A QUESTION IN TERMS OF FAN GAMES.

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I don't really know where to put this as where this semi-arguement falls under, so I figured game design would be sort of make sense.

Ahem, let me first state that I don't like fan games, (unless they are really made well.) and there is a lot of fan games that I see that look like total crap. On my formspring, this individual showed me this and this was my response:

Random Individual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4DBHi0UDJw here it is. Tell me what you think. Thanks

The game from what I looked at is about LP'ers on youtube, annnnd that's it. Nothing else.

J-Man reply: Ugh, fan games, I don't like fan games, especially if there is not much effort put into the game.

It must have been a week later, and now I received this here reply:
Individual: Ok I'm going to say this nicest way possible...Fuck off. If your going to insult my work after I offer you something, then your a complete loser. And what you did is the worst insult possible, mocking me. Before you amount to anything in life, grow up.

And here is my reply
I want you to show your work to this site. www.rpgmaker.net, and you will get almost the similar reply as I did, if not worse. I'm only stating what I say, and I do not like fan games. If you can't take criticism, then I strongly suggest you stop making games.

I ask, was this the right decision in saying that? Because I looked at his video for like 3 minutes and I thought it was shit, do you all think the same thing or do you have some other opinion about this, how would you have handled the situation? Again, I apologize if this is in the wrong section of the forum. >>;
I think the problem was you assumed the guy wasn't putting much effort into the fangame at all. What if he's just not good at using the maker and just starting out? It doesn't mean he's not putting effort, he just lacks skill right now to make it look more professional or even decent. That's why he got incredibly offended.

What you said wasn't criticism at all actually, it was mostly an insult. You didn't say what's wrong with the game, you just said you hate fangames AND they are "usually" made without effort on the maker's part.

It's probably better to use some fan game to learn the program, and then make an original for when you got the hang of it.

The thing is, people like sharing what they achieved, etc. So I don't exactly blame him for youtube-ing it or something. In our age today, there's so many ways to share information and materials than back in our days. This is pretty much the norm. Even if we think it looks like shit, at least hey, the guy is learning the program, sharing what he achieved so far, up to him if he can get better at it OR stick with it till the end :s
That game in the video makes no sense whatsoever but if it's a one shot joke there's no real reason to put a large amount of work into something only a handful of people will get.

Personally I can't stand fangames. It doesn't really take that much more effort to come up with something original.
@Nessiah - Yeah, I was starting to get that feeling that I was saying something wrong, it felt more like an opinion than criticism, so I feel partly responsible for the individual for going insane on me.
Who wants to watch a battle scene at 8 fps? It's torture. And whats the fangame anyways?, looks like RTP to me. Using the names of popular characters isn't exactly a fangame. But I dunno, I don't what it's supposed to be so I can't gauge that.

Making a game isn't about how many people will play it, it's the experience of making something that counts. Even if nobody sees it, the developer learned some things(hopefully) and the next game should be better(hopefully). And it takes a great deal more effort to come up with something original that is good. Just about everything has been done already, its easy to find a comparable example of just about everything these days.

Saying you don't like fangames and writing them all off immediately is very close minded. Where does that judgment come from?
Did you see too many "bad fangames" and your just gonna write them all off?
Is it because you feel that the person is being unoriginal or stealing someone else's idea?

One could say, all RM(homemade amateur) games are terrible. I mean, most of them are crap right? There are tons of areas(music, movies, art...) that have mostly crap and you have to keep an eye out for the gems, not just write off the whole scene.

Making a fangame is just a tribute, in most cases. Good series have a rich background, history, folklore, and it's fun to use the ideas of that "universe" to make your own interpretation of it. It's true there are many bad fangames, but it's not bad because it's based off something else. It's bad because that person is probablly a terrible game maker and whatever game they make will be bad.

I will say this however...making a fangame where your game is EXACTLY like the original material is a bad idea.

I think it's just unfair to say "all fangames are terrible". Just like saying "all Muslims are terrorists", although I'm sure the ratios are a bit different.
Sure, there is a correlation between a game being bad and a game being a fan game, though what seemed to be the problem for that game wasn't an issue of whether it was fan game or not; it just looked bad, and this is the probably the case for most of your "dreaded fangames".

My point is, there is really no reason to hate a fangame if it hits all the right marks from a game design point of view, unless you hate the idea of a fan expressing his love for a particular media franchise.
post=J-Man
I don't really know where to put this as where this semi-arguement falls under, so I figured game design would be sort of make sense.

