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Craze
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CloseRPGs tend to (but don't always) have lots and lots and lots of numbers. A lot of these numbers are hidden - for example, you know that your Main Gauche probably raises your critical hit rate, but you don't know exactly by how much.
In Karsuman and I's current project, we are planning on showing every single number in the game to the player in a very in-depth status menu. This menu will show the attributes/statistics and explain what they mean, like
Here's the entire list of NUMBERS, except not really since Skills are not in yet. Skills are stuff like "Lockpicking: 10" that let you... pick locks.
http://rpgmaker.net/users/Craze/locker/Philly__Stat_Breakdown.txt
(I just realized that in the Statistics section, Masteries assume that the base is 50 instead of 5,000. Whoops, sorry. If you're actually doing the math (nerd), add a few zeroes.)
The idea behind the separation of Attributes and Statistics is that Attributes are the governing body of a character, so the player can just glance at Laufrey's high Dexterity and Intelligence to know that she is supposed to deal lots of magical crits. If they want to know the exact details, they can look at her Statistics to know exactly how often she'll get those crits based on her Spell Critical stat.
Is this a horrible idea? Would you prefer this over "well this wand increases your chance to evade spells" on equipment? Do you think that Karsuman and I are just plain ol' insane?
(If it matters, this is a dungeon crawler akin to Wizardry, but less archaic. The overall goal of this design is to show the player what's up, but not overwhelm them with random fantasywords.)
In Karsuman and I's current project, we are planning on showing every single number in the game to the player in a very in-depth status menu. This menu will show the attributes/statistics and explain what they mean, like
Intelligence: 23 Raises Spell Power and Spell Critical Damage
Weapon Evasion: 15 Governed by Agility. The direct chance to dodge a Weapon attack
Here's the entire list of NUMBERS, except not really since Skills are not in yet. Skills are stuff like "Lockpicking: 10" that let you... pick locks.
http://rpgmaker.net/users/Craze/locker/Philly__Stat_Breakdown.txt
(I just realized that in the Statistics section, Masteries assume that the base is 50 instead of 5,000. Whoops, sorry. If you're actually doing the math (nerd), add a few zeroes.)
The idea behind the separation of Attributes and Statistics is that Attributes are the governing body of a character, so the player can just glance at Laufrey's high Dexterity and Intelligence to know that she is supposed to deal lots of magical crits. If they want to know the exact details, they can look at her Statistics to know exactly how often she'll get those crits based on her Spell Critical stat.
Is this a horrible idea? Would you prefer this over "well this wand increases your chance to evade spells" on equipment? Do you think that Karsuman and I are just plain ol' insane?
(If it matters, this is a dungeon crawler akin to Wizardry, but less archaic. The overall goal of this design is to show the player what's up, but not overwhelm them with random fantasywords.)
Yeah, I already coded the equipment menu to only display stats that are being changed by your equipment swapping. For example, BoringSword -> BoringAxe might show
W-PWR 20 -> 27
S-PWR 20 -> 16
W-ACC 100 -> 90
but BoringSword -> HolySword might show
Piety 23 -> 24
S-PWR 20 -> 22
H-PWR x -> y
E-PWR x -> y
The last two stats are only shown because the increase to Piety affects them.
W-PWR 20 -> 27
S-PWR 20 -> 16
W-ACC 100 -> 90
but BoringSword -> HolySword might show
Piety 23 -> 24
S-PWR 20 -> 22
H-PWR x -> y
E-PWR x -> y
The last two stats are only shown because the increase to Piety affects them.
This actually makes a lot of sense and is a good idea, especially in a dungeon-crawler where stats and all-around-not-dying are quite important. If you've ever played WoW (oh boy!) then you know you can see stats such as Agility, Stamina, etc. But side-by-side you can also see how much damage & critical strike chance that extra point of Agility gets you.
I fall into the category of "meh" when I see items that say "increase critical hits" or whatever. If I've seen on GameFAQs that it means "+50% critical chance" then I will equip the hell out of that item, otherwise something that gives me +2 ATK will seem more appealing because I know that means something and the other item could be, like, "+2% critical chance".
