Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
LAY BARE YOUR NUMBERS
Posts
ashriot
222
ashriot
View playlists
Closepost=154064
Wondering how the coefficient magically turned from 1.2 into 0.6 and then back into 1.2.
Haha, oops. I had it at 0.6, but changed it to 1.2 in case someone was confused why it would be so low as 60%. But, I forgot to change it in all the steps >.<
Any other thoughts besides my magic coefficient?
It seems like a pretty solid system, and it's easy to understand. It's definitely the kind of system you either have to explain to your players at least a little bit, or not show them any of the non-main numbers at all.
ashriot
222
Thanks, yeah I'm thinking of a way to convey the info. Either a help screen, tutorial, or maybe a tooltip.
WolfCoder
3554
How much number you put in a game depends on how much the player needs, and the kind of game. In a tactical RPG or a strategy game, you need the numbers. In a typical single-party turn based RPG, you don't need lots of numbers, but it might not hurt to have them.
It's a matter of taste. The reason I hate most old-school PC wRPGs is because the game is just an overload of stuff you can do and complexity. Compare with the jRPG console games of the same era where there were few, simple numbers you can get your head around easily but there wasn't much to them.
It's critically important in whatever you do that you design your GUI/HUD very very well to convey information in a nice way. The more numbers there are, the more you have to really organize, layout, and convey this information. If you're going to have numbers for EVERYTHING, consider looking at different kinds of graphs.
It's a matter of taste. The reason I hate most old-school PC wRPGs is because the game is just an overload of stuff you can do and complexity. Compare with the jRPG console games of the same era where there were few, simple numbers you can get your head around easily but there wasn't much to them.
It's critically important in whatever you do that you design your GUI/HUD very very well to convey information in a nice way. The more numbers there are, the more you have to really organize, layout, and convey this information. If you're going to have numbers for EVERYTHING, consider looking at different kinds of graphs.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In a turn-based game, from the player's perspective, detailed numbers are wonderful. In a action RPG, or in a game that uses an ATB system, it barely matters either way, since the player probably isn't going to have time to read it. It's still great for, say, equipment. But not for skills.
However, from the developer's perspective, it's not always great to tell the player too much. Should you tell the player that Inferno and Pyrosmash are the same power, but one is physical and one is magical? Yeah. Should you tell them that the base damage of Pyrosmash II is 27% stronger than Pyrosmash, and on top of that it ignores 4.6% of the target's defense? No, you probably should not. It's too much information.
Either the player doesn't care about that level of information, in which case showing it to them just confuses them, or they do care about that level of information, in which case showing it to them will probably remove too much of the challenge of your game. How much challenge can a game really have if you always tell the player exactly what the optimal course of action is? Of course, you can also show too little... but I think there's a happy medium somewhere between FF Tactics and Nethack.
However, from the developer's perspective, it's not always great to tell the player too much. Should you tell the player that Inferno and Pyrosmash are the same power, but one is physical and one is magical? Yeah. Should you tell them that the base damage of Pyrosmash II is 27% stronger than Pyrosmash, and on top of that it ignores 4.6% of the target's defense? No, you probably should not. It's too much information.
Either the player doesn't care about that level of information, in which case showing it to them just confuses them, or they do care about that level of information, in which case showing it to them will probably remove too much of the challenge of your game. How much challenge can a game really have if you always tell the player exactly what the optimal course of action is? Of course, you can also show too little... but I think there's a happy medium somewhere between FF Tactics and Nethack.
If "page of one hundred million numbers" is an OPTIONAL feature, than I am all for it. But you shouldn't have to look at all that gobblydegook every time you want to check basic info on your character (like what hat he has equipped or whatever).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Eh, having your elemental defenses and critical hit rate and dodge rate shown on the equipment screen is not going to blind you. And if the game is well designed, then those pieces of information are actually going to be vital to choosing equipment, and if you don't have them (or pay attention to them) then you're likely to die.
Basically, giving the player more information means you have to expect that they will be optimizing themselves more effectively, and so you have to give them less of an allowable error margin if you want your game to have any sort of difficulty. Especially near the beginning of the game, where the player would normally have no idea how well different things work compared to each-other. By the end of the game, they're going to know all that stuff whether you show it to them or not - unless they're completely incompetent, or the game is so easy that they never really have to worry about their equipment and stats.
