CAN GAMES BE ART?

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(The artistic expression of the title is necessary btw)

This has been discussed in many many many video game blogs and forums, and it was all mainly because of roger ebert and his controversial article: Video games can never be art. Of course this topic is a little late on the news, but hey better late than never right?

It's very hard to simplify and nail down as many questions arise like: What is art? Why do games have to be art? etc. But basically, the video games industry is becoming really hard to ignore nowadays, especially with the indie movement allowing for experimentation. This leads to people trying to give a deeper meaning to games. Personally I find it hard to see video games as a completely separate medium as it is essential a combination of them with added interactivity. Movies and books especially have been around forever, you don't see your grandmother arguing how SMB3 is a landmark of platforming mechanics at the dinner table or high school teachers giving you a project to analyze MGS2's ending and what hideo kojima "intended it to be that way why or why not?" Not to say that's what makes a medium art, but I'm just pointing out that video games aren't on that universal level yet. Everyone has read a book in their life, everyone has gone to a theatre, everyone has been subjected to some from of classic art (paintings, jewelry, statues, etc.) but a lot of people have never even played a video game.

Anyway, Roger Ebert made a follow up article on how he admits he was being unfair (because he didn't actually play video games all that much). He then says that one day games can be principle art (whatever that means) and slightly changes his stance. He does not intend to play video games however. Anyway I am just rambling on to give you guys ideas of what this ongoing massive internet debate is about. It's worth discussing here because to some of us, game making is a big hobby. I think the best way to provoke discussion is to ask these questions and hopefully, shit will fly.

Your view on what "art" is?

How do you think video games can express art? (Mechanically, through immersion, having unique flashy cell shaded graphics, story telling etc.)

Do you think games are art now? What are some games that you think are art?

What are good/solid games that are nowhere near your idea of art? Or what are some games that would generally be seen as art, but you disagree with?

Do you think RM games can ever be art? (No laughing)

Art art art art art? FUCKING ART
Well, we do have what we call Art Games that are generally lacking in gameplay or little gameplay but carries a message instead. I remember playing one but I can't remember about it. Found it in tigsource. Mikeinel's game is just about passing balls to a basket and you can eat one to restore hp, but the problem is, you can only eat a specific number or else you'll die (some sort of symbolism was going on.)

I'm not sure, what else to say, I don't really want to answer those questions so I'll leave it at that.
KingArthur
( ̄▽ ̄)ノ De-facto operator of the unofficial RMN IRC channel.
1217
Your view on what "art" is?
Something that everyone can understand without being told what it is and garners a feeling of respect or awe, a sense of appreciation. Art doesn't need to be in any way amazing, nor does it need to be strange or complex. All art needs to do is make the viewer take a bit of their time and make them feel satisfied in a way that everyone can understand and appreciate.

Of course, "everyone" is an ideal way of thinking, so I guess "almost everyone" is a more realistic way of looking at it.

How do you think video games can express art?
I personally believe the crux of this lies in immersion, depth, detail, and where applicable some good storytelling.

Traditional games like chess and shogi have already had that kind of appreciation, I don't see why good video games can't.

Do you think games are art now? What are some games that you think are art?
This honestly varies wildly depending on a person's definition of "art". For me, anything that makes me take a second to reflect on the game is a piece of art for me. That can include loving the characters in an RPG, being astounded by the musical track, or brainstorming a new strategy in a good strategy game. If I like it so much that I'm taking my time with the game there's obviously something that makes me tick (a sense of appreciation?) and I take that to be what a piece of art should do. So yes, I believe games can be considered art.

As for what games I'd consider works of art, some that come to mind are: Fire Emblem 6 and 7, Age of Empires II, Super Robot Wars, and Tears to Tiara.

What are good/solid games that are nowhere near your idea of art? Or what are some games that would generally be seen as art, but you disagree with?
Given that I make a pretty wide distinction between stuff I like and stuff I loathe while throwing general opinion out the window, I find this question rather hard to answer.

Do you think RM games can ever be art?
Why not? The sky's the limit.