I fall into the category of "meh" when I see items that say "increase critical hits" or whatever. If I've seen on GameFAQs that it means "+50% critical chance" then I will equip the hell out of that item, otherwise something that gives me +2 ATK will seem more appealing because I know that means something and the other item could be, like, "+2% critical chance".
Darken
3952
I think this works well for a very technical RPG, where the whole idea is high customization depth. Though I never had a problem with "This does medium fire damage" "This does heavy fire damage" for an RPG where most of the focus is taking advantage of elemental weaknesses (Persona series). Apples and oranges I guess.
But I really hate how some WRPGs can be very misleading about their stats, one example would be planescape torment where you are given a choice to allocate your stats to some degree. However if you don't put it almost all in wisdom, WOOPS you got the wrong stats. Because wisdom happens to be the best stat due to it determining how much experience you get, best dialogue options, most recovered memories and also increases your lore skill. It didn't make the game completely imbalanced, it just seemed unfair that the stat description was like "yeah im not going to mention that this is the most OVERPOWERED STAT IN THE GAME heh"
A good example would be RO, and it reminds me of Craze's attributes->stats system. Basically heres the typical status window:
Left side are the customizable stats (STR,AGI,VIT,INT,DEX,LUK) right side is what those stats actually change (ATK,DEF,MATAK,MDEF,HIT etc.etc {except Status point and Guild}). Basically it tells you what exactly is changed after increasing a stat. DEX will increase your HIT, but also raise your ATK and Aspd a little. Vit will increase your DEF bonus and health (not shown but its in the main HP/MP status panel) and so on. Although the game doesn't exactly tell you what exactly you can achieve with these stats, you can use handy RO calculators or hit/flee charts (ex. you need 200 flee to dodge this monster 95% of the time) to figure your own build out. I'd say this system really works for when the player is given complete control in how she determines her stats.
But I really hate how some WRPGs can be very misleading about their stats, one example would be planescape torment where you are given a choice to allocate your stats to some degree. However if you don't put it almost all in wisdom, WOOPS you got the wrong stats. Because wisdom happens to be the best stat due to it determining how much experience you get, best dialogue options, most recovered memories and also increases your lore skill. It didn't make the game completely imbalanced, it just seemed unfair that the stat description was like "yeah im not going to mention that this is the most OVERPOWERED STAT IN THE GAME heh"
A good example would be RO, and it reminds me of Craze's attributes->stats system. Basically heres the typical status window:
Left side are the customizable stats (STR,AGI,VIT,INT,DEX,LUK) right side is what those stats actually change (ATK,DEF,MATAK,MDEF,HIT etc.etc {except Status point and Guild}). Basically it tells you what exactly is changed after increasing a stat. DEX will increase your HIT, but also raise your ATK and Aspd a little. Vit will increase your DEF bonus and health (not shown but its in the main HP/MP status panel) and so on. Although the game doesn't exactly tell you what exactly you can achieve with these stats, you can use handy RO calculators or hit/flee charts (ex. you need 200 flee to dodge this monster 95% of the time) to figure your own build out. I'd say this system really works for when the player is given complete control in how she determines her stats.
post=153900
But I really hate how some WRPGs can be very misleading about their stats, one example would be planescape torment where you are given a choice to allocate your stats to some degree. However if you don't put it almost all in wisdom, WOOPS you got the wrong stats. Because wisdom happens to be the best stat due to it determining how much experience you get, best dialogue options, most recovered memories and also increases your lore skill. It didn't make the game completely imbalanced, it just seemed unfair that the stat description was like "yeah im not going to mention that this is the most OVERPOWERED STAT IN THE GAME heh"
O.o
Making experience gain or plot points based on a statistic seems like a mind-blowingly bad idea. Leaving the strength of that statistic to the player seems... irresponsible.
Well... when I played FFTA, I liked that I knew the hit probability before attacking. I guess I like numbers, and I would like if they were all presented. I'm just not sure if that would go well with any kind of game. For instance, I don't know if Final Fantasy VI (just an example) would be better if item descriptions had a lot of numbers. I guess it would go well with a more tactical, gameplay oriented game.
Shinan
4314
post=153904
O.o
Making experience gain or plot points based on a statistic seems like a mind-blowingly bad idea. Leaving the strength of that statistic to the player seems... irresponsible.
