DOING IT! - WEEK ELEVEN - EQUIPABLES

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DOING IT!

Week the eleventh.

DOING IT! is a community event ran each week where a prompt is given and those who wish to fulfill it post their work here. It is entirely optional, you may join at any time - even after a week has finished. Feel free to post as many pieces as you like. Feedback is encouraged.

DETAILED EXPLANATION/QUESTIONS/SUGGESTIONS HERE

RULES
- Post your work in the thread, preferably with some small explanation about it. Whether that be about any troubles you had fulfilling the prompt, how you went about it or how you think it turned out is up to you.
- Feedback is highly encouraged, but optional. No flaming please. Constructional critique is preferred. If you see a piece without feedback, consider leaving even a line about it. Keep feedback polite.
- Keep posts on/in topic. Try not to get too off-track, please.
- "Borrowing". As these threads may include both original graphical and musical creations please ask the creators instead of just adding them to your 'collections'. If authors don't mind adding full works, go ahead, but partial works are also encouraged. If someone states in their post that they do not want their work used, please try to refrain yourself from grabbing with your grubby hands. It makes you look like a fool and a thief when others' point it out. People have been given bad reputations and ostracized from communities for doing this.
- You may add to this topic at any time. A link to this and the other weekly topics to come will be added to the main topic each week. Feel free to add new work to any of them at any time.

If you have any questions, suggestions or ideas for prompts please see the
original thread.


ENJOY YOURSELVES!

PROMPT: ARMED TO THE EYEBALLS
A staple of most battle-oriented games are the weapons and armour that you equip your character/s with. So this week lets talk about them. Numbers, effects, skills, looks - anything to do with weapons, armour and equipables. This can include sketches, descriptions, numbers, skills, systems and/or anything else that catches your fancy when it comes to equipment.

BONUS PROMPT: Take five equipables and post up the in-game description that you've given them. Let's see if anyone can guess what they are just by reading said description. ^.^

Go forth and create!

Previous Topics

WEEK ELEVEN: ARMED TO THE EYEBALLS
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
Strong: Phys, Reduce: Heal. ST+2, TC-1
Lv15: Sonic Fangs, Lv21: Venom Fang, Lv27: Regen

Null: Water, Strong: Fire, Weak: Elec. TC+5, ST-3
Lv60: Aquiyte, Lv64: Drain Water, Lv69: Atlantis

Null: Earth, Weak: Fire. EN+3, AG-2
Lv30: Terrase, Lv36: Earthshaker, Lv41: Earth Conduct

Null: Elec, Weak: Earth. AG+4, TC-2
Lv45: Razaise, Lv47: Elec Vortex, Lv51: Raspeago

AG+3, EN-2
Lv30:Reattarto, Lv34:Ramagarto, Lv37:Nerve Shock, Lv 41:Status Lock, Lv45:Slumber Wave
In RealmS, Jidor (your second party member) learns his skills through what sword he has equipped. It's a bit different to the usual 'learn via equipment' way, though, in that he can learn three skills from each sword, but he can only take one of those skills with him when he equips a new sword - and only if he has mastered the sword. So, say he's just learnt all the skills from his initial equip - Short Sword. That means he can choose either 'Focus Slash', 'Troll Slash' or 'Multi Slash' to keep as a main skill. Of course, he can use all three until he equips a new sword, but only the chosen one will stay in his skill list afterwards. And only one from each sword can be chosen. (So you have to choose carefully what skills to keep - though there will be ways to change the skills.)


Bonus:
"Darkness is forged by love and hate." - Proverb
A stick taken from Tree. Heals the user but makes enemies angry.
A hat that has a point. Not unlike this description.
Made to blend into the forest background.
Ask a stupid question... Lowers enemy STR, DEF, MAG, AGI
I love how the title format keeps changing. =P

I love equipment. Equipment can make(but not usually break) a game for me. I love getting new, stronger gear, or even better, gear that side-steps. (Eg a sword with 10 attack and a sword with 7 attack that inflicts poison. Which do you choose?) Gear helping out with a certain area(eg a poison immune helmet in a swamp area) is cool too. I just love lots and lots of gear.

Accessories are really underloved in RPGs. I think their cool, because there are no real conventions with them. I mean you want a shield for defence and a weapon to increase attack, but an accessory can do either of these, or grant immunities, or grant a special attack, or increase max HP, or grant regen, or increase money gained at the end of battle or do a million other things.

