and a specific feel of the setting instead of generic "ADVENTURELAND". Sometimes they get it wrong, though, and places in games are just places with people, buildings, and whatever, with no real 'feel' of being somewhere unique in the games world (because everywhere is unique).
I guess what I want to talk about is how are you going to approach the feeling of adventure and traveling in your game, IF it's applicable to the current project you're working on. How are you going to approach that feeling of 'being somewhere' in your game? And don't worry, talking about your own game is okay here! This is a topic to relax, check out what other people are doing, and bounce off ideas, and talk about that childlike wonder and excitement and shit that sucks you into games.
EDIT: Also I want to add that, with due respect to the current trend of topics dealing with the more arcane and philosophical aspect of game making, the community, and dissecting game concepts and whatnot, this isn't one of those. Don't think too hard within this topic, the entire aim is to provide a more laid back atmosphere, while still having interesting discussion.
I love going places in RPGs, even if you spend a lot of the game in one place. I like when an RPG, or any game, really, gives you the feel of being somewhere, with people, places, lore/history, and a specific feel of the setting instead of generic "ADVENTURELAND". Sometimes they get it wrong, though, and places in games are just places with people, buildings, and whatever, with no real 'feel' of being somewhere unique in the games world (because everywhere is unique).
I guess what I want to talk about is how are you going to approach the feeling of adventure and traveling in your game, IF it's applicable to the current project you're working on. How are you going to approach that feeling of 'being somewhere' in your game? And don't worry, talking about your own game is okay here! This is a topic to relax, check out what other people are doing, and bounce off ideas, and talk about that childlike wonder and excitement and shit that sucks you into games.
EDIT: Also I want to add that, with due respect to the current trend of topics dealing with the more arcane and philosophical aspect of game making, the community, and dissecting game concepts and whatnot, this isn't one of those. Don't think too hard within this topic, the entire aim is to provide a more laid back atmosphere, while still having interesting discussion.
I'm playing Paper Mario 2 at the moment so I'll make an observation about this game: I like how the first town (and dungeon) in the game is run-down and ghetto-y made up mostly of miserable colours. When Mario and co. finally leave and enter a field with green grass and blue skies and the usual Super Mario aesthetic, it's all the more satisfying because it's like an EXPLOSION of colour,
Fallout 3 did a similar thing (Although I guess that game is more EXPLOSION than colour) with the dark, claustrophobic vault versus the wide open wasteland. And maybe you could say that the contrast made the vault feel like a memorable location once you had left it.
Oh, music. I'm embarassed to say that I haven't made it past disc 1 of FF7, but that one location (The Red XII one, Wutai?) stood out to me because of the music. That particular piece whisked me off into a different land. In fact, the power of music should not be underestimated. At-Moss-Fear and all of that.
Fallout 3 did a similar thing (Although I guess that game is more EXPLOSION than colour) with the dark, claustrophobic vault versus the wide open wasteland. And maybe you could say that the contrast made the vault feel like a memorable location once you had left it.
Oh, music. I'm embarassed to say that I haven't made it past disc 1 of FF7, but that one location (The Red XII one, Wutai?) stood out to me because of the music. That particular piece whisked me off into a different land. In fact, the power of music should not be underestimated. At-Moss-Fear and all of that.
Rowan
131
Music and atmosphere are immensely appealing to me.
Some of my most favorite areas off the top of my head are:
Midgar/Junon/Gold Saucer/Cosmo Canyon - FF7
Fisherman's Island - FF8
Virtually anywhere - FFX
Planet Zerard - Rogue Galaxy
and ALOT more..
My favorite RM Examples:
First city in Rei-'s Ascendence
Anywhere in Muse and Kindred Saga
It's not just music/atmosphere to; interaction and aesthetics plays a key role also. I enjoy seeing NPCs in games going about their daily lives. People walking around in a random direction feels unnatural to me.
Cosmo Canyon
Some of my most favorite areas off the top of my head are:
Midgar/Junon/Gold Saucer/Cosmo Canyon - FF7
Fisherman's Island - FF8
Virtually anywhere - FFX
Planet Zerard - Rogue Galaxy
and ALOT more..
