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EQUIPMENT VS. LEVELING
Posts
stoodyhoo
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CloseSpecifically, which method do you prefer to use in order to bolster the strength of your character('s)?
A few pro's and cons of both:
Equipment Pros
- Encourages exploration
- Easier to "fix" battles
- Less grind required
Equipment Cons
- Player has to rely on finding new equipment to get stronger
- Less grind required (for those who like to see their characters get stronger after battles)
Leveling Pros
- Lets the player get stronger when they choose/need to
- Gives more incentive to battle
Leveling Cons
- May cause over-leveling, making the game easier than developer intended
- Somewhat diminishes the value of equipment
That's just to get started. Discuss.
A few pro's and cons of both:
Equipment Pros
- Encourages exploration
- Easier to "fix" battles
- Less grind required
Equipment Cons
- Player has to rely on finding new equipment to get stronger
- Less grind required (for those who like to see their characters get stronger after battles)
Leveling Pros
- Lets the player get stronger when they choose/need to
- Gives more incentive to battle
Leveling Cons
- May cause over-leveling, making the game easier than developer intended
- Somewhat diminishes the value of equipment
That's just to get started. Discuss.
I think Final Fantasy VI is a prime example of a game where equipment rules the roost. Considering that you you can beat the game at starting levels with the right equipment speaks for itself. Finding awesome equipment is pretty rad and its fun to mix and match and find killer setups, but in a longer game, a gradual progression of power, such as leveling (or some sort of point raising, collecting, or distributing) is necessary in most gameplay paradigms to establish linear growth.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7452
I'm finding myself leaning more towards equipment than leveling, but both have their benefits. Equipment for those who already have enough currency to buy just enough to give them an edge, and leveling to raise base stats (mainly HP/MP as equipment hardly ever affects those), all the while earning currency from combat to purchase items/equipment necessary for the quest.
Lennon
88
I haven't looked at this stuff in Neo Lescia for a long time, but the way things are, Leveling only boosts your HP and MP. Everything Else is decided by equipment. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not, but that's what I chose.
I generally prefer equipment based systems. Like Feld said, it's fun to collect and create new equipment, and find combos and stuff like that.
I generally prefer equipment based systems. Like Feld said, it's fun to collect and create new equipment, and find combos and stuff like that.
equiiiiiipment
You can make it a reward for clearing dungeons, completing quests, or killing bosses specific to said achievement so it isn't as generic as EXP->Level. Given the appropriate distribution you can also grind for new gear for those people who like to power up that way. Altima (Xtreme) has all the expensive gear available in towns right away (although accessing some of those towns requires transportation). if the player wants they can focus on getting enough cash to purchase better equipment at all times thoughout the game instead of hitting the limit for their current progression through the game. Hit the level cap but need some more oomph? Hit the market and spend your cash! I'm trying to balance the purchasable items, unique drops/finds, and income so that even right up to the end of the game there will be something worthwhile spending cash on instead of having more money than God sitting in your inventory bank. Levels are just for small across the board stat boosts and character skills (which are generally more important than the stat increases gained by levels/equipment)
You can make it a reward for clearing dungeons, completing quests, or killing bosses specific to said achievement so it isn't as generic as EXP->Level. Given the appropriate distribution you can also grind for new gear for those people who like to power up that way. Altima (Xtreme) has all the expensive gear available in towns right away (although accessing some of those towns requires transportation). if the player wants they can focus on getting enough cash to purchase better equipment at all times thoughout the game instead of hitting the limit for their current progression through the game. Hit the level cap but need some more oomph? Hit the market and spend your cash! I'm trying to balance the purchasable items, unique drops/finds, and income so that even right up to the end of the game there will be something worthwhile spending cash on instead of having more money than God sitting in your inventory bank. Levels are just for small across the board stat boosts and character skills (which are generally more important than the stat increases gained by levels/equipment)
TheNecromancer
3160
Games like Diablo and Balder's Gate do a good job of mixing the two. You gain levels to increase your stats a bit but more importantly to get points for you skill tree. Your main power comes from the stats/abilities of your gear.
Pokemaniac
3559
Well, both need to be balanced together, or characters will quickly lose their defining characteristics. For instance, if one character is meant to have higher defense than another, if through the whole game one has 10 defense and the other has 5 defense, and by mid/end game they can both wear armor that adds 50 defense, the difference between the two defense stats would be proportionately smaller(and a lot smaller). If both characters level, they can keep their stats roughly in proportion(or, even if the gap is meant to narrow, it won't be such a sharp effect).
Equipment stats on the other hand are good for customization/collection. You smile when you find a better helmet, admit it.
Equipment stats on the other hand are good for customization/collection. You smile when you find a better helmet, admit it.
author=Pokemaniac
Well, both need to be balanced together, or characters will quickly lose their defining characteristics.
