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HP RECOVERY... AFTER EVERY BATTLE? MADNESS! (RESOURCE MANAGEMENT)
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CloseI've spent the past few days at work reading over RPG articles and reviews, as well as discussions on gameplay. Needless to say, I am an awful employee, but a topic came up a couple times that I'm curious about: Resource management.
I'm currently working on a game that, unlike many mainstream RPGs, restores your health, mana & status to full/normal after every battle, so this topic is very interesting to me. Apparently FFXIII did the same thing, and many people were turned off by the idea. Old-school Dragon Quest, on the other hand, is known for dungeons that sap everything you have, and if you're lucky then maybe you'll have enough to eek through.
So let's take a look!
Resource Management, or "Just a little... bit... further..."
PROS
---------------
+Adds a sense of danger to dungeon-diving. You don't know how long you'll be down there, what you'll face, or how many resources you'll need.
+Adds purpose to every battle. Every battle is a drain on your resources, your HP/MP, meaning you have to learn to be a spendthrift.
CONS
----------------
+Can easily be bypassed by grinding for potion money, or for levels so powerhouse your way through. A limited inventory can somewhat limit this.
+Each battle is not a fight for life and death, but reduced to a drain on resources. Fight monsters, try not to die, cast cure, move on. Only boss battles are interesting.
+Possibly hard to balance, making sure that the hero will have just enough cash to make it through can be challenging.
Full Bars and No Potions, or "Thank god we don't need any antidotes"
PROS
----------------
+It becomes possible to make each battle a challenge. Instead of trying to minimize MP loss, you're trying just to stay alive. More complexity can be added to normal battles, and they don't feel like a chore.
+Reduces need for tons upon tons of battles.
+Inventory system becomes less of an "annoyance" that takes away from the actual battles
CONS
----------------
+Resource management is a potentially interesting aspect of gameplay, and removing it removes the fear of being in a dungeon where disasterous things can happen.
+More battle types need to be added, because once a player can beat a pack of wolves at full health, he has no need to be afraid of them. Increases workload.
I am curious to know what other people think. This issue has been brought up before (notably here: http://rpgmaker.net/articles/173/)
(Even just writing this makes me wonder if I should switch back to an old-fashioned "stock up on items in town, quick" system)
I'm currently working on a game that, unlike many mainstream RPGs, restores your health, mana & status to full/normal after every battle, so this topic is very interesting to me. Apparently FFXIII did the same thing, and many people were turned off by the idea. Old-school Dragon Quest, on the other hand, is known for dungeons that sap everything you have, and if you're lucky then maybe you'll have enough to eek through.
So let's take a look!
Resource Management, or "Just a little... bit... further..."
PROS
---------------
+Adds a sense of danger to dungeon-diving. You don't know how long you'll be down there, what you'll face, or how many resources you'll need.
+Adds purpose to every battle. Every battle is a drain on your resources, your HP/MP, meaning you have to learn to be a spendthrift.
CONS
----------------
+Can easily be bypassed by grinding for potion money, or for levels so powerhouse your way through. A limited inventory can somewhat limit this.
+Each battle is not a fight for life and death, but reduced to a drain on resources. Fight monsters, try not to die, cast cure, move on. Only boss battles are interesting.
+Possibly hard to balance, making sure that the hero will have just enough cash to make it through can be challenging.
Full Bars and No Potions, or "Thank god we don't need any antidotes"
PROS
----------------
+It becomes possible to make each battle a challenge. Instead of trying to minimize MP loss, you're trying just to stay alive. More complexity can be added to normal battles, and they don't feel like a chore.
+Reduces need for tons upon tons of battles.
+Inventory system becomes less of an "annoyance" that takes away from the actual battles
CONS
----------------
+Resource management is a potentially interesting aspect of gameplay, and removing it removes the fear of being in a dungeon where disasterous things can happen.