My favorite RM Examples:
First city in Rei-'s Ascendence
Anywhere in Muse and Kindred Saga
It's not just music/atmosphere to; interaction and aesthetics plays a key role also. I enjoy seeing NPCs in games going about their daily lives. People walking around in a random direction feels unnatural to me.
WeaselEliot
Oh, music. I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't made it past disc 1 of FF7, but that one location (The Red XII one, Wutai?)
Cosmo Canyon
A couple of my favourite locations in videogames were ones like Nibelheim (FF7) Fisherman's Horizon and the Ragnarok (FF8) Dergerro (the library from FF9) as well as the 'Village of Summoners' from FF9.
Oh and Gizamaluke's Grotto. And Burmecia. And Cleyra. And Lindblum. Ok I loved FF9's locations in general.
With my game you have to travel to a number of different locations searching for employees carrying Keycards.
I try to make sure I distinguish them even if I'm using the same tilesets.
For example the first city is divided into economic-related districts and is very straight and orderly, rather horizontal, even, while the second major city is more random in its placement of buildings and less focused on the division of the city. There's a lot more roads, as well.
I try to make the towns recognizable from each other so they have their own personality. It's difficult but rewarding.
Oh and Gizamaluke's Grotto. And Burmecia. And Cleyra. And Lindblum. Ok I loved FF9's locations in general.
With my game you have to travel to a number of different locations searching for employees carrying Keycards.
I try to make sure I distinguish them even if I'm using the same tilesets.
For example the first city is divided into economic-related districts and is very straight and orderly, rather horizontal, even, while the second major city is more random in its placement of buildings and less focused on the division of the city. There's a lot more roads, as well.
I try to make the towns recognizable from each other so they have their own personality. It's difficult but rewarding.
Well, there are of course the basic matter of... creating an ambiance. Give it character with music, graphics, NPC, etc. etc. Places should have character, not just a generic "adventureland", like you said.
What I'm trying to do with my game and I think it works great is not having too many places to go, and having a lot of things to do in the same place. This applies not only to cities, but to places within cities. I think have have like 3 or 4 cities in my game, but they're big, full of stuff to do. There are some places, like a school, which is also full of plot stuff, side-quests, etc.
I think people have the tendency to think that each step of the game = new mission = new place. I like thinking that the same guy who asked you to rescue his daughter is the one that gets ill and asks you to find a healing herb, and is the same guy who turns into a demon and fights you later, even if all of those are not relevant to the central plot at all. I believe that forcing the player to interact more times with the same place/NPC for different reasons is always good.. makes the game world feel more alive, closer to the player's heart.
Most games don't do this. I think, for example, Final Fantasy 6. There were a whole lot of cities, most of them decent-sized, but in every city there was basically one thing to do, all the NPC talk and events were about one thing... and after you were done with that, there was not much point in going back to places. There was never something like "Oh, Maranda is such a cool place, I miss going there, I'm gonna land my airship and make a quick stop".
What I'm trying to do with my game and I think it works great is not having too many places to go, and having a lot of things to do in the same place. This applies not only to cities, but to places within cities. I think have have like 3 or 4 cities in my game, but they're big, full of stuff to do. There are some places, like a school, which is also full of plot stuff, side-quests, etc.
I think people have the tendency to think that each step of the game = new mission = new place. I like thinking that the same guy who asked you to rescue his daughter is the one that gets ill and asks you to find a healing herb, and is the same guy who turns into a demon and fights you later, even if all of those are not relevant to the central plot at all. I believe that forcing the player to interact more times with the same place/NPC for different reasons is always good.. makes the game world feel more alive, closer to the player's heart.
Most games don't do this. I think, for example, Final Fantasy 6. There were a whole lot of cities, most of them decent-sized, but in every city there was basically one thing to do, all the NPC talk and events were about one thing... and after you were done with that, there was not much point in going back to places. There was never something like "Oh, Maranda is such a cool place, I miss going there, I'm gonna land my airship and make a quick stop".
Shinan
4314
I have to admit that it's been a while... Maybe. I need to think now.