I will warn you that telling the player everything removes a lot of the enjoyable feel of learning and exploration that makes RPGs fun. Figuring things out is, in RPGs, the main way we get better at the game. People like to get better at the game as it goes on. If they can figure everything in the entire game out in the first 20 minutes, the next 30 hours are going to be really boring.
Part of what I liked about FF Tactics was that the job tree was huge, and took the entire game to get through. And while the game did tell you lots of details about abilities - even ones you didn't know yet - it didn't tell you everything. You still had to test things out to see how well they worked. The game told you that casting Praise would raise an ally's bravery, and maybe even by how much - but it didn't tell you how much of a damage bonus that extra bravery would provide. And also, the game still managed to continue unlocking new stuff for you to play around with, throughout the entire game. So I never got bored of fooling around with different jobs, trying to figure out what worked and what didn't.
Basically, giving the player more information means you have to expect that they will be optimizing themselves more effectively, and so you have to give them less of an allowable error margin if you want your game to have any sort of difficulty. Especially near the beginning of the game, where the player would normally have no idea how well different things work compared to each-other. By the end of the game, they're going to know all that stuff whether you show it to them or not - unless they're completely incompetent, or the game is so easy that they never really have to worry about their equipment and stats.
I will warn you that telling the player everything removes a lot of the enjoyable feel of learning and exploration that makes RPGs fun. Figuring things out is, in RPGs, the main way we get better at the game. People like to get better at the game as it goes on. If they can figure everything in the entire game out in the first 20 minutes, the next 30 hours are going to be really boring.
Part of what I liked about FF Tactics was that the job tree was huge, and took the entire game to get through. And while the game did tell you lots of details about abilities - even ones you didn't know yet - it didn't tell you everything. You still had to test things out to see how well they worked. The game told you that casting Praise would raise an ally's bravery, and maybe even by how much - but it didn't tell you how much of a damage bonus that extra bravery would provide. And also, the game still managed to continue unlocking new stuff for you to play around with, throughout the entire game. So I never got bored of fooling around with different jobs, trying to figure out what worked and what didn't.
LockeZ: By opening up the NUMBAHZ to view, Karsuman and I are actually greatly enhancing the power of our skill tree. Like FFT's job tree, there is a Fucking Massive power tree in our project.
We also literally cut out half of the numbers - "skills" (think D&D, but more combat-oriented) and "masteries" have been wiped out completely. Except not, because we added them as passive powers in the skill tree.
A few examples that I feel are improved by showing all of the numbahz:
<Player> Oh god if I stack that with a wand's S-PEN and use the Wisdom UP as the requisite for the Lore tree's Analyze, I can quickly discover an enemy's weakness and make it EXPLODE
<Player> I know that each point of CHA raises my Ailment Power stat, which determines the damage of my degens... holy shit, combined with Blood Tap (NOTE: Degen that channels HP to caster) and CHA's effect on Subtlety, Catalina's only worry is AoE attacks, but she'll automatically be healed by the DoT!
<Player> Heh heh. When Vi gets hit, I can just have her throw some Emergency Care on herself to raise her PIE and top off her HP, then use PIE's boost to Heal Power to heal an ally normally.
(NOTE: Emergency Care is an Instant heal spell, meaning you can still act afterward)
...what I'm saying is that we are combining OPEN MECHANICS with LOTS OF OPTIONS. No, seriously, there are nine playable characters and each one is easily going to be able to find their niche in the Fucking Massive power tree. It'll also be fun to explore, since only stuff you have at least one prerequisite for is shown - each character will be feeling around, unlocking all the cool abilities you'll need to (not) die horribly while miles underground while not stepping on other people's toes.
We also literally cut out half of the numbers - "skills" (think D&D, but more combat-oriented) and "masteries" have been wiped out completely. Except not, because we added them as passive powers in the skill tree.