What. Don't you trust the player? There's a lot of games where a certain stat or skill (like intelligence stat or diplomacy skill) alters dialogue choices in games... How is this a mindblowingly bad idea?
It's an idea that could be amazing, if it was perfectly implemented. However...
1) Because of the typical stereotypes of the purpose of statistics in RPGs, not telling a player that the Wisdom stat changes the plot or increases your EXP gain is completely dangerous. This sounds like a blatant mistake on Planetscape's part than a problem with the system, though.
2) Gaining EXP based on a stat is difficult to balance correctly and also strangely redundant and self-defeating - spending stat points to gain levels faster to get... more stat points. Even if this was well done, you would start off very weak for your level but be extremely overleveled by the later parts of the game, stabbing the heart of the difficulty curve and destroying the morale of the player in the early-game, possibly ruining his desire to play.
3) A diplomacy skill makes sense, assuming you're choosing from a list of non-combat stats such as "Thievery, Diplomacy, Survival, Seduction, etc." But while assigning the same statistics to both combat and non-combat skills may make realistic sense, it's actually reducing the "open customization" of the character. What if you wanted to play a hulking, muscly fighter, but wanted to debate politics with the king, not just threaten him with your sword? What if you wanted to play a wizard, but you couldn't break into the enemy's dungeon because you were too weak and girly to kick down the door?
I trust the player, but that sort of stat system would actually limit available choices, not increase them, and it would limit them in a way that the player would never really know what he was missing or what he did wrong. Even if he did, it would be a choice that would be unrecoverable (assuming stat points are at least semi-permanent) and while I'm willing to accept that the guy who spent the first 20 levels as a Mage will never deal great Attack damage, I'm not ready to sit in a dungeon handcuffed to a wall because my STR is too low to break the chains.
1) Because of the typical stereotypes of the purpose of statistics in RPGs, not telling a player that the Wisdom stat changes the plot or increases your EXP gain is completely dangerous. This sounds like a blatant mistake on Planetscape's part than a problem with the system, though.
2) Gaining EXP based on a stat is difficult to balance correctly and also strangely redundant and self-defeating - spending stat points to gain levels faster to get... more stat points. Even if this was well done, you would start off very weak for your level but be extremely overleveled by the later parts of the game, stabbing the heart of the difficulty curve and destroying the morale of the player in the early-game, possibly ruining his desire to play.
3) A diplomacy skill makes sense, assuming you're choosing from a list of non-combat stats such as "Thievery, Diplomacy, Survival, Seduction, etc." But while assigning the same statistics to both combat and non-combat skills may make realistic sense, it's actually reducing the "open customization" of the character. What if you wanted to play a hulking, muscly fighter, but wanted to debate politics with the king, not just threaten him with your sword? What if you wanted to play a wizard, but you couldn't break into the enemy's dungeon because you were too weak and girly to kick down the door?
I trust the player, but that sort of stat system would actually limit available choices, not increase them, and it would limit them in a way that the player would never really know what he was missing or what he did wrong. Even if he did, it would be a choice that would be unrecoverable (assuming stat points are at least semi-permanent) and while I'm willing to accept that the guy who spent the first 20 levels as a Mage will never deal great Attack damage, I'm not ready to sit in a dungeon handcuffed to a wall because my STR is too low to break the chains.
Darken
3952
1) Because of the typical stereotypes of the purpose of statistics in RPGs, not telling a player that the Wisdom stat changes the plot or increases your EXP gain is completely dangerous. This sounds like a blatant mistake on Planetscape's part than a problem with the system, though.
It does actually... http://www.gameandplayer.net/images/inset/inset1_09_0601_planescape.jpg
Though I was talking about from the way everything was worded its really easy for the player to think STR is more important or something.
Fair enough, but telling me that I can "recall memories" is one of the vaguest things I've ever heard. I'm glad it says I'm heroic though, that's pretty sweet.