In the game I'm working on, over the last few days(quite conveniently) I've been thinking out armour distribution. I think having you average gear for sale as well as a second level of gear available in each "tier" is cool. So you'd buy your average up grades, and then be able to say, steal a better knife for the thief, buy a better sword for the warrior at an inflated price, find a better staff in chests for the mage and get a better mace for the priest by doing their special thing. Then the second level of armour would be available some other way.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
Having always hated items with descriptions that tell me absolutely nothing, all the equippables (and items in general) in my games always list their effects on stats and any other bonuses they might have. For example...

Bow, Attack +15, Poison

This weapon is of the bow variety, boosts your attack, and has a chance at inflicting enemies with Poison. And I probably didn't have to tell you any of that because it's SO OBVIOUS. Now, what may not be so obvious about it is the chance of it causing poison in a foe. But being that it's a weapon, the poison is just an added bonus. The attack boost already makes it better than whatever you were using previously, and the weapon's special effect is just extra (for the record, though, the effect rate is 10%).

Now, some of my descriptions aren't quite so clear...

Sword, Attack +30, Razor

...but I've detailed every one of these in the readme I include with the game. This one in particular means the weapon has a higher critical hit rate. Some of these are still more obvious than others, as a Dual weapon clearly strikes twice when you attack with it, and a Hits All weapon strikes everything at once.

My old games may be riddled with bizarre design choices, but item descriptions have never been a problem, I can tell you that!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If working with XP or VX, you can simply show all of this info as comparisons to the player's current equipment, the same way it compares attack and defense power to the player's current equipment by default. Granted, it takes up a little more space in the shop screen, but you didn't need the font to be that big anyway.

With that in mind, why would you ever list the weapon's main stat in its description? You can see them when buying or equipping the item, even in the default uncustomized screens. Even in RM2K3 you can at least see a comparison, though it's only an up or down arrow instead of numbers.

There's something to be said for players having to figure things out, too. For a strategic game like an RPG, figuring it out is the entirety of the challenge. So if you tell the player absolutely everything, then your game has no challenge and it's basically impossible to lose. Just don't take the information-hiding too far, or you'll end up with Nethack. There's a balance somewhere in the middle.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
I should think that, if your game derives its challenge entirely from what information it hides from the player, then it has failed on some fundamental level. Revealing the game mechanics to the player shouldn't break the game. If anything, it should enable them to form better strategies. And besides, info like how much a stat goes up can also be derived by checking the difference when it's equipped vs. when it's not. Showing that info in the item description just spares the player the trouble.

A truly well-designed game should challenge a player's knowledge of how to play it, not their lack of knowing. And yes, 'figuring it out' can be part of the challenge, but it's one thing when the player has to figure it out and another when they're punished for not knowing something. Especially if that something is too inobvious.
post=149209
There's something to be said for players having to figure things out, too. For a strategic game like an RPG, figuring it out is the entirety of the challenge. So if you tell the player absolutely everything, then your game has no challenge and it's basically impossible to lose.


Absolute disagreement.

Withholding information from the player is not challenge, it is a cheapshot. It's like blindly firing elements at a SMT boss because your Scan ability is obstructed for no good reason; you guess wrong, get it reflected in your face and die. Or having a piece of armor secretly make your character weak to fire - worse yet the player may never figure this one out and be left scratching their head wondering why the boss overkills them. Once you gain the information, whether through trial and error or a FAQ, the blind situation loses all meaningful value. Not to mention it has zero replay value to begin with.

The player should absolutely be allowed to know that Archer's Invisible Shot ability is Wind elemental, Silk Robe increases the Wind damage done by the unit wearing it and Equip Robe allows any class to wear robes. What they don't need to be told is that they can set Equip Robe on an Archer and use Silk Robe to power up Invisible Shot - this is the right kind of "figuring it out", using the CORRECT information given to you to make logical conclusions. (Simple example, but still.) Making a completed puzzle from the pieces is very gratifying. Less so if the pieces are half colored in ink splotches withholding the information of what the pieces of the picture look like.

In case you haven't figured it out yet I subscribe to the stats over flavor school of equipment description
What's the difference between withholding information and hidden mechanics (and every single game ever to exist has hidden mechanics, ESPECIALLY rpgs)?
Nothing really. I abhor notable hidden mechanics too and would like games to be as transparent as possible.
Simple: the goal of any game is to make meaningful choices that have consequence. it is a repeating cycle of learning and then applying what you learn in a consistent environment.