+More battle types need to be added, because once a player can beat a pack of wolves at full health, he has no need to be afraid of them. Increases workload.
I am curious to know what other people think. This issue has been brought up before (notably here: http://rpgmaker.net/articles/173/)
(Even just writing this makes me wonder if I should switch back to an old-fashioned "stock up on items in town, quick" system)
Darken
3952
The Way had this, but thats only because the battles had zero importance other than to get more resources for the duels.
Levin
8
I have it in my game, after every battle you recover (except for K.O). Though I also added a hunger/stamina system where over time, you start to build hunger, and lower your stamina. HP is connected to hunger while EP (MP) is connected to stamina. These had to be recovered by eating food or sleeping in a bed (inn). As it degrades over time, you recover less and less after battle.
But, back to the differences, if done right, the healing after every battle can be a good thing. I like it, because it does offer that option to make battles more challenging w/o over expending the user. It doesn't matter how many potions that got in their pack, unless they can think tactics in battle, it won't do them any good.
Another thing to think about is Work vs Reward. If you do go with the heal after battle, and make the battles challenging, make the reward higher and worthwhile. Also monster placement is key. I don't want to fight 20 hard fights just to get to the boss. A lot of things to keep in mind when deciding between the two.
But, back to the differences, if done right, the healing after every battle can be a good thing. I like it, because it does offer that option to make battles more challenging w/o over expending the user. It doesn't matter how many potions that got in their pack, unless they can think tactics in battle, it won't do them any good.
Another thing to think about is Work vs Reward. If you do go with the heal after battle, and make the battles challenging, make the reward higher and worthwhile. Also monster placement is key. I don't want to fight 20 hard fights just to get to the boss. A lot of things to keep in mind when deciding between the two.
post=154687
I have it in my game, after every battle you recover (except for K.O). Though I also added a hunger/stamina system where over time, you start to build hunger, and lower your stamina. HP is connected to hunger while EP (MP) is connected to stamina. These had to be recovered by eating food or sleeping in a bed (inn). As it degrades over time, you recover less and less after battle.
I was just thinking about a system like this - What if you had a certain number of "Meals" and "Snacks". Each Meal would restore you to 100% HP/MP, each Snack would restore you to 75%, and afterward, you would only recover to 50% after every battle. Battles would be balanced around having 85%, meaning they'd be hard but not too hard after a Meal, tricky after only a Snack, and then damn challenging after nothing. You would have so many Meals/Snacks before returning to an Inn.
It keeps you on your toes in a dungeon (don't fight too many fights) but each individual battle is a pure test of your skill and strength, and battles get harder the more you fight. It removes the "grind grind grind for cash" aspect, but also makes dungeons more of a threat, because you can't stay there for too long.
post=154687
Another thing to think about is Work vs Reward. If you do go with the heal after battle, and make the battles challenging, make the reward higher and worthwhile. Also monster placement is key. I don't want to fight 20 hard fights just to get to the boss. A lot of things to keep in mind when deciding between the two.
For sure. I've just only realized that I've designed my maps like typical RPG maps, with tons of battles to be fought, even though few offer rewards besides HP/gold. One good point is that the battles are visible and easily dodged, meaning you don't have to fight most of them if you don't want to. You have to fight some, as most of the treasure is guarded by monsters, and once in a while the path is too.
I need to create more unique fights.
TheNecromancer
3160
So you have a certain number of meals/snacks, is this in addition to your inventory of potions and such?
Just curious, what engine are you making your game with?
As for unique fights, do you make use of the attributes? You could have different weapons have attributes like slash, blunt.... and the enemies have those weaknesses. With large enemies, have multiple target points, with patterns of weakness if you attack them in a certain order. With multiple targets, the rewards would be greater if you destroyed all the extra parts first. Have enemies transform(is that even possible in RM?) if you use certain attacks, like its weak against Ice but as soon as you use Ice on it it become some kind of Ice variant of that monster.