A few examples that I feel are improved by showing all of the numbahz:
Magic Might(Requires INT UP 2/WIS UP 2) Passive: Gain a permanent +25 Spell Penetration boost
<Player> Oh god if I stack that with a wand's S-PEN and use the Wisdom UP as the requisite for the Lore tree's Analyze, I can quickly discover an enemy's weakness and make it EXPLODE
Decadence(Requires CHA UP 5) Basic Action: Trade up to three random positive tokens for an equal amount of CHA+ tokens
<Player> I know that each point of CHA raises my Ailment Power stat, which determines the damage of my degens... holy shit, combined with Blood Tap (NOTE: Degen that channels HP to caster) and CHA's effect on Subtlety, Catalina's only worry is AoE attacks, but she'll automatically be healed by the DoT!
Faith(Requires Medical Care 2/Emergency Care) Passive: PIE+ token comes along with Emergency Care
<Player> Heh heh. When Vi gets hit, I can just have her throw some Emergency Care on herself to raise her PIE and top off her HP, then use PIE's boost to Heal Power to heal an ally normally.
(NOTE: Emergency Care is an Instant heal spell, meaning you can still act afterward)
...what I'm saying is that we are combining OPEN MECHANICS with LOTS OF OPTIONS. No, seriously, there are nine playable characters and each one is easily going to be able to find their niche in the Fucking Massive power tree. It'll also be fun to explore, since only stuff you have at least one prerequisite for is shown - each character will be feeling around, unlocking all the cool abilities you'll need to (not) die horribly while miles underground while not stepping on other people's toes.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like that. Lots and lots of options is definitely the way to go. I would just warn that you need to make sure the tree continues to get bigger and bigger as the game goes on, instead of opening it all up from the beginning.
It works like the Etrian Odyssey series. Every level lets you pop a point in, and some skills are "filler." That is, they increase the power of a skillset and work as prerequisites.
So, in order to simply start on the Leadership branch of Piety, you need to work in some Charisma. To get the most out of the Leadership branch itself, you need to upgrade Leadership. Just opening up Leadership rank 1 takes roughly five levels (ignoring where characters start and how many points they start with) because you need the stat boost passives. It'll probably be longer, since there are more interesting skills to purchase that aren't +1 stat point!
From there, you can spend twelve entire levels maxing out just the Leadership tree... and the endgame is going to be for characters around level thirty.
The Leadership skill itself will benefit your previous purchases. For example, Get it Together might have a progression of a 34/50/75% success rate based on your Leadership rank.
tl;dr What I'm saying is that yeah, it gets bigger and promotes exploration in other parts of the power tree to achieve full Awesomeness status.
Charisma UP 1/2/3/4/5 (No requirement) Permanent: CHA +1 per point
...
blah blah blah all of Charisma's inflictions/seductions/bartering/etc.
...
Piety UP 1/2/3/4/5 (No requirement) Permanent: PIE +1 per point
...
blah blah blah healing stuff
...
Leadership 1/2/3 (Requires PIE UP 3/CHA UP 2) Permanent: Improves effectiveness of Leadership abilities
Get it Together (Requires Leadership 1) Basic Action: % chance of reviving an ally with minimal HP
Cheer Up (Requires Leadership 2) Power: Gives ally some of user's SP
Morale Drums (Requires Leadership 3) Power: Gives all allies HP Regen tokens
Victory Cry (Requires Morale Drums) Passive: When using Morale Drums, Grants all allies CON tokens as well
Finest Hour (Requires Morale Drums) Power: Enchanted KOed ally can act while down for awhile
Applied Learning (Requires Leadership 3/INT UP 1) Passive: All allies gain a bonus to EXP
Chain of Command (Requires Leadership 3/PIE UP 5) Passive: All leadership abilities are treated as Instants
So, in order to simply start on the Leadership branch of Piety, you need to work in some Charisma. To get the most out of the Leadership branch itself, you need to upgrade Leadership. Just opening up Leadership rank 1 takes roughly five levels (ignoring where characters start and how many points they start with) because you need the stat boost passives. It'll probably be longer, since there are more interesting skills to purchase that aren't +1 stat point!
From there, you can spend twelve entire levels maxing out just the Leadership tree... and the endgame is going to be for characters around level thirty.
The Leadership skill itself will benefit your previous purchases. For example, Get it Together might have a progression of a 34/50/75% success rate based on your Leadership rank.
tl;dr What I'm saying is that yeah, it gets bigger and promotes exploration in other parts of the power tree to achieve full Awesomeness status.