Shinan
4314
post=153951
3) A diplomacy skill makes sense, assuming you're choosing from a list of non-combat stats such as "Thievery, Diplomacy, Survival, Seduction, etc." But while assigning the same statistics to both combat and non-combat skills may make realistic sense, it's actually reducing the "open customization" of the character. What if you wanted to play a hulking, muscly fighter, but wanted to debate politics with the king, not just threaten him with your sword? What if you wanted to play a wizard, but you couldn't break into the enemy's dungeon because you were too weak and girly to kick down the door?
I trust the player, but that sort of stat system would actually limit available choices, not increase them, and it would limit them in a way that the player would never really know what he was missing or what he did wrong. Even if he did, it would be a choice that would be unrecoverable (assuming stat points are at least semi-permanent) and while I'm willing to accept that the guy who spent the first 20 levels as a Mage will never deal great Attack damage, I'm not ready to sit in a dungeon handcuffed to a wall because my STR is too low to break the chains.
This is not really what this topic is about but derailing topics is what RMN is all about right?
What you're describing here is actually this thing called roleplaying. In order to do something you have to sacrifice something else. Choice & Consequence. The magic words of RPGs.
Well instead of just talking about roleplaying in rpgs I guess I have to talk some numbers too. As a guy who recently has been playing a lot of strategy games (mainly Europa Universalis 3) I love numbers. Being able to tell exactly how a decision affects things is one of those things I like a lot. I also like it when games give me %-chances to hit and damage estimates as is very common in tactical games.
However it's also good if there's the "soft values" available for those who just don't care to go indepth enough. With soft values I mean descriptions of what an item (for example) is. Preferably with lots of those fluffy words "This is the sword of a hero called Grashnakam the Cowardly, he survived many battles just by avoiding getting hit and running away. blablabla..." (actual effect bonus to evasion but decreases hit chance or something)
However... sometimes numbers are bad. If the game itself is all about the soft values having these hard numbers suddenly appearing in only one aspect of the game might be a bit jarring. And there's no point in only going halway when showing the numbers. If not every number is shown then it can be pointless to show any at all.
Or something.
I love roleplaying, but removing dialogue options based on your Wisdom score is forcing the player to make a decision he might not want to make, which is the opposite of roleplaying... I guess you could argue that his character's too dumb to think of that decision, but that's realistic to the pita degree.
And you didn't help with the derailing :P
I agree that you should stick with either hard values or soft values, depending on their importance in the game. For combat-based games like dungeon-crawlers or real-time strategies, showing the numbers is likely important because it means life and death. For most typical JRPGs, I've rarely found a use for numbers. The best equipment is almost always completely obviously the best equipment. I remember when I played FF7; the game doesn't tell you much about the power of any stat, so I didn't give two damns when I got a level-up. However, when I got a new level of Fire or Haste, I'd pump my fist in the air and shout.
And you didn't help with the derailing :P
I agree that you should stick with either hard values or soft values, depending on their importance in the game. For combat-based games like dungeon-crawlers or real-time strategies, showing the numbers is likely important because it means life and death. For most typical JRPGs, I've rarely found a use for numbers. The best equipment is almost always completely obviously the best equipment. I remember when I played FF7; the game doesn't tell you much about the power of any stat, so I didn't give two damns when I got a level-up. However, when I got a new level of Fire or Haste, I'd pump my fist in the air and shout.
Shinan
4314
post=153959
I love roleplaying, but removing dialogue options based on your Wisdom score is forcing the player to make a decision he might not want to make, which is the opposite of roleplaying... I guess you could argue that his character's too dumb to think of that decision, but that's realistic to the pita degree.
Actually I think it's pretty dumb if a guy with Intelligence (or wisdom) of 2 can discuss the same things in detail as someone with a score of 20. (See Arcanum, if you pick an intelligence of 3 or so all your character's dialog options will be something like "uurgh", "Me like smash" or "buh, bye". Which is a really nice touch). If you wanted to roleplay a guy who could smooth-talk his way through a game then why didn't you put some points into those stats instead of making that strength-centric guy?
Darken
3952
Well it balances out when you are probably more stronger to take on a fight. A smart guy will be able to avoid combat through dialog options but if he gets into combat, theres little chance he'll last long enough.
DFalcon
2141
post=153956
Fair enough, but telling me that I can "recall memories" is one of the vaguest things I've ever heard. I'm glad it says I'm heroic though, that's pretty sweet.