I like to look at stuff at a smaller scale I think. FPSes are good at this. While you might not be moving to too many weird places, there are sometimes those streaks of detail. I run through a corridor and suddenly I find myself in someone living room. Some designer decided to put some strange detail there that really makes it all feel very right.
Some of the rooms in Bioshock comes to mind. And driving around in GTA. Just enjoying the city whlie listening to the radio, suddenly coming across something you've never seen before.
I like it when places have some sense of mystery that makes the player's imagination run wild. An abandoned house can tell such a story without there explicitly being a piece of paper with exposition on it. Half-Life 2 did stuff like this gloriously, but also the previously mentioned Bioshock has some of it (though there's also a lot of those audio logs). STALKER is another game where there's just so much to look at and not much explanation.
So much to look at and not much explanation. That's a good thing. Even though occasionally I think "Man, I really wanted to know the story behind this..." But the fact is that it's not the game's story. There might be hints as to what the story is but it's not what the game is about. It's just one of those intersection of two destinies.
It's just so cool.
In my games I did actually try to do something similar to that in the short game Blue. There's a certain sense that there's a larger world out there and in the game you only get the smallest of glimpses. Personally I like when those touches happen. That's why I love stuff like radio shows and newspapers in games.
EDIT:
I've also been playing Mass Effect recently. Though after the first thirty minutes I actually didn't find myself very excited about visiting other planets. Though perhaps some planet will totally blow my mind yet.
I like to look at stuff at a smaller scale I think. FPSes are good at this. While you might not be moving to too many weird places, there are sometimes those streaks of detail. I run through a corridor and suddenly I find myself in someone living room. Some designer decided to put some strange detail there that really makes it all feel very right.
Some of the rooms in Bioshock comes to mind. And driving around in GTA. Just enjoying the city whlie listening to the radio, suddenly coming across something you've never seen before.
I like it when places have some sense of mystery that makes the player's imagination run wild. An abandoned house can tell such a story without there explicitly being a piece of paper with exposition on it. Half-Life 2 did stuff like this gloriously, but also the previously mentioned Bioshock has some of it (though there's also a lot of those audio logs). STALKER is another game where there's just so much to look at and not much explanation.
So much to look at and not much explanation. That's a good thing. Even though occasionally I think "Man, I really wanted to know the story behind this..." But the fact is that it's not the game's story. There might be hints as to what the story is but it's not what the game is about. It's just one of those intersection of two destinies.
It's just so cool.
In my games I did actually try to do something similar to that in the short game Blue. There's a certain sense that there's a larger world out there and in the game you only get the smallest of glimpses. Personally I like when those touches happen. That's why I love stuff like radio shows and newspapers in games.
EDIT:
I've also been playing Mass Effect recently. Though after the first thirty minutes I actually didn't find myself very excited about visiting other planets. Though perhaps some planet will totally blow my mind yet.
For me Gran Pulse is a pretty nice setting right now. After running round the the tech-heavy land of Cocoon, to suddenly land on the natural landscape is a nice change of pace, and the fact it's so expansive helps aswell. It's seems overall much more welcoming than Cocoon, even with the wildlife that exists there.
Aswell as that, I'd say Morrowind has a pretty awesome setting too, with diverse forests of mushrooms, and towns built round trees, etc, etc. It's even better when mods are used to bring graphics more up to date and to access more features of the graphics engine.
As for in my own games, there is an RPG I've been designing that's would take place in a futuristic city, with distinct areas where each class of people are situated, with the Upper Class mostly living in the area surrounding 'The Spire', where the governmental areas are located, with Working Class and Lower Class spreading out. The most worse off people live across a river that's about 1/3 in from the east of the city, and they're seperated from the other classes by 'No Man's Land', an area of land where conflicts between gangs usually occur.
As for other RPGs, then I usually just make the setting as I go, along with everything else.
Aswell as that, I'd say Morrowind has a pretty awesome setting too, with diverse forests of mushrooms, and towns built round trees, etc, etc. It's even better when mods are used to bring graphics more up to date and to access more features of the graphics engine.