Ahem, let me first state that I don't like fan games, (unless they are really made well.) and there is a lot of fan games that I see that look like total crap. On my formspring, this individual showed me this and this was my response:

Random Individual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4DBHi0UDJw here it is. Tell me what you think. Thanks

The game from what I looked at is about LP'ers on youtube, annnnd that's it. Nothing else.

J-Man reply: Ugh, fan games, I don't like fan games, especially if there is not much effort put into the game.

It must have been a week later, and now I received this here reply:
Individual: Ok I'm going to say this nicest way possible...Fuck off. If your going to insult my work after I offer you something, then your a complete loser. And what you did is the worst insult possible, mocking me. Before you amount to anything in life, grow up.

And here is my reply
I want you to show your work to this site. www.rpgmaker.net, and you will get almost the similar reply as I did, if not worse. I'm only stating what I say, and I do not like fan games. If you can't take criticism, then I strongly suggest you stop making games.

I ask, was this the right decision in saying that? Because I looked at his video for like 3 minutes and I thought it was shit, do you all think the same thing or do you have some other opinion about this, how would you have handled the situation? Again, I apologize if this is in the wrong section of the forum. >>;


You were right in deciding that this was indeed, the remains of a digested digital meal squeezed into familiar shapes with a Play-Doh factory.

It's these kinds of people that need constructive destructive criticism the most.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
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Azura (Rodney)
Fitting how the exit option is "Meh.."

"Fuck off. If your going to insult my work after I offer you something, then your a complete loser. And what you did is the worst insult possible, mocking me. Before you amount to anything in life, grow up."

And J-Man, you've amounted to way more in life than he'll probably be.
post=Craze
Azura (Rodney)


This is one of the reasons, why I am a little annoyed... >>;
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
6003
post=WolfCoder
Fitting how the exit option is "Meh.."

"Fuck off. If your going to insult my work after I offer you something, then your a complete loser. And what you did is the worst insult possible, mocking me. Before you amount to anything in life, grow up."

And J-Man, you've amounted to way more in life than he'll probably be.


If he didn't want the work criticized, why did he ask you about it? You only ask people what they think of something if you want people who dislike it to tell you so. The game designer is a fool who has no business creating anything. There's nothing wrong with your telling people what you don't like about their games, especially if they specifically ask you to.

Besides, it's not like you actually insulted him, or even his game. You just said you didn't like the type of game (which is a neutral statement that says nothing good or bad about the game) and that he didn't put much effort into it (which is a blatantly true statement, and not necessarily a bad thing depending on his design philosophy). The dude needs to chill the fuck out.
The dude needs to chill the fuck out.
You guys act like this is the first bad rm game put on youtube. Please do not disturb the youtube rm garbage heap, i would like to browse it in peace.
Fan-games require much less effort in terms of ideas, since you're piggy-backing on another game and stealing from its entire story archive. However, coding everything to meet the standards of the game from which you're stealing is harder.

As with any game, or almost any form of art, the execution is more significant than the concept. For example, some might dislike the concept of somebody's fan-game, but perhaps that fan-game is the most well-made game in the entire community. I think fan-games are a good way to execute someone's first game, as well it would help him take baby-steps in the direction of story-writing and plot-designing for future game ideas.

But you're just plain unoriginal if you are making or made a Final Fantasy fan-game.
post=The_Ghostman
Fan-games require much less effort in terms of ideas, since you're piggy-backing on another game and stealing from its entire story archive. However, coding everything to meet the standards of the game from which you're stealing is harder.

As with any game, or almost any form of art, the execution is more significant than the concept. For example, some might dislike the concept of somebody's fan-game, but perhaps that fan-game is the most well-made game in the entire community. I think fan-games are a good way to execute someone's first game, as well it would help him take baby-steps in the direction of story-writing and plot-designing for future game ideas.

But you're just plain unoriginal if you are making or made a Final Fantasy fan-game.


Unoriginality aside, even if a game developer did have an awesome story or awesome characters or awesome ideas, if it's made poorly, then it's going to be a poor game. Execution isn't just more significant than the concept, execution is absolutely everything. I'd rather have an awesome game with a story and characters from a disney film than play a game that was poorly made.

Compare it to any other art form. An artist might have an awesome idea for a painting, or drawing, or whatever. But if he fails on execution, it will look sloppy, it won't look clean. A musician might have a great idea for a song, but if he can't compose, or even further, play the song, then it'll be terrible. Even if it's a poppy hook with a typical verse-chorus structure, it can still be a good song.