Withholding key information means that the user cannot make informed decisions.
I probably wouldn't play very many video games if all of their hidden mechanics were laid out on the table. The hidden mechanics of games like Saga Frontier, or Final Fantasy Tactics, or even Street Fighter 3rd Strike are hidden for a reason; having them exposed would make the instruction manuals 300+ pages, tutorials several days long, and pretty much would make everything a pain in the ass.

You don't need to know HOW everything works. You just need to know the necessary information and how to put it together, and anything from there is just a reward for investigation. I mean do you need to know exactly how the digestive system works to eat and enjoy food or how the arousal system exactly works to kiss a girl?
Let's not even get started on comparing videogames to life, where are my save points

All I can say is I enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics gameplay so much more now that the relevant formulae from Gamefaqs guides stick to my memory and I can make informed decisions based off them rather than being "augh why does my axe damage suck it has a lot of attack power stat *dies to generic bandits*"
No but you do need to know things like "This item is an apple, recovers 15 HP. This item is a thumbtack, can hold up to 375 grams on a corkboard"

EDIT: to make more sense
post=149259
Let's not even get started on comparing videogames to life, where are my save points


Hee hee. It's my gimick.

All I can say is I enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics gameplay so much more now that the relevant formulae from Gamefaqs guides stick to my memory and I can make informed decisions based off them rather than being "augh why does my axe damage suck it has a lot of attack power stat *dies to generic bandits*"


Of course, but part of the complexity of games is such that it ISN'T all laid out on the table. I mean you can argue that the Axe thing is a fair point, but a bunch of info on how a lot of minor things come together into big things is not always necessary. I mean does the player HAVE to know that Akuma's DEF drops to 0 during an infinitesimal segment of time during one of his Super Moves or does a player HAVE to know the Skill learn rates of every character in Saga Frontier broken down into integers or does the player HAVE to know that FFVII has 4 very obscure hidden elements for like 10 or so battles in the game?

I'm not saying that withholding vital information is okay, but if all games laid out their gears on the table instruction manuals and tutorials would literally be days long.
Well, you don't have to know (and cannot possibly be expected to memorize during normal gameplay) literally everything of course. I suppose that's what strategy guides are for. But for a noncommercial game, you probably should have a technical readme for the people interested since no one's gonna write a book of tables or GameFAQs guide.

Let's try a simple example.

BAD -

FFT: Books do damage based on PA and MA. You find this out by visiting GameFAQs.

GOOD -

FFXII: Katanas do damage based on PA and MA. You find this by visiting the help board in the first city's inn and selecting "About Weapons". Precise formula is found on GameFAQs, but you know what makes your numbers go up going by ingame info, which is the relevant part.
I suppose that's what strategy guides are for.


And even strategy guides don't catch it all; honestly I don't expect them to. I expect them to be able to guide me to get everything in the game, but I don't expect them to be able to reverse engineer the game's programming and tell me damage algorithms for every action in the game, obscure hidden properties of equipment (ex; "the Bronze Sword does 1.2x damage to exactly two enemies 20 hours into the game"), or in an actual example, how the result of a fortune telling lady in an insignificant town in Saga Frontier (full of other fortune tellers) influences the randomization of a few other things in the game, including another insignificant treasure chest in a completely unrelated dungeon, the chances of a rare enemy appearing, and the chances that something else will happen.

I don't NEED to know all of these things, technical FAQ or not. Saga Frontier example; Yes, I need to know that Magic spells do damage based on INT and WILL, but I don't NEED to know that all enemies have equipment programmed on them that determines their stat/elemental weaknesses and resistances (the fact that enemies have equipment that determines their weaknesses instead of it being innate is totally irrelevant to the player; because you can't do anything about it and they're weak to whatever they're weak to all the same)
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
This debate sounds very familiar; didn't we go over this when Craze admitted that he includes things in his games to help the player 'cheat' their way out of bad situations?

Anyway, I kinda agree with both Tonfa and Feld. Relevant information and transparency in mechanics are important in games, but you don't have to know absolutely EVERY little detail. Things like damage algorithms don't need to be spelled out, so long as the info about how the player can affect them is clear (like which stats affect what abilities). And, focusing back on item descriptions here, an item should give the player the information they need to understand its uses. Some things will require more explanation than others, but it all depends on the game, too.
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