Art art art art art? FUCKING ART
The term "art" has lost its meaning these days, god damnit.
Your view on what "art" is?
I think art is a form of expression that is appealing to the viewer in a way. I don't think art should be defined in terms of quality. There is bad art, and there is good art (despite how subjective bad and good are), but "good art" is not a redundant expression. It doesn't have to be good to be art. A little kid's drawing is as much art as a painting from Picasso. I would say the term "art" would require some degree of creativity, authenticity. Copies would not be art by definition. It would also require the ability to provoke some sort of reaction on the viewer. But yes, all those things are very subjective. I'm not stupid enough to try and give a good definition of art.

How do you think video games can express art? (Mechanically, through immersion, having unique flashy cell shaded graphics, story telling etc.)
For starters, all traditional forms of art (images, music, writing) are contained within a game. I think this should be enough to qualify videogames as art. I don't understand why someone would call a movie "art", but not a game such as... Final Fantasy XIII. It's very movie-ish. It's also very beautiful, well-written. It's definitely art.
But I don't think it ends there. There are two more things that make videogames even art-ier.
1: Videogames merge those things together. Well, that's not exclusive to videogames, because movies do that too. There's something awesome about, not only having a great scenery and a great song, having those two pieces together... and for a purpose.
2: Interactivity. The best forms of art make you feel like you are interacting with it. The best songs are the ones that pull you inside it, the immersive ones, the ones that take you somewhere else. Same with movies. Awesome paintings are the ones that make you feel like you're right there on that escape. Games are interactive by nature. It's almost impossible to play a game and not be part of it.

Do you think games are art now? What are some games that you think are art?
Gonna skip this one. My other answers will adress this.

What are good/solid games that are nowhere near your idea of art? Or what are some games that would generally be seen as art, but you disagree with?
Honestly... I think it's very risky to call anything NOT-ART. But I can say that some games feel less artistic. Like... Minesweepers. Or Freecell. Or Pacman. No, not Pacman. On pacman, you're a round guy running from ghosts. They could be crocodiles, but they are ghosts. There's a reason they're ghosts, and this should probably be enough to add at least a minor degree of artisticity to Pacman.

Do you think RM games can ever be art? (No laughing)
In theory, RM games are more art than commercial games. IMO, the notion that dozens of people work on isolate parts of a project makes it less art. At least, it is less of a form of expression. Anyways, when a single person takes care of music/sounds/graphics/writing/gameplay of a game, that piece of game becomes a strong form of expression from that person unless he's only using rips and cliches. That's actually the reason why lately I've enjoyed more games from RM than commercial games. It's the difference between watching a commercial series and a homemade video from a friend. The homemade video may be "worse" in a way, but it's nice because it tells you something about your friend, and knowing your friend makes the experience of watching the video richer. That's how I feel about RM games.

Art art art art art? FUCKING ART
All the way.
I'm not sure if this issue is ever necessarily going to have a unanimous contention, simply because the very definitions of 'Art' and 'Game' are generally open to interpretation. That said, my own view of the difference comes mostly from what I think is a key component of art: artist intentionality. Basically, I believe art should not only constitute some sort of effort from the artist to appeal (as Ebert mentioned) to the senses or emotions, but I also believe this must be largely deliberate. (Essentially, an animal randomly splattering paint around or whatever is not art.)

I think Ebert's point is mostly misunderstood by a lot of the users who posted long-winded comments responding to his blog. I think he's touching upon the principle of video games (and all games, I suppose)... he isn't particularly concerned with specific examples, but more-so the key components of what make up a game. As long as there is interactivity in some fashion--that the 'player' can manipulate elements in some fashion, however insignificant, it ceases to truly be art in its fullest sense. He is contesting that games are played, whereas art is experienced.

I think what really trips people up is the circumstance of art existing within a game, rather than the game itself being art. Many modern video games maintain wonderful orchestral scores, brilliant artistry and design, competent voice-acting, and emotionally evocative story-lines. All of these elements are artful and expressive in their own right, and therefore create the illusion of the games themselves being art. I personally hold all of these 'aesthetic ingredients' in in very high regard--even beyond the underlying structure of the game's design, in some cases-- but I still maintain that as long as interactivity is a component in some small way, the game in question ceases to be art.