More on point, the link provided in the OP was a pretty horrible looking game. The kid who made it needs to chill out and accept criticism a bit better. But to dismiss a game entirely because you have the preconception that a fangame is inherently bad is poor reasoning. Try playing NigSek, A Monster's Tail, a fine example of a fangame done very well (albeit somewhat buggy from what I hear).
I have less respect for someone who steals a game's story, and therefore less motivation to play the game. Everything adds up.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
6003
post=The_Ghostman
I have less respect for someone who steals a game's story, and therefore less motivation to play the game. Everything adds up.


In the long run I don't think this is any more significant than using resources you've ripped from commercial games or using scripts you've downloaded from the internet. People who can't draw steal art; people who can't compose steal music; people who can't code steal scripts; people who can't write steal stories.

Writing seems inherently easier to those of us who can write, or to those of us who are used to accepting shitty writing in games. But even if it really is easier, does that mean people who write an original story but rip commercial music and graphics have more of an excuse for their theft? Or does that mean people who steal a story but make their own graphics and write their own code put in *more* effort, and thus deserve more respect? You could make both arguments.

Obviously the most respect and most effort would come from doing everything yourself from scratch, but not many of us are willing to do that.
post=Darken
You guys act like this is the first bad rm game put on youtube. Please do not disturb the youtube rm garbage heap, i would like to browse it in peace.
Would you believe that most of that racket is associated with me? I'm kind of ashamed.

And to Locke, stolen material is stolen material; you hit the nail right on the head.
Well I do think stealing is lame, BUT stealing is doing fangames wrong.

To say that, fan content in general is usually discriminated because a majority of ppl do it wrong: The point of fan content ofered to others is to add something new related to content rather than just redo it.

That is why fanart is less discriminated. Same goes for when ppl do adaptions of something in other media. Problem is that a lot of ppl wants to make a fangame of a game and to add content to that, you must be original somewhere anyway, otherwise your game will be just a poor version of the original, however there is the opposite: when ppl go all original and slap a famous game name on their tittles for whatever retarded reason or pure fan devotion or lack of appreciation for their own work... example: Final Fantasy fangames not related to a particular final fantasy game.

ABut back to diference between stealing and adding, I once made a first chapter manga adaption of FF6, if anyone is interested I can post it somwhere. I went through a lot of research because I wanted to offer something interesting to FF6 fans and to those who didn´t know or even didn´t like the game - funny cause the idea came from a friend who disliked FF6 for being too old looking (pixels) and she dared me to make a manga which could change her impression and make her play the game - and she ended up playing it afterwards. I won´t say the thing was awesome since I am way better at pixels than hand drawing, but with my research on both game artworks, the game itself and using the game story I still had to draw everything and basically write a whole script since game and comic are different languages.

Anyone can criticise the resulting work and I will consider what is said, but I´d be very pissed if anyone dismissed my effort, I think it was harder to pull it off than some of my original stories.

But on to fangames of games: You can always go with spin offs, parallel stories, prequels or sequels, as long as you don´t make your game be just a reapeat of the original story (like: villain was revived and heroes went to defeat him AGAIN).

You can use the same setting and systems but tell a story from someone else´s view, like a cool NPC. A cool example: Think of a game focused entirely on General Leo from FF6. Or maybe some random guy.

Or go like FF tactics did where Delita was marked as a hero, but someone else did other stuff that enabled him to be there so you can create a party who actually supported the main cast of your favourite rog behind the scenes and tell their story.

Fangames don´t kill ppl, people kill fangames with lack of new content. If you want to make a fangame, the simple question here is: What can I offer that the original game can´t Why anyone would play my game rather than replay the original?
UPRC
Exciting, but ultimately pointless.
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post=Link_2112
Making a fangame is just a tribute, in most cases. Good series have a rich background, history, folklore, and it's fun to use the ideas of that "universe" to make your own interpretation of it. It's true there are many bad fangames, but it's not bad because it's based off something else. It's bad because that person is probablly a terrible game maker and whatever game they make will be bad.

Bingo, that's why I'm working on one that... I swear I'll finish one of these days.

I find, as someone who is working on a fangame, that it's also a neat way for the creator to relive their own fond memories of whatever their game is based on. Mine is based on the 8 bit and 16 bit Final Fantasy games, and I label my fangame as a tribute to them. Almost everything in it is inspired by something that I'm nostalgic over. I just run with that and hope that, hey, somebody else will maybe feel the same nostalgia.

Fangames aren't for broad audiences, so it really is a little silly for one who does not like fangames to go and condemn one, regardless of the quality of it. I say just leave fangame makers to do their own thing, which is aiming to please the very distinct crowd of people who enjoy playing fangames.
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