CRAZE HATES DUNGEON CRAWLING

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post=213151
What is a dungeon crawler then? Is it like Zelda only Zelda is an overworld dungeon crawler?

Dungeon crawlers are a sub-genre of RPGs. Usually entails moving through a dungeon, fighting lots of enemies, collecting treasure and often solving puzzles. I don't know if Zelda specifically qualifies since it's not really an RPG so to speak, but who knows.

Wikipedia has the answer.

I don't want to be a dick here since this is a bit of a derail but all newer Castlevanias have:
a giant dungeon
fighting lots of enemies
collecting treasure
puzzle solving
experience
equipment
items

Apart from the fact that you are looking at it from the side, how is Castlevania not an RPG or a dungeon crawler? By the strictest definition, I only view dungeon crawlers as things like Linley's Dungeon Crawl (which I like because it has graphics, albeit simple ones) and Abaddon and what have you. If you're going to expand the genre even a little, Castlevania fits the bill.

And why not emulate Castlevania? Of course, it'd be hard to emulate whip/sword/gun dash slide slide slide dash jump in a non-action RPG, but there are lots of merits elsewhere. Castlevanias usually have incredibly well thought out dungeon layouts, with the player finding himself back tracking through the same area over and over with new abilities.

If you're looking to apply these merits to a traditional dungeon crawler, just get rid of the mentality that lower=better. There is a fun niche where you struggle to make it to next set of stairs, but most games are helped by intelligent layouts. I have been playing a crazy amount of Batman: Arkham Asylum, and you backtrack like crazy in that. It never gets stale, though, because a) the level changes in small ways, forcing you to reevaluate strategy, b) you always have new tools when you backtrack, which unlocks new secrets and new side-areas (sometimes the next main area, as well) and c) introduces new enemies, usually requiring radically different tactics to defeat. These can all be applied to traditional RPGs and dungeon crawlers.

I also it when things are held tantalizingly out of reach. Oh, there is a chest across this pool of lava, how do I get it? Later on, I find these Lava-Immune Boots, and it all makes sense. I'm heading back across near that area, I'll make a detour and grab the chest. Suddenly, that backtracking seems worthwhile. If you go from A to B to C to D and then want to drive the player back to A, either have a new connection connect D to A or have lots of newly available detours to keep B and C from seeming pointless and boring.

Good level design saves a game that is driven by where you currently are crawling (ie, the dungeon). There is also nothing that says a dungeon crawler can't let you in on a story, either; maybe you aren't embroiled in a world-spanning geopolitical conflict, but that doesn't mean characters can't interact with each other in an interesting way.

If people compared dungeon crawlers to good platformers/adventure games, they could easily draw lots of parallels between the two. There are certainly differences, but it's the job of the designer to apply what works in any genre (an interesting playing field, likeable characters) to his current medium.

I love semantic fights. I wonder what the judicial books have to say about what constitutes a "dungeon crawler" legally..

1. No random encounters
2. Have puzzles every now and then

The dungeon crawler I liked was (and possibly only) SMT: Strange Journey. I have no idea why, it's just that fun. Maybe because there's a lot of things to discover, events, and "OOHHH I GET IT." moments on my side. It also helped that I saw one of my comrades asleep and I get to kick him awake and not just running around bored and solving block/switch puzzles :D

But crap that last dungeon...

Well this is an interesting topic.

I think ADOM has a lot of good examples for nifty dungeon-crawling(despite the lack the graphics): plenty of meaningful choices in character customization and lots skills/items/ways to deal with the problems you are presented with.

I mean, I kept dying haha.. But didn't mind one bit creating another character and trying again. It was fun.

Just because a game has dungeon crawling elements doesnt make it a dungeon crawler. Saying Castlevania is a dungeon crawler is just plain stupid. I'd say that dungeon crawlers are the games that usually start in a town and the story requires you to go into dungeons of increasing length with the idea that you will reach the end of that dungeon and have to go back to advance the story and have access to new dungeons. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Shiren the Wanderer, Diablo, Baldur's Gate, these are pure dungeon crawlers. The gameplay revolves around the dungeon crawler aspects.

Castlevania 1 on NES is a platformer, as the games evolved they took in new elements. First RPG elements, then huge maps to explore. Exploration doesn't automatically equal "dungeon crawling". I couldn't read this topic and not respond to that. Also, I wouldn't call Wizardry 7 a dungeon crawler. I'd call it a standard RPG. Most of the time was spent wandering around the overworld/towns. Not much time in dungeons and it didn't progress like a typical DC game.

Now to be on topic, I enjoy dungeon crawlers. Depends on the game system. On DS I played and enjoyed Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. In that game it was the innovative new take on the pokemon battle system. You know all the moves but they all had unique/different abilities, kinda like on the show. I sometimes catch the show and they do so much with the moves, which in the actual games are kinda boring. The level design in Pkmn Mystery Dungeon wasn't a concern, it was adequate. The reason I played is because it was "something new". Then that wore off and I stopped playing, but it was fun.

Now games like Baldur's Gate/Diablo, those are the best dungeon crawlers. The fighting is engaging, the character/equipment progression is robust, multiplayer aspect add's some fun, those games have good story/characters/dialogue, plenty of skills to upgrade. Sometimes bosses can be a let down, but the best part of DC games is exploration, pushing the boundary of that veil of shadow on the edge of the map. Difficulty is important too, it's gotta be hard. I want to feel like I'm surrounded, outnumbered, and have to use some kind of strategy to survive instead of just mashing attack until they all fall. Even dungeon crawlers can suffer from button mashing.

Constantly learning new abilities and gaining new items is key, I want to pick up things along the way. Not just learn one ability and rely on that to complete a dungeon where I get 1 new thing at the end to use all the way through the next dungeon.

Just because a game has dungeon crawling elements doesnt make it a dungeon crawler. Saying Castlevania is a dungeon crawler is just plain stupid. I'd say that dungeon crawlers are the games that usually start in a town and the story requires you to go into dungeons of increasing length with the idea that you will reach the end of that dungeon and have to go back to advance the story and have access to new dungeons. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Shiren the Wanderer, Diablo, Baldur's Gate, these are pure dungeon crawlers. The gameplay revolves around the dungeon crawler aspects.

Castlevania, Symphony of the Night is most likely what he meant and yes, it is a dungeon crawler.

Constantly learning new abilities and gaining new items is key,

Castlevania, SOTN has this. You constantly gain new equipment and abilities that allow you to access formerly un reachable areas.

I want to pick up things along the way. Not just learn one ability and rely on that to complete a dungeon where I get 1 new thing at the end to use all the way through the next dungeon.

Oh...

Wait, what?

Dungeon crawler with an escaped sex slave getting out of her captor's dungeon. She meets other escapees along the way... Japan beat us to it! Criminal Girls!

I meant any GBA castlevania or PS castlevania or DS.

Well that depends on what you exactly mean by "arguing".





Let's just start whacking each other in the head with one of Webster's specials.

"No, you can't backstab a book!" "But it has a spine!"

"..The backbone of the land! ... Unless it's an actual backbone, have you ever seen Malacath's realm? Nasty stuff."

SMT often goes the route of adjusting XP based on your level - the higher your level advantage, the weaker the payout. Keep moving forward to maintain your reward!