I actually don't have much experience with RPG battles, as I always make actions games, so I don't know what possible, or know what commands are available in battle to make use of.
What kind of fights do you have now? Is there anything unique about them already?
Just curious, what engine are you making your game with?
As for unique fights, do you make use of the attributes? You could have different weapons have attributes like slash, blunt.... and the enemies have those weaknesses. With large enemies, have multiple target points, with patterns of weakness if you attack them in a certain order. With multiple targets, the rewards would be greater if you destroyed all the extra parts first. Have enemies transform(is that even possible in RM?) if you use certain attacks, like its weak against Ice but as soon as you use Ice on it it become some kind of Ice variant of that monster.
I actually don't have much experience with RPG battles, as I always make actions games, so I don't know what possible, or know what commands are available in battle to make use of.
What kind of fights do you have now? Is there anything unique about them already?
Meals and Snacks would be in lieu of normal potions, etc.
I'm making my game with RM2k3.
And yea, I already have fights based on weaknesses, prioritizing targets, and transformations. The RM2k3 engine can be tricky sometimes, but it has a lot of possibilities for combat (although more recent engines almost certainly have more)
I'm not actually using the Meals/Snacks system, it's just an idea.
I'm making my game with RM2k3.
And yea, I already have fights based on weaknesses, prioritizing targets, and transformations. The RM2k3 engine can be tricky sometimes, but it has a lot of possibilities for combat (although more recent engines almost certainly have more)
I'm not actually using the Meals/Snacks system, it's just an idea.
DFalcon
2141
I actually wrote a follow-up to the roundtable on easy after-battle healing, but the gist is basically: if you're going to do it, go for fewer/harder battles and make sure people get the opportunity to save before getting into one.
Done that way it can be pretty good; I'm all for reducing the number of trash fights in a game.
Done that way it can be pretty good; I'm all for reducing the number of trash fights in a game.
Yup! There's no reason to make a 10-battle sequence when you can make a 5-battle sequence that's more actively challenging and wastes less time, assuming time played =/= game quality, which it doesn't (most of the time).
Even better, you make the main "dungeon" a sequence of 3 or 4 battles, of varying or slowly increasing strength, and like all good dungeons, hide treasure chests. Instead of at the end of a long empty hallway (filled with random encounters) you add a forced battle against a more difficult set of monsters guarding the chest. Then, the player only has to fight a few tricky but manageable battles to make it through the dungeon, but if you want the really good stuff, you gotta work for it and put yourself at risk.
And then a crazy hard boss encounter. Save point optional.
Even better, you make the main "dungeon" a sequence of 3 or 4 battles, of varying or slowly increasing strength, and like all good dungeons, hide treasure chests. Instead of at the end of a long empty hallway (filled with random encounters) you add a forced battle against a more difficult set of monsters guarding the chest. Then, the player only has to fight a few tricky but manageable battles to make it through the dungeon, but if you want the really good stuff, you gotta work for it and put yourself at risk.
And then a crazy hard boss encounter. Save point optional.
MKID232
435
I don't care either way, system-wise. Cross Edge uses both: HP Recovery after battles on the World Map, with Resource Management in Dungeons. Except with KO, in which case it doesn't bring you back on the World Map...I think. I just realized I never lost a character on the world map.
Crystalgate
694
Resource Management, or "Just a little... bit... further..."
CONS
----------------
+Can easily be bypassed by grinding for potion money, or for levels so powerhouse your way through. A limited inventory can somewhat limit this.
+Each battle is not a fight for life and death, but reduced to a drain on resources. Fight monsters, try not to die, cast cure, move on. Only boss battles are interesting.
+Possibly hard to balance, making sure that the hero will have just enough cash to make it through can be challenging.