Honestly, I think instead of endless bickering over the definitions, it's a more engaging and constructive effort to expand our contentions on what can even be considered a game, and how exactly these distinctions can be blurred. I think even in our own community many developers have realized this need for ambience, atmosphere and personal immersion--leading to ultimately a more stimulating (and highly enjoyable) game experience.

Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
oo boy, this debate.

I'm pretty firmly in the "Yes, and they already are, now shut up about it" category.

Ebert (although I agree with many other things he's said throughout history) had no idea what he's talking about, and doesn't care to learn. (His follow up post is at least less offensive.)

At some point when I am less busy I'll try to give detailed answers to the questions in the OP.
post=147420
Your view on what "art" is?

I just think that everything is art. (more so if the creator intended it to be art) I guess art generally has to be man-made though. (so a forest might not be art. Unless it's a PLANTED forest! Or perhaps if it's a forest that had its beginning planted and then left to grow on its own as a statement of wilderness or some shit like that.)

Defining art is sort of like defining RPGs. You can have the hard-core definition where most things called RPGs aren't included or you can have the more open definition where nearly every single game out there has RPG elements.

Same with art.
I see video games as a medium for creating art. The player tells a tale by playing through the game. The characters encounter throughout the quest, the battles fought, the rest at the inn in the mountain village, and the eventual conquering of evil of the game - the player's experience tells a beautiful tale that is certainly art.
I'm an avid go player, and though go is by no means a video game, it is still a game. Two players take turns trying to defeat the other; the only difference is that video games are played with controllers and the results show up on screen, while with go, ppl play on a board and use their hands to place the stones(though you can play go online with a mouse and with the results shown on screen... you see the similarities and how trivial the differences are between games and video games.)
I don't know how many of you play go, or even know what it is, but end result of a game is very beautiful, and is certainly art. The territories eventually marked tells the struggles that happened on the board, the stones that were captured, the soldiers that were abandoned, the local battles that were fought, and how they affected the overall war...
Though video games might not be art, per se, however you want to define it, I believe the players make it into an artform.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
It doesn't happen often but I can think of a few games that some could consider art (I am actually not sure if I am one of them.). I don't think it is something you can really intentionally set out to create, it kind of has to happen on its own, I think. If that makes any sense.
Art is a pretty subjective matter, so I'll just say this:

Just like what Shinan said, art can be everything, but whether art is art depends on how the people perceive it. Heck, even a dot can be a piece of art (modernism art, anyone?). Adding a moustache to a Mona Lisa portrait and claiming it as an art (Dada, anyone?). Controversial as they may be, they are still art (to some and not to some).

Hence, coming back to video games as an art, of course video games can be an art. It's just a matter of whether someone is actually intending to showcase them as a form of art and whether the public perceive them as a form of art.
I see some games created to be art, and I'm okay with it, because they were well done still. Also, I absolutely agree with the statement that games can be art because there are no definitive, absolute definitions of what is art.
I think gamers look way too much into this and it is absolutely fascinating how much we take some random dudes opinion to heart.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS ART? I mean what is this. What are you trying to accomplish by answering these questions??
It doesn't matter. If I enjoy it, I find it worthwhile, whether it be ~critically acclaimed art~ or no.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
Interestingly, I think the way video games are evolving lately are in fact neutering their ability to be art. Most games this generation aren't about creating interesting new experiences or evoking emotions. Most of the new consoles are, in fact, hampering their engines in order to make room for ever prettier and prettier graphics. video games are an interactive medium and it is through that way they are unique, and one would achieve artistry probably by breaking a mold, but video games are gravitating towards sameness. Generic FPS games starring burly space marines fighting aliens are what sells, so that's what get made.

Really, games are not likely to be truly artistic because those aren't the kind of games that people who play games want. Some creators might set out with a genuine artistic vision for a game, but they're unlikely to ever be recognized.
post=147540
Really, games are not likely to be truly artistic because those aren't the kind of games that people who play games want. Some creators might set out with a genuine artistic vision for a game, but they're unlikely to ever be recognized.
This is every medium ever.

*watches summer blockbusters*
post=147512
It doesn't matter. If I enjoy it, I find it worthwhile, whether it be ~critically acclaimed art~ or no.
TFT
WHOA wow wow. two tails? that is a sexy idea...
445
art is subjective, so yeah.
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