OUT OF CONTENT - TIME TO RESTART, RIGHT?

post=138616
The argument is still valid, and Sol managed to sum it up quite nicely at that.

"Hey, uh, you're wrong because this entry in the series(my bad, durp) the example you gave didn't do quite that."

Okay, to contribute more than a smug "heh check your facts"...

I prefer my reward for beating the ultimate challenge to be some kind of cool non-battle feature, like a piece of sideplot or a secret room or an alternate noncanon ending, etc. A gimmicky (to the point that pretty much breaks the rules of the system) piece of equipment/skill will do if the game has a NG+ that wipes your levels.

I'm having a postgame so I have an excuse to throw even tougher shit at the player that would normally become a giant fuckoff roadblock in the main game.

post=138626
Can't believe I forgot the obvious one used by a few games such as Star Ocean 2 and The Last Remnant.

Once you do the optional content, the final boss's "limiter" is turned off and the final boss fight itself becomes the big bad ultimate challenge, sometimes with a slightly altered ending.

Helllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Visions & Voices

(although Karsu and I didn't even know that those two games did that)

Well, V&V does it like this.

~~~ VISIONS & VOICES CHALLENGE RANKING ~~~


Everything is optional except the intro fight, the Minor Galactivore and the final boss's weakened version (or omnipotent version, if you're stupid). However, completing the main quest in a timely manner will give you time to explore the portal that takes you to, eventually, the Wicodian. Having it in your inventory gives you a prompt prior to the final boss that asks "would you like to get the shit kicked out of you y/n?" Thing is, the entire game is side content. I don't really know where to say the "post-game" begins, but if I had to choose SOMETHING it would be the portal that only opens if you complete the main quest.

I guess that makes Marlowe a post-game optional character? Huh.

...this incredibly confusing post/brainwave brought to you by: the MOG hunter

You make... adventure games, Azn. Or something like that. Think about games like the Tales of series, where gameplay is key. People want to play more, and so there's usually tons of extra bonus content for people to master. The final boss is there for people who just want the story; the post-game is there for people who want to play around with a fun(?) game.

Why does every topic turn into an argument?

post=138632
You make... adventure games, Azn. Or something like that. Think about games like the Tales of series, where gameplay is key. People want to play more, and so there's usually tons of extra bonus content for people to master. The final boss is there for people who just want the story; the post-game is there for people who want to play around with a fun(?) game.

I wasn't talking about adventure games and if you actually read my post nothing I said alluded to adventure games. Are you saying RPGs don't have plots? RPGs are just as much about plots and even more so about presentation in some ways. EVEN so, this discussion was never RPG-specific and to say it was is close-minded. Game-design concepts can be spread like butter across the whole slice of game design. (lol simile)

Why wouldn't you stick post-game sidequests within your main game? Such "side" content can fit in the main game or post, but main plot events that tie up the game only fit into the main game. Leaving content after the last of the major plot events is sloppy, awkward, and lacks closure.

Also, I do not only make adventure games and this has never been the case, although last year, yes, I did mainly focus on an adventure game.

post=138633

post=138631
This is a pretty terrible argument. Since when do put in exactly what players want? If players wanted me to change the name of my hero or add twelve extra dungeons, I wouldn't do it. You're the creator of your own work and I doubt anyone would specifically not play your game because you lack post-game content.

That's pretty strawman, and taken far out of proportion, and only tangentially related to the topic, which is "If you aren't going to waste all those rewards you've given the player over the course of the game, what post game content should you have?"

It's not related to the topic--it wasn't intended to be. It's the same concept of player-pleasing/fanservice type of game development that you were using as your argument.

If you're going to ask where to use those rewards use them against the final boss, or the fights in the final dungeons before the last boss? And also: the game has to end sometime (unless it's an MMORPG or an open-world game like Pokémon)
If you decide the last boss, or like two battles before the last, drops the ultimate sword or whatever that is your own design flaw. You don't need to continuously stack on content for the player to use their items or whatever after the main game when you can just put it in the main game.

An example of "extra-content" that is part of the main game is... Cave Story (although not an RPG.) There is the main "quest" -- defeating the doctor. Then, there is what could be considered in a sense, "post-game" content: the Sacred Grounds. While it seems to be a "post-game" optional sidequest it is really the final major plot point. It brings the background of the plot to the game and it gives backstory to several characters as well as giving the "true" ending.

What calunio said was completely relevant and a pretty strong argument. The beginning and end plot points are there to tie up your game. They're like bookends on a bookshelf. Without them the books will fall over.

post=138638

post=138636
Why does every topic turn into an argument?

maybe because YOUR FACE

: (

wtf we have working hide tags now?