THE PERFECT DEBATE

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I am someone who takes pride in his logic and debatorial aptitatatude.

Debate is something most people don't seem to understand very well. Arguably just as important as the substance of what you debate is how you debate and construct logic.

the commoners.These people will argue without intellectual honesty or logic. They invoke Godwin's law, throw ad hominems, and construct strawmen. Even very intelligent people will erect fortresses of faulty logic, mere playthings for my immense brain. Even if you win a debate with poor logic, all you are doing is spreading misinformation, and thereby hurting the world.

My proposal, vampiredudes.org, is that we train this community to debate properly. The first round of Perfect Debate is here. By the end of this training session, you will be able to spot any logical fallacy thrown at you. At the end of this post, I will reveal our first debate topic.

Keep in mind, participants, that you are paying foremost attention to HOW the topic is being debated, not the substance. If someone makes a logically incoherent point, it is your sworn DUTY to call them out on it and alert the people why the argument was unsound. Hopefully, everyone will take time to peruse their own posts to make sure no faulty argument is made. If not, I have faith that the other fair denizens of this website will call you out.











Now then, the debate begins. Who would win in a fight between these two participants:

Goku from near the end of DBZ
Silver Age Superman


I posit that Goku can easily acquire a piece of kryptonite using his Instant Transmission technique, bringing the fight to a quick end. Additionally, Goku's ki blasts may very well be a form of magic, another of Superman's weaknesses.
LEECH
who am i and how did i get in here
2599
Goku, as jericho said, he has INSTANT TRANSMISSION* plus he is extremely experianced at fighting aliens and well... superman is ALIEN**!


*Scuse my caps.
**ALIENS ARE ATTACKING!
I do not believe that the "Goku fights aliens" point is a fair one. Superman has just as much, if not more, experience fighting aliens.

Out of curiousity and in interest of propelling the debate forward, Goku supporters, how do you respond to the fact that Superman has the ability to travel back through time? Would such an ability not bring the fight to an end before it even started? How would Goku counter such a maneuver?
LEECH
who am i and how did i get in here
2599
author=Jericho
I do not believe that the "Goku fights aliens" point is a fair one. Superman has just as much, if not more, experience fighting aliens.

Out of curiousity and in interest of propelling the debate forward, Goku supporters, how do you respond to the fact that Superman has the ability to travel back through time? Would such an ability not bring the fight to an end before it even started? How would Goku counter such a maneuver?

Superman can travel back in time? Really? Thats just... unfair.


WAIT WAIT WAIT. Goku has the dragons balls (lol) so he can just wish that kryptonite appears inside supermans body/ass. Goku is winner. (Why am i going for goku.... i hate DBZ)

Goku may "have" the dragonballs, in a sense, but he must first collect them. Using the dragon radar, he can certainly find them quickly, but is he fast enough to stop Superman before he goes back in time by traveling around the Earth?

Additionally, I made a logical error in my first statement. I apologize. Goku may have the ability to acquire kryptonite, but this is only if he knows of Superman's weakness to it. Knowing Goku, I find it unlikely that he would be able to discover such a weakness at all, let alone throw away his pride and use the dragonballs to exploit that weakness.
Are we talking about the back in the day Superman who was so powerful the writers literally had to write in a universe shattering event that affected all of DC Comics and the storylines of all their characters just to tone him down?

Yeah. Goku ain't touching that shit. If we're talking the same Superman who's as fast as light and can punch planets out of orbit, he could smash Goku's head like a melon before the neurons even fired in his brain for his eyes to even process seeing Superman.

Pre-Crisis Superman was insanely powerful. People who think Superman's powers are just 'run really fast/punch really hard/fly/eye beams' have missed the boat by miles. Especially since the current Superboy is even more powerful, able to punch holes in reality and be in several places at once/snuff out galaxies/all that shit. Also he's literally insane.
<Jericho> you misunderstand. the first debate is never perfect.
<Jericho > we must work from the ground up using the goku vs. superman problem as a means to identify logical fallacies and bad arguments
<Jericho> only then can we begin the true debate: smurfs vs. snorks

oh dear run
The current superman has no relevance here. This is Silver-Age superman. Please do not tamper this debate by injecting unrelated material.

While Superman may indeed have the ability to fly as fast as light, I believe that it is canon that Goku is faster, considering one of his weakest opponents, Raditz, was described as being "faster than the speed of light." Furthermore, Goku is a very skilled martial artist, much more so than Superman. Even if their speeds were only equal, I find it hard to believe that Superman would have the technique required to counter the onslaught of Son Goku.