As for in my own games, there is an RPG I've been designing that's would take place in a futuristic city, with distinct areas where each class of people are situated, with the Upper Class mostly living in the area surrounding 'The Spire', where the governmental areas are located, with Working Class and Lower Class spreading out. The most worse off people live across a river that's about 1/3 in from the east of the city, and they're seperated from the other classes by 'No Man's Land', an area of land where conflicts between gangs usually occur.
As for other RPGs, then I usually just make the setting as I go, along with everything else.
post=135812
So much to look at and not much explanation. That's a good thing. Even though occasionally I think "Man, I really wanted to know the story behind this..." But the fact is that it's not the game's story. There might be hints as to what the story is but it's not what the game is about.
In my games I did actually try to do something similar to that in the short game Blue. There's a certain sense that there's a larger world out there and in the game you only get the smallest of glimpses.
I agree with this.
And the Assassination of Michael Gower did it well (though unintentionally).
Kaempfer
1932
FF6 had great locations!
They used the same tileset for Figaro, Jidoor and Nikeah (almost the same, anyway) and yet somehow they all have distinct feels to me: Figaro the booming town, Jidoor the high-falutin rich-folk city and Nikeah the bustling port.
I think what it comes down to is having the right areas to visit in a city. Jidoor controlled your opinion of it by really only having two areas to visit outside the shops- the auction house (full of rich folk) and the art gallery (full of GHOSTS OOooooOOo~~). Nikeah had almost no buildings you could enter with the exception of a seedy tavern at the docks, which meant the focal point- the market- stayed fresh in the mind. Figaro, on the other hand, had lots of buildings to enter and lots of ways around the city. Plus it had secret passages which is aweeesooommeeee
Don't even get me started on how well Narshe and Zozo were done (in addition to pretty much every location in FF6) because I could write a dissertation about that. Overall, it's probably my favourite game, location wise (and maybe overall).
So yeah, I think I enjoy areas that are consistent- not every city needs to have a slum, a mercantile district, a rich area, et cetera et cetera that are accessible to the player.
oh no I am getting too arcane... I am drunk with ultimate power
They used the same tileset for Figaro, Jidoor and Nikeah (almost the same, anyway) and yet somehow they all have distinct feels to me: Figaro the booming town, Jidoor the high-falutin rich-folk city and Nikeah the bustling port.
I think what it comes down to is having the right areas to visit in a city. Jidoor controlled your opinion of it by really only having two areas to visit outside the shops- the auction house (full of rich folk) and the art gallery (full of GHOSTS OOooooOOo~~). Nikeah had almost no buildings you could enter with the exception of a seedy tavern at the docks, which meant the focal point- the market- stayed fresh in the mind. Figaro, on the other hand, had lots of buildings to enter and lots of ways around the city. Plus it had secret passages which is aweeesooommeeee
Don't even get me started on how well Narshe and Zozo were done (in addition to pretty much every location in FF6) because I could write a dissertation about that. Overall, it's probably my favourite game, location wise (and maybe overall).
So yeah, I think I enjoy areas that are consistent- not every city needs to have a slum, a mercantile district, a rich area, et cetera et cetera that are accessible to the player.
oh no I am getting too arcane... I am drunk with ultimate power
Neophyte
155
The game that (IMO) did the settings thing incredibly well was Grandia 1. They really did a good job with the End of the World. It's basically a gigantic wall that closed off a whole section of the world and everyone was like NOBODY HAS GONE PAST THIS DO NOT TRY. I mean it was really cliche but there was so much build up around it that when you finally got over the wall, a whole new world was there. All of a sudden you were really on a god damn adventure. That game rules.
Also Super Mario RPG, simply because of its quirky diversity. Nimbus Land and Moleville were really cool towns. Earthbound is also very good at this. Both of these games did little twists on the typical rpg style of big city, cave, magma cavern, ice cavern, forest, etc, and they were really refreshing.
Play Mass Effect 2.
Also Super Mario RPG, simply because of its quirky diversity. Nimbus Land and Moleville were really cool towns. Earthbound is also very good at this. Both of these games did little twists on the typical rpg style of big city, cave, magma cavern, ice cavern, forest, etc, and they were really refreshing.
I've also been playing Mass Effect recently. Though after the first thirty minutes I actually didn't find myself very excited about visiting other planets. Though perhaps some planet will totally blow my mind yet.
