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LET'S EXAMINE: A LOOK AT WHAT MAKES GAMES GREAT (OR NOT)
Posts
WolfCoder
3554
WolfCoder
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CloseA difficulty curve doesn't have to start at an insultingly basic level.
Yes it does.
I want to stress this very hard as this is the most common problem I encounter with amateur games, you start the game and then you just die. Then you move on to a game that wasn't so badly designed.
Everyone's playing your game for the first time so it's pretty hard to design with that in mind after having seen your own game a zillion times. This is also why testing is important with other people.
You know that cheesy line "Easy to pick up difficult to master?" Well there's a reason it's an overused line.
Back then, you would want to make a game that could eat quarters, was short but challenging. Though lots of them were still easier than the beginning of Cave Story. Now I'm not one of those let's-make-games-all-casually-easy people, what I'm saying is that you want to let the player get far into your game before you start kicking their ass. The further into a game a player is, the more likely they're going to torture themselves trying to beat it.
You've succeeded when they at least played most of your game and enjoyed it- but it doesn't say anything about them being able to beat it.
Jericho
52
Cave Story is pretty basic to begin with, to be honest. Yes, it can be tricky, but that's why recharge stations and savepoints are frequent.
But I disagree on your point that games have to be "insultingly basic" to start off with. It's rather irritating when a game treats me like I've never played a game before.
But I disagree on your point that games have to be "insultingly basic" to start off with. It's rather irritating when a game treats me like I've never played a game before.
WolfCoder
3554
But I disagree on your point that games have to be "insultingly basic" to start off with. It's rather irritating when a game treats me like I've never played a game before.
But it's still required of in a game. The people who actually voice their opinion at all are on the sides of the spectrum of gamers. And every game is someone's first game, or don't forget, first kind of game. There's still games out there of a type we have not played.
You're allowed to make exceptions of course. You can assume the player knows how to turn their system on and what the A button is. Also, if you're making an RPG Maker game and use any of the built-in stuff, you don't have to explain all the controls or system. I know Z and X and the arrow keys, you need only ease the player into your custom systems for these kinds of games.
But for Cave Story, the problem was actually not the difficulty itself, it was the difficulty ramp. I just didn't feel like each next area was fresh enough and turned up the heat so it got interesting again. Remember, I was able to make it through most of the game. And then I got to the end and I just decided to give it a rest and play something more engaging.
cho
0
Cave Story was hard?
(well alright, the final cave and the optional area, but aside from that where was it ever difficult)
(also i feel like it ramped up pretty well toward the final cave, that was just where it crossed the threshold to being actually challenging)
(games shouldn't start out insultingly easy)
(well alright, the final cave and the optional area, but aside from that where was it ever difficult)
(also i feel like it ramped up pretty well toward the final cave, that was just where it crossed the threshold to being actually challenging)
(games shouldn't start out insultingly easy)
Wolfcoder, can you please make this a separate discussion? You know how much I love you posting in my topics. =*
Jericho
52
Full credit goes to Quovak of the SA forums. Go read his fantastic Golden Sun LP~
To me, Chrono Trigger is still the gold standard of how to design an RPG, and one of the many things it gets right is how to set up game progression. The end goal (Defeat Lavos) is very far off, so you're constantly forced into sub-goals. These work because they're clearly connected to the main quest so they don't feel like filler but are also sufficiently stand-alone to the point that it's easy to keep track of what you're doing and why. That way, you always have some progression like this:
Ultimate Goal: Defeat Lavos
How: By defeating Magus before he can summon Lavos
How Lv. 2: By recruiting Frog to fight Magus
How Lv. 3: By restoring the Masamune for Frog to wield
How Lv. 4: By getting dreamstone from the past to mend the Masamune
Complication: In the past, Azala and the Reptites steal your Gate Key, stranding you there.
Current Goal: Go after Azala and the Reptites.
Going after Reptites is incredibly detached from fighting Magus, but the progression feels natural. You know full well why your characters have to do each step, you can track the logic of the game, and hunting down Azala seems like an integral part of defeating Lavos rather than something the developers threw in as padding. This is an example of how to handle progression well.
Compare this to Golden Sun. A mere minute after you get your goal you're forced to get sidetracked and it isn't even remotely clear why. If you try to go ahead, you'll see the path blocked by ivy, but not only is this a poor obstacle logically (you really can't burn or cut it?), it doesn't give you any clue about what you're looking for. The only reason to go to Vault is because Camelot put it right in your path, but that's a terribly unsatisfying and incredibly artificial motive. If I were Chrono, I would chase after Azala; if I were Isaac, I would borrow some hedge clippers and ignore Ivan and the thieves entirely.
WolfCoder
3554
author=Craze
Wolfcoder, can you please make this a separate discussion? You know how much I love you posting in my topics. =*
I know how much you love me love you posting in your topics
Compare this to Golden Sun. A mere minute after you get your goal you're forced to get sidetracked and it isn't even remotely clear why. If you try to go ahead, you'll see the path blocked by ivy, but not only is this a poor obstacle logically (you really can't burn or cut it?), it doesn't give you any clue about what you're looking for. The only reason to go to Vault is because Camelot put it right in your path, but that's a terribly unsatisfying and incredibly artificial motive. If I were Chrono, I would chase after Azala; if I were Isaac, I would borrow some hedge clippers and ignore Ivan and the thieves entirely.
Yeah, get this, you have to whirlwind the ivy away. What the hell? From playing Legend of Zelda so much, my first intention was to slash at the ivy with my sword. If there was an ivy covered wall in that game you'd slash it.
I wouldn't rip on Golden Sun too much though, the second game had some of the longest and best designed dungeons I've been through.
http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/7186/
Re: Super Mario World, I decided to just LP/Fail it but I tucked in a good deal of design commentary.
Re: Super Mario World, I decided to just LP/Fail it but I tucked in a good deal of design commentary.