Additionally, Superman may indeed be strong, but Goku's strength is nothing to sneeze at. He may have never punched planets out of orbit, but considering he was able to pierce the legendary Hirudegarn with his dragon fist technique, I see no reason to believe he could not have. Indeed, a situation that would merit such a strategy has never occured.
author=Jericho
The current superman has no relevance here. This is Silver-Age superman. Please do not tamper this debate by injecting unrelated material.

While Superman may indeed have the ability to fly as fast as light, I believe that it is canon that Goku is faster, considering one of his weakest opponents, Raditz, was described as being "faster than the speed of light." Furthermore, Goku is a very skilled martial artist, much more so than Superman. Even if their speeds were only equal, I find it hard to believe that Superman would have the technique required to counter the onslaught of Son Goku.

Additionally, Superman may indeed be strong, but Goku's strength is nothing to sneeze at. He may have never punched planets out of orbit, but considering he was able to pierce the legendary Hirudegarn with his dragon fist technique, I see no reason to believe he could not have. Indeed, a situation that would merit such a strategy has never occured.


I am talking about Silver Age Superman, the one they had to tone down via Crisis of Infine Earths. I mentioned the current era Superboy (an entirely different person) as a tidbit for the readers.

I've never heard of Raditz being faster than light. If so, I immediately doubt that claim was ever stated in the original Japanese adaptation. DBZ is notorious for having concepts being changed around considerably in translations. Technique is pretty irrelevant to Superman when he's strong enough to incapacitate you in one solid hit.

Also he's pretty much physically invulnerable as far as I remember Silver Age Superman being.
Piccolo remarks that Raditz would have to be faster than the speed of light to dodge the makankōsappō in both the english dub and original japanese version. If you do not believe that Piccolo accurately understands the properties of a technique he spent years developing (a dubious claim, at best) I can show you proof that his "special beam cannon" is indeed at least as fast as the speed of light.

With that in mind, considering how Goku's power level at the end of DBZ is many orders of magnitude greater than his inept brother's at the start of the series, we have to wonder: Could Superman even touch him and "incapacitate him in one solid hit" as you say?

I posit that Goku is just as "physically invulnerable" as Superman, if not more so. Goku, as we all know, fights only those who are at least on par with him. Superman has not even encountered a being of Goku's strength, so it is unknown just how far his invulnerability would take him.
Superman has not even encountered a being of Goku's strength, so it is unknown just how far his invulnerability would take him.


Doomsday.
Oh yeah, sidebar for those who are interested; Doomsday could kill Goku, and anyone else in the DBZ universe. Or anyone else, period, really. Doomsday's entire 'powers' are being able to revive from the dead (indefinitely) with whatever powers are necessary to kill whatever killed him in the first place. He's pretty much a character the writers don't like to use because there isn't much you can do with a character that's effectively immortal that can kill what kills it, over and over again no matter what.
First of all, Doomsday first appeared in 1992, well after the Silver-Age was over.
But I will entertain you.
If you would claim that Doomsday possesses the raw strength of Goku, then I would demand some evidence to support such a claim. He may indeed be able to revive himself from the dead, but may I remind you that the Z-Fighters have experience destroying a being of similar regenerative capabilities?



That said, Doomsday is irrelevant. Silver-Age Superman did not fight him.
KingArthur
( ̄▽ ̄)ノ De-facto operator of the unofficial RMN IRC channel.
1219
I stand behind Superman. He is the hero of superheroes, the gleaming star in many a kid's eyes and hearts, the last shining ray of hope in the darkest of days, the badass nostalgic figure of justice for many generations. He is the hero in all of us: He is Superman.
Goku is just as much a hero as Superman, having saved the universe many times. Such illogical pathos is unbecoming of a perfect debater, and I would advise you to abandon that line of thinking.
tardis
is it too late for ironhide facepalm
285
hey folks, this is no time for fantasizing. we live in a time where this shit is as real as it gets.

why are we pissing all over each other about superheroes with these far-fetched superpowers?

what happened to being a self-made man!? a true hero? what happened to heroes that, against all odds, found a way to help without the aid of mutation or special gifts aside from their own goddamn intuition?

i guess what i'm really asking here is...

iron man vs batman?

more than that.

tony stark vs bruce wayne.
Can't train people to be intelligent with their thoughts or words. Either they have the sense or they don't. It's best to just dodge them.

I wish I could participate in this but I am possibly the only person on the planet that can't stand anything Dragon Ball.
as i recall goku deliberately surrendered to perfect cell, the jury's out on whether he actually had the ability to defeat him. not a good comparison to make
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