Doesn't a player at that point already know the main character has total amnesia? I'm not arguing what matters most is obvious, but at least qualitatively it seems clear enough what "recall memories" will be doing.
----
To get back to Craze - it's more important for me to be able to access numbers than always see numbers, but that just means it's a UI decision rather than a gameplay-design decision. Sounds like you could probably organize it sensibly so people get the idea pretty quickly what increasing each attribute does.
So mostly I think you may be over-abbreviating your statistics a little. ATK and DEF can be a good solid base, but someone weighing the benefits of the S-CDMG, W-PEN sword versus the H-ITK staff may take pause. It'd be helpful and hopefully wouldn't take up too much space to recast these as, say, "Spell critical damage +5", "Ignore 30% physical defense", etc.
The idea is that the help box will say, for example:
"Weapon (Sword). 30/30. +5 Spell Critical Damage, +5 Weapon Penetration."
"Weapon (Mystic). 20/40. +10 Heal Intake."
x/y is W-PWR/S-PWR.
At worst, the filtered stat change window will say "S-CDMG 40 -> 45." At best it will be the full stat name, but I doubt that will fit so at semi-best it will be "Spell C. Damage 40 -> 45" or "S - C. Damage 40 -> 45."
(I just made it so that base ACC is automatically 100 adjusted by DEX and Mastery, so that your weapon/Mastery combo still affects your hit rate but I don't have to put the hit rate on most weapons.)
"Weapon (Sword). 30/30. +5 Spell Critical Damage, +5 Weapon Penetration."
"Weapon (Mystic). 20/40. +10 Heal Intake."
x/y is W-PWR/S-PWR.
At worst, the filtered stat change window will say "S-CDMG 40 -> 45." At best it will be the full stat name, but I doubt that will fit so at semi-best it will be "Spell C. Damage 40 -> 45" or "S - C. Damage 40 -> 45."
(I just made it so that base ACC is automatically 100 adjusted by DEX and Mastery, so that your weapon/Mastery combo still affects your hit rate but I don't have to put the hit rate on most weapons.)
ashriot
222
I love the idea of seeing exactly what the stats do! Honestly, all those years of Final Fantasy, it had always bothered me not knowing what exactly Vitality did or exactly how Strength affected your damage.
I use an Excel spreadsheet to balance and determine stat growth. I've put it into a game and given it a run and it works really well.
A side note, in this project, you cannot miss; not even with status effects. Also equipment and talents can affect all stats including growth and non-growth.
The way stats work in my current project is like this:
___________________________________________________________
Stat Growth: There are three core "growth stats" that improve as each character participates in battles. There aren't level ups, but each character has greater or smaller growth in each stat. Also, each character has a Primary stat. That stat gives them Power, which is damage or healing.
___________________________________________________________
Calculated Stats: These don't grow independently of the growth stats, but are affected by talents and equipment.
Health: HP, if you reach 0 you fall unconscious and must receive healing or a bandage to wake up. Also ending the fight awakens.
Power: It's really Attack Power or Spell Power or Psychic Power, depending on the character. But it's simply referred to Power for the purpose of the entire party and affects all abilities that cause damage or healing. If an ability has a coefficient of 60% it causes 60% of that user's Power (damage or healing.)
Attack: Reduces a defender's Defense. If their defense is lowered to 0, Attack is converted into additional Power, but at a lower rate.
Defense: Directly lowers an attacker's Power (before the coefficient). Is lowered by Attack.
Crit Chance: This isn't affected by a stat; each character starts with a 15% chance to crit and this can be improved with talents or equipment. Also Spirit Primaries being with 25% crit.
Vigor: When a character successfully crits, this is added directly into their Power before any calculations. Basically how hard a crit crits.
___________________________________________________________
Resistances: You can have a resistance to a class of damage (Physical, Elemental, or Divine) and/or a type (Martial, Fire) but they don't stack between each other. A character with 25% Physical Resistance and a 35% Martial Resistance doesn't get a 60% total to Martial, just 35%.
Physical: Includes Martial and Corporeal. Martial is weapon, very common, and Corporeal is bleeding.
Elemental: Includes Fire, Frost, Lightning, and Nature.