You pretty much have to limit either inventory or how much gold the player can get. Even if the player doesn't grind, you have very little control over how much gold he/she acquires. Experience for example, follows a diminishing return. Take a look at default Arches/Aluxes. He needs about 11k exp to reach level 20. Double that and he gets to level 24, very far from twice of 20. Due to the diminishing return, you make a good estimation of what level the player will be unless he deliberately breaks the game. However, gold has no such diminishing return. Worse, if we assume the game is balanced with the assumption that the player spends half the gold on equipment, then the player getting twice as much gold means he has thrice as much to spend on consumable items. Even in less extreme cases you can easily break the economy. If the player gets merely 1,2 times as much gold as expected and again, half is supposed to be spent on equipment, the player now has 40% more gold to spend on consumables than you accounted for.
Also, let me add another conc, it's hard to wary the dungeons in length. Imagine you want the heroes to break into a mansion. A mansion is probably going to be smaller than a mine. However, can you make that mansion equally draining on resources? You could make then enemies there much tougher, but that can confuse the player and make him assume he's supposed to be stronger than he is.
True, but an arbitrary gold cap feels limiting and unfair. Limited inventory systems have worked well in the past: Earthbound is a shining example. The dungeons feel extremely hard because you only have room for 10 hamburgers and you have to save almost ALL of your PP just to take down the boss. It wasn't uncommon for me to venture in the first dungeon once or twice just to build a level or two and get enough cash to buy better hamburgers.
That being said, if you remove the necessity to restock on resources every time you head to town, where does all your gold go? On weapons and armor? Sidequests of some sort? In-battle-only-recovery items?
I've made several one-use in-combat items available for purchase in my game. They're very powerful, but they're limited by their one-time-usage and the fact that you can only use one item every three turns.
That being said, if you remove the necessity to restock on resources every time you head to town, where does all your gold go? On weapons and armor? Sidequests of some sort? In-battle-only-recovery items?
I've made several one-use in-combat items available for purchase in my game. They're very powerful, but they're limited by their one-time-usage and the fact that you can only use one item every three turns.
Crystalgate
694
post=154789
True, but an arbitrary gold cap feels limiting and unfair. Limited inventory systems have worked well in the past: Earthbound is a shining example. The dungeons feel extremely hard because you only have room for 10 hamburgers and you have to save almost ALL of your PP just to take down the boss. It wasn't uncommon for me to venture in the first dungeon once or twice just to build a level or two and get enough cash to buy better hamburgers.
That being said, if you remove the necessity to restock on resources every time you head to town, where does all your gold go? On weapons and armor? Sidequests of some sort? In-battle-only-recovery items?
I've made several one-use in-combat items available for purchase in my game. They're very powerful, but they're limited by their one-time-usage and the fact that you can only use one item every three turns.
I don't believe in a gold cap either, but there are ways to make the income more controlled. You could for example put most of the gold inside boss battles, chests and other one time only events. If you balance it so that the player is only expected to get 25% of his total income from random encounters, the player running around and fighting twice as many battles than expected only nets him 125% the expected gold. That solution does of course have it's disadvantages.
You can also employ a limited inventory. However, instead of giving the player limited inventory slots, I rather just lower the maximum quantity of each item from 99 to 10 or so. As long as the game doesn't feature dozens of different HP restoration items, the player will still be limited at the amount of healing he can pack. That means the player won't have to go trough the hassle of discarding one outdated item after another and replace them with new ones upon finding a better shop. I suppose that removes one strategic aspect, the player no longer has to choose between packing one extra antidote and one extra potion. I don't consider that extra strategic element to be worth the extra trouble though.
As for where the excess gold goes, equipment sounds nice. I don't see the need of being able to buy just about everything as soon as I enter a new town.
if you're a hardcore gamer, then it'll probably drive you mad. MAD!
only a few people will get that joke. and if you do, yes. i am talking about that pointy-eared ANNOYANCE.
only a few people will get that joke. and if you do, yes. i am talking about that pointy-eared ANNOYANCE.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In my upcoming RMXP game, I'm making full recovery happen after every battle. I'm also not including any random battles - or any repeatable battles. My basic premise is that I hate repetition. And so if a player has proven he or she can win this battle, he or she should not have to do it again.