Agreed, but I believe that your example is easily avoidable.
author=Lennon
I haven't looked at this stuff in Neo Lescia for a long time, but the way things are, Leveling only boosts your HP and MP.
This is generally what I'm leaning towards myself, although leveling will slightly raise other statistics (such as ATK, DEF, etc...), but equipment will be the main increase for those statistics.
Actually I love equipment that affect Hp/Mp, resistances / etc. Instead of raising def/ attack. I like weapons that change the attack formula (such as attacking twice / attacking all foes / somehow attack using DEF + ATK,e tc.), yet that don't change the stats so much. As in, barehanded you have ATK: 05 / DEF: 01. With the Buckler Glove, you've got ATK:05 / DEF:02, effectiveness of ATK in damage formula, while wearing bucklers, is ATK+DEF*0,5, wich would certainly raise you attack by a good ammount, while raising your defense and leaving your base attack almost entirely to level. This is a rather radical example, but I hope you got the twist. Also, it's impossible in 2k / 2k3, I guess... But, then again, you've also got "ignore defense", statuses, many many other ways to create an "alternate" attacking. Even if you equip a fleuret wich raises your attack from 998 to 999, if it has the "piercing" attribute, it can be a strong weapon. Umm... Sorry if I couldn't communicate my ideas right, I'm confusing. xD
Anyways. That's just me, tough. I love seeing my characters grow in status.
Anyways. That's just me, tough. I love seeing my characters grow in status.
Equipment, especially if it's paired with an equipment crafting system.
Level would just raise your stats and give you new skills; equipment can raise stats and give skills just like level, but can also give elemental affinities, resistance to states and other exotic properties like increasing the exp gained or gold earned in battle.
Level would just raise your stats and give you new skills; equipment can raise stats and give skills just like level, but can also give elemental affinities, resistance to states and other exotic properties like increasing the exp gained or gold earned in battle.
EnderX
562
Between the two, equipment.
I'm probably going to stick with the traditional 'level' mechanism for a couple of things, but the development idea I'm working with would mean that a level 99 chara would have the same stats as a level 1, all things considered; stat boosts and skills are bought with the exp separately from the level mechanism. (May use level as a threshold for some purchases.) Equipment will still function semi-normally though.
I'm probably going to stick with the traditional 'level' mechanism for a couple of things, but the development idea I'm working with would mean that a level 99 chara would have the same stats as a level 1, all things considered; stat boosts and skills are bought with the exp separately from the level mechanism. (May use level as a threshold for some purchases.) Equipment will still function semi-normally though.
author=EnderX
Between the two, equipment.
I'm probably going to stick with the traditional 'level' mechanism for a couple of things, but the development idea I'm working with would mean that a level 99 chara would have the same stats as a level 1, all things considered; stat boosts and skills are bought with the exp separately from the level mechanism. (May use level as a threshold for some purchases.) Equipment will still function semi-normally though.
That sounds hard...
I prefer a balance of both equipment and leveling because then you can become very powerful(usually)and still be able to function if you lose equipment(like an event where you lose weapons probably) or still have just enough power with main weapons,but i like the idea of no levels and equipment is essential.
I found out a long time ago that you need to have either really good equipment stats or really bad level stats. Otherwise equipment becomes pointless.
author=JosephSeraphFFT
Actually I love equipment that affect Hp/Mp, resistances / etc. Instead of raising def/ attack.
I like that too. FFT's armor is actually worthwhile, since in the majority of JRPGs, the DEF stat is highly marginalized by various factors, but HP is *always* highly important.
Shinan
4314
I first thought that maybe I liked equipment. And thinking of a non-progression or very little progression game. But then I remembered how much I love it when there's a ding and a little popup saying "level up".
I mean one of the most fun in computer RPGs is when you level up and distribute those skill points or whateverpoints you get. Of course it doesn't matter how or what you level up. It's equally satisfying when you level up a skill (by using it lots) or when you level up a weapon (by killing lots with it) or whatever else there is to level up.
Just equipping a new better weapon is kind of boring isn't it. And you're stuck with whatever points the weapon gives you rather than the "distribute your skill points you piece of awesome you".
I mean one of the most fun in computer RPGs is when you level up and distribute those skill points or whateverpoints you get. Of course it doesn't matter how or what you level up. It's equally satisfying when you level up a skill (by using it lots) or when you level up a weapon (by killing lots with it) or whatever else there is to level up.
Just equipping a new better weapon is kind of boring isn't it. And you're stuck with whatever points the weapon gives you rather than the "distribute your skill points you piece of awesome you".
EnderX
562
author=mrstinkyfeet
That sounds hard...
I prefer a balance of both equipment and leveling because then you can become very powerful(usually)and still be able to function if you lose equipment(like an event where you lose weapons probably) or still have just enough power with main weapons,but i like the idea of no levels and equipment is essential.