Play Mass Effect 2.
post=136092
The game that (IMO) did the settings thing incredibly well was Grandia 1. They really did a good job with the End of the World. It's basically a gigantic wall that closed off a whole section of the world and everyone was like NOBODY HAS GONE PAST THIS DO NOT TRY. I mean it was really cliche but there was so much build up around it that when you finally got over the wall, a whole new world was there. All of a sudden you were really on a god damn adventure. That game rules.
It really does. I'm glad you brought this up because that game really brought home the sense of 'placement', as in, everywhere you went had its own feel and the world felt really alive. Surely the unique graphics that every location had helped towards this, but also like you said, the buildup and the atmosphere really helped as well. We should try to really break it down how to do this in our games!
Also Justin gets props for having the most character development in most RPGs ever. The Justin at the beginning and the end of the game are almost two different people.
Play Mass Effect 2.
Yeah this.
Kaempfer
1932
Rain pours down around you. Trash lines the street. Drunks and rogues stumble and dart into alleys and secluded doorways. Someone, somewhere, is playing a haunting but strangely upbeat tune. You don't take three steps before being assailed by the dregs of humanity, who are plentiful in this town.
You're in Zozo. The city is one big mystery; everything is familiar, but it's all tainted by a strange glow. Rooms that lead nowhere but to a broken clock; lines of charlatans waiting for god-know's-what. Somehow, the players have found themselves knee deep in the slum to end all slums; a forsaken town pushed into the mountains like a rat scrambling up a wall.
Anyone who isn't intrigued by Zozo is dumb. There, I said it! It's late and I don't want to get into it anymore, but it's just a great city and a perfect counterpoint to Jidoor, with which it is inexorably linked. There's a backstory there, but the player doesn't need to hear it to know that the contrast is very well done. Jidoor and Zozo are actually sort of linked gameplay wise, as they both have dungeons within the city limits, and both those dungeons break free from the mold that much of the rest of the game follows (more or less). It's just an interesting place full of interesting things I REALLY cared about. They could have put 100 secrets in Zozo and I would have found them all. At the same time, you only have to enter... what, one building the South-East corner to complete the entire city? I could go on and on but my brain hurts so someone else can feel free to add something and I will probably agree with you!
You're in Zozo. The city is one big mystery; everything is familiar, but it's all tainted by a strange glow. Rooms that lead nowhere but to a broken clock; lines of charlatans waiting for god-know's-what. Somehow, the players have found themselves knee deep in the slum to end all slums; a forsaken town pushed into the mountains like a rat scrambling up a wall.
Anyone who isn't intrigued by Zozo is dumb. There, I said it! It's late and I don't want to get into it anymore, but it's just a great city and a perfect counterpoint to Jidoor, with which it is inexorably linked. There's a backstory there, but the player doesn't need to hear it to know that the contrast is very well done. Jidoor and Zozo are actually sort of linked gameplay wise, as they both have dungeons within the city limits, and both those dungeons break free from the mold that much of the rest of the game follows (more or less). It's just an interesting place full of interesting things I REALLY cared about. They could have put 100 secrets in Zozo and I would have found them all. At the same time, you only have to enter... what, one building the South-East corner to complete the entire city? I could go on and on but my brain hurts so someone else can feel free to add something and I will probably agree with you!
Zozo is also a major turning point in the difficulty of the game. Everything before then was pretty easy, but suddenly you are facing enemies with full party damage, level 2 spells, and the ludicrously powerful thrown weapons.
FF6 was also really good about varying the environments of the world up, from the steam-powered Narshe, the classical ancient architecture of Doma to the dark, cyberpunk Imperial capital, and pretty much everything in between.
FF6 was also really good about varying the environments of the world up, from the steam-powered Narshe, the classical ancient architecture of Doma to the dark, cyberpunk Imperial capital, and pretty much everything in between.
Thanks for the dissertation, Kaempfer. I really enjoyed reading it (seriously!). Zozo really had a 'feel' to it that definitely made it one of a kind throughout the entire game.