Divine: Includes Holy and Shadow.
___________________________________________________________
The Growth Stats: The Primary grants 1.0 Power per point. These are the only 3 stats that increase after a battle.
Body: (If Primary, you gain a 10% increased Power and Health and a 10% resistance to Physical damage.) Each point of Body provides:
7 max Health
0.1 Attack
0.1 Defense
Mind: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Attack and Defense and a 10% resistance to Elemental damage.) Each point of Mind provides:
0.2 Attack
0.2 Defense
0.3 Vigor
Spirit: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Vigor and Crit Chance and a 10% resistance to Divine damage.) Each point of Spirit provides:
0.7 Vigor
3 max Health
0.1 Defense
___________________________________________________________
Math Example:
Attacking with Ki Blast: 120% Coefficient, Power: 563, Attack: 99 vs. Defense: 132, Holy Resistance: 15%.
((Power - (Defense - Attack)) * (1 - Resistance)) * (Coefficient)
((563 - (132 - 99)) * (1 - 0.15)) * (1.2)
((563 - (33)) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
((530) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
(450.5) * (1.2)
Damage = 540.6
I use an Excel spreadsheet to balance and determine stat growth. I've put it into a game and given it a run and it works really well.
A side note, in this project, you cannot miss; not even with status effects. Also equipment and talents can affect all stats including growth and non-growth.
The way stats work in my current project is like this:
___________________________________________________________
Stat Growth: There are three core "growth stats" that improve as each character participates in battles. There aren't level ups, but each character has greater or smaller growth in each stat. Also, each character has a Primary stat. That stat gives them Power, which is damage or healing.
___________________________________________________________
Calculated Stats: These don't grow independently of the growth stats, but are affected by talents and equipment.
Health: HP, if you reach 0 you fall unconscious and must receive healing or a bandage to wake up. Also ending the fight awakens.
Power: It's really Attack Power or Spell Power or Psychic Power, depending on the character. But it's simply referred to Power for the purpose of the entire party and affects all abilities that cause damage or healing. If an ability has a coefficient of 60% it causes 60% of that user's Power (damage or healing.)
Attack: Reduces a defender's Defense. If their defense is lowered to 0, Attack is converted into additional Power, but at a lower rate.
Defense: Directly lowers an attacker's Power (before the coefficient). Is lowered by Attack.
Crit Chance: This isn't affected by a stat; each character starts with a 15% chance to crit and this can be improved with talents or equipment. Also Spirit Primaries being with 25% crit.
Vigor: When a character successfully crits, this is added directly into their Power before any calculations. Basically how hard a crit crits.
___________________________________________________________
Resistances: You can have a resistance to a class of damage (Physical, Elemental, or Divine) and/or a type (Martial, Fire) but they don't stack between each other. A character with 25% Physical Resistance and a 35% Martial Resistance doesn't get a 60% total to Martial, just 35%.
Physical: Includes Martial and Corporeal. Martial is weapon, very common, and Corporeal is bleeding.
Elemental: Includes Fire, Frost, Lightning, and Nature.
Divine: Includes Holy and Shadow.
___________________________________________________________
The Growth Stats: The Primary grants 1.0 Power per point. These are the only 3 stats that increase after a battle.
Body: (If Primary, you gain a 10% increased Power and Health and a 10% resistance to Physical damage.) Each point of Body provides:
7 max Health
0.1 Attack
0.1 Defense
Mind: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Attack and Defense and a 10% resistance to Elemental damage.) Each point of Mind provides:
0.2 Attack
0.2 Defense
0.3 Vigor
Spirit: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Vigor and Crit Chance and a 10% resistance to Divine damage.) Each point of Spirit provides:
0.7 Vigor
3 max Health
0.1 Defense
___________________________________________________________
Math Example:
Attacking with Ki Blast: 120% Coefficient, Power: 563, Attack: 99 vs. Defense: 132, Holy Resistance: 15%.
((Power - (Defense - Attack)) * (1 - Resistance)) * (Coefficient)
((563 - (132 - 99)) * (1 - 0.15)) * (1.2)
((563 - (33)) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
((530) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
(450.5) * (1.2)
Damage = 540.6