So, what that means is that every single battle in the game is going to be different. In that the game is planned to be about the same length as a Final Fantasy game, this could prove a challenging rate to maintain, but at the same time it should provide me with enough diversity to keep battle design from ever getting stale. And also provide the player with enough diversity to keep battles from ever getting stale.
To address the other con, I still plan to have some resource management challenges. They'll just be very long battles where enemies continue appearing mid-battle. There won't be as many as in a game where every dungeon is a challenge of resource management, but that's fine, since I find this type of challenge much less enjoyable than fighting for my life.
I'm not yet sure if I'll have potions or other consumable items. I was thinking I would, until reading this topic. Now I'm not sure - since they're basically just a form of MP.
So, what that means is that every single battle in the game is going to be different. In that the game is planned to be about the same length as a Final Fantasy game, this could prove a challenging rate to maintain, but at the same time it should provide me with enough diversity to keep battle design from ever getting stale. And also provide the player with enough diversity to keep battles from ever getting stale.
To address the other con, I still plan to have some resource management challenges. They'll just be very long battles where enemies continue appearing mid-battle. There won't be as many as in a game where every dungeon is a challenge of resource management, but that's fine, since I find this type of challenge much less enjoyable than fighting for my life.
I'm not yet sure if I'll have potions or other consumable items. I was thinking I would, until reading this topic. Now I'm not sure - since they're basically just a form of MP.
Sanderf90
65
I'm all for realism in a game. And so for me it doesn't make that much sense that a character is healed immediatly after battle; In my game battles are pretty mainstream and so after each battle the player still has the losses he endured during it. To me it makes the game more challenging, and as the OP said, if you don't do that you need to add another challenge for the player to discover.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I disagree that it makes the game more challenging. In fact, it forces you to make the individual battles far less challenging, because the player has to be able to survive a dozen or more of them. With full recovery after every battle, I can make every single battle in the game a boss battle.
I don't see how it's any more or less realistic. In your game the player is going to be healing between battles too. It's just going to cost money. In my game, apparently the hero has a reusable first-aid kit that takes too much time to apply for it to be usable in the middle of a fight. Is that really less realistic than healing only with magical potions?
I don't see how it's any more or less realistic. In your game the player is going to be healing between battles too. It's just going to cost money. In my game, apparently the hero has a reusable first-aid kit that takes too much time to apply for it to be usable in the middle of a fight. Is that really less realistic than healing only with magical potions?
The main difference I can see between the two is where the fear lies.
When you are healed between battles, but the battles are tough, the fear lies in surviving each battle, but the dungeon itself is relatively calm, maybe even peaceful.
When you have to rely on items, MP, and other expendable resources, each battle is less threatening, but the dungeon as a whole is a scary place, where you can't afford to linger or goof off.
Now I'm curious... how do you make the dungeon threatening while healing between battles? It's probably very difficult. Remove the save points? You could, but most resource-dependent dungeons do this anyway, and assuming you were strong enough to make it to where you are, you should easily be able to make it back.
(That's where I was going when I thought about the Meal/Snack thing: A way to re-create impending doom in dungeons without having to make each battle easy)
When you are healed between battles, but the battles are tough, the fear lies in surviving each battle, but the dungeon itself is relatively calm, maybe even peaceful.
When you have to rely on items, MP, and other expendable resources, each battle is less threatening, but the dungeon as a whole is a scary place, where you can't afford to linger or goof off.
Now I'm curious... how do you make the dungeon threatening while healing between battles? It's probably very difficult. Remove the save points? You could, but most resource-dependent dungeons do this anyway, and assuming you were strong enough to make it to where you are, you should easily be able to make it back.
(That's where I was going when I thought about the Meal/Snack thing: A way to re-create impending doom in dungeons without having to make each battle easy)