Hey guys, you know the old axiom 'write what you know'? How do you guys think that could be applied to something like this? Recently I was thinking about applying what you PERSONALLY can relate to in your worldbuilding. Where you grew up, where you live now, summer vacations, etc etc.
For example, I spent a lot of my childhood in Pittsburgh/New York, both East Coast cities, and East Coast metropolises have a really 'cramped' feel to them, inside and out, especially in the dirtier/darker corners. There are a lot of cramped, dark labyrinthine alleyways and side streets, and within apartment complexes, and public buildings, a lot of winding hallways plagued by a lack of maintenance on the part of electricity and unchanged lightbulbs, and a little bit of seedy underbelly. Add that to the high populations and wear and tear these kind of places boast, and you have something straight out of a shady Shadowrun novel. Interesting video game analogues of these sort of places are Midgar from FFVII, Koorong from Saga Frontier, and interestingly enough, Zozo.
I've been thinking about that for a little bit and that's definitely how I want to style say, the Imperial Capital Sol in my game. Of course, I've been in a lot of other places too, so it'll be interesting to see how that influences other design deciousas as well.
Hey guys, you know the old axiom 'write what you know'? How do you guys think that could be applied to something like this? Recently I was thinking about applying what you PERSONALLY can relate to in your worldbuilding. Where you grew up, where you live now, summer vacations, etc etc.
For example, I spent a lot of my childhood in Pittsburgh/New York, both East Coast cities, and East Coast metropolises have a really 'cramped' feel to them, inside and out, especially in the dirtier/darker corners. There are a lot of cramped, dark labyrinthine alleyways and side streets, and within apartment complexes, and public buildings, a lot of winding hallways plagued by a lack of maintenance on the part of electricity and unchanged lightbulbs, and a little bit of seedy underbelly. Add that to the high populations and wear and tear these kind of places boast, and you have something straight out of a shady Shadowrun novel. Interesting video game analogues of these sort of places are Midgar from FFVII, Koorong from Saga Frontier, and interestingly enough, Zozo.
I've been thinking about that for a little bit and that's definitely how I want to style say, the Imperial Capital Sol in my game. Of course, I've been in a lot of other places too, so it'll be interesting to see how that influences other design deciousas as well.
Yeaster
6164
post=136154
Zozo is pretty cool, but I personally found the encounter rate extremely annoying.
This. The monsters weren't that hard to me, but it was irritating fighting the same people 20 times in one room.
Midgar > every RPG location ever, followed closely by Sumaru City <3
Another one of my favorite locations is the flesh eating cat people town in the first Shadow Hearts. That whole scenario was brilliant. I've always thought that SH1's story and atmosphere combined with SH: Covenant's battle system would've made a near-perfect RPG for me.
I agree with what was mentioned about Grandia. Everything about that game was awesome. Even the voice acting, while hilariously bad in some cases, had it's charms.
Kaempfer
1932
@MOG:
I always try to write what I don't know. I grew up in Toronto, and although I'm not in the downtown core (I work there now) the city is very similar to New York on a smaller scale (bigger than Pittsburgh, though!). I find, though, more rural areas interest me. Maybe it's because I'm suffering from a bit of future shock, but I've always been obsessed with -punk genres, especially Steampunk and Apocalypunk (which is a word I just made up now but you understand what I mean), mostly because they have a very 'hands on' feel as opposed to this world of computers where there isn't all that much you can build from pieces you have lying around.
I'm always more interested in rolling hills than conurbations. I know enough about them that, I hope, my work doesn't suffer, but they've always captured my imagination.
I always try to write what I don't know. I grew up in Toronto, and although I'm not in the downtown core (I work there now) the city is very similar to New York on a smaller scale (bigger than Pittsburgh, though!). I find, though, more rural areas interest me. Maybe it's because I'm suffering from a bit of future shock, but I've always been obsessed with -punk genres, especially Steampunk and Apocalypunk (which is a word I just made up now but you understand what I mean), mostly because they have a very 'hands on' feel as opposed to this world of computers where there isn't all that much you can build from pieces you have lying around.
I'm always more interested in rolling hills than conurbations. I know enough about them that, I hope, my work doesn't suffer, but they've always captured my imagination.