I realized looking at this that I may not have made myself quite clear. Earning a level would still take a certain amount of Experience, as normal. That experience would then be used for 'training', to purchase skills, special abilities, and stat boosts. If I figure it out correctly, then there's no reason a 'normal' leveling sequence couldn't be bought by someone who wanted to do it that way. However, it's also possible to allocate all of those points toward skills and abilities, leaving the L99 character with a large action set, but the same stats he had as an L1 character. (Or, on the 'I really need to balance this right or else' end, a character with maxed out stats, but almost no skills or abilities.)
Weapons and armor, on the other hand, do as Shinan said and allocate a specific amount of points to their (the equipment's) natural stats without the character having to spend for them. (Although even that can be 'bought up' - abilities exist that would, for example, -> 'Sword +10%: Gains an extra 10% to weapon attack from equipping a sword.')
author=EnderXauthor=mrstinkyfeetI realized looking at this that I may not have made myself quite clear. Earning a level would still take a certain amount of Experience, as normal. That experience would then be used for 'training', to purchase skills, special abilities, and stat boosts. If I figure it out correctly, then there's no reason a 'normal' leveling sequence couldn't be bought by someone who wanted to do it that way. However, it's also possible to allocate all of those points toward skills and abilities, leaving the L99 character with a large action set, but the same stats he had as an L1 character. (Or, on the 'I really need to balance this right or else' end, a character with maxed out stats, but almost no skills or abilities.)
That sounds hard...
I prefer a balance of both equipment and leveling because then you can become very powerful(usually)and still be able to function if you lose equipment(like an event where you lose weapons probably) or still have just enough power with main weapons,but i like the idea of no levels and equipment is essential.
Weapons and armor, on the other hand, do as Shinan said and allocate a specific amount of points to their (the equipment's) natural stats without the character having to spend for them. (Although even that can be 'bought up' - abilities exist that would, for example, -> 'Sword +10%: Gains an extra 10% to weapon attack from equipping a sword.')
Now I understand it, yet it still looks hard
If you're concerned about leveling diminishing equipment, there're lots of ways to get around that.
Equipment as secondary stats: Look at Final Fantasy. Characters usually have Strength and Magic(k), but their weapon determines their Attack - that axe might raise Strength by a point or two, but nothing major. Defenses and evasion rates are determined solely or mostly by equipment, and critical rates might be a combination of a character's weapon and an inherent stat. Basically, inherent traits and equipment compliment each other instead of stacking Dragon Quest-style. (Note: DQ has Attack and Strength; Attack is simply Strength + Weapon's Attack. Attack is used to calculate damage, but not Strength.)
Equipment as specific boosts: Look partially at Final Fantasy X (pretend that its weapons don't increase stats). Your weapon doesn't raise your damage directly, it gives your attacks a 30% chance to inflict Poison. Your shield doesn't grant evasion universally, it gives you a 50% chance to evade fire and raises your ice damage output by 10%. Your helm doesn't raise your magic defense, it grants a 70% chance to resist Silence while making you 20% more susceptible to magic damage. Get the picture?
Equipment as skillset: Instead of granting you additional damage, that spear gives you +5% chance to crit and lets you use Judgement and Perfect Pierce. That axe does raise damage by 10% though, and you can use Brutal Swipe and Axe Shield. A different axe might give you Axe Shield and Necrocrusher, changing all of your physical damage to Dark damage.
Equipment as secondary stats: Look at Final Fantasy. Characters usually have Strength and Magic(k), but their weapon determines their Attack - that axe might raise Strength by a point or two, but nothing major. Defenses and evasion rates are determined solely or mostly by equipment, and critical rates might be a combination of a character's weapon and an inherent stat. Basically, inherent traits and equipment compliment each other instead of stacking Dragon Quest-style. (Note: DQ has Attack and Strength; Attack is simply Strength + Weapon's Attack. Attack is used to calculate damage, but not Strength.)
Equipment as specific boosts: Look partially at Final Fantasy X (pretend that its weapons don't increase stats). Your weapon doesn't raise your damage directly, it gives your attacks a 30% chance to inflict Poison. Your shield doesn't grant evasion universally, it gives you a 50% chance to evade fire and raises your ice damage output by 10%. Your helm doesn't raise your magic defense, it grants a 70% chance to resist Silence while making you 20% more susceptible to magic damage. Get the picture?
Equipment as skillset: Instead of granting you additional damage, that spear gives you +5% chance to crit and lets you use Judgement and Perfect Pierce. That axe does raise damage by 10% though, and you can use Brutal Swipe and Axe Shield. A different axe might give you Axe Shield and Necrocrusher, changing all of your physical damage to Dark damage.
