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REFERENCES IN GAEMS
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CloseHow does everyone feel about references in games? I'm talking anything, references or allusions to literature, music/lyrics from songs, art, other games, other RM projects (I've seen that a fair bit). Do you guys see it as a homage or a cheap shot at trying to be clever?
Personally I tend to always be leaning toward wanting to include more and more subtle and not-so-subtle references or allusions to things into my projects (I guess fan games are one giant homage and are full of references and/or allusions to other games). It just feels like an easy yet effective way to create a feeling of narrative depth in an otherwise pretty "pulled out of your ass" storyline or theme.
I suppose it could come across as amateurish but we are, afterall, amateurs here.
Whaddya think?
Personally I tend to always be leaning toward wanting to include more and more subtle and not-so-subtle references or allusions to things into my projects (I guess fan games are one giant homage and are full of references and/or allusions to other games). It just feels like an easy yet effective way to create a feeling of narrative depth in an otherwise pretty "pulled out of your ass" storyline or theme.
I suppose it could come across as amateurish but we are, afterall, amateurs here.
Whaddya think?
Shinan
4314
Depends on the setting and mood. In a light-hearted game overt references are easy to do and often right. However throwing in too many easter eggs into a slightly more serious game can severely reduce enjoyment. Both for people who don't get it (because they feel stupid "this doesn't make sense?") and people who get it (because they get tired "oh another reference to pop culture... oh come on")
Of course the best references are those that people who don't get it can enjoy because they make sense in the context of the game. Tacking on Monty Python quotes doesn't make a game remotely clever... or fun... Even though I love Monty Python and will tack on as many Monty Python references as I possibly can get away with in a game.
In modernish real-world games it's easy to get away with though. Just have a Mary Sue trivia spewing character and you're all set!
Of course the best references are those that people who don't get it can enjoy because they make sense in the context of the game. Tacking on Monty Python quotes doesn't make a game remotely clever... or fun... Even though I love Monty Python and will tack on as many Monty Python references as I possibly can get away with in a game.
In modernish real-world games it's easy to get away with though. Just have a Mary Sue trivia spewing character and you're all set!
Hoddmimir
200
I am actually looking to games, movies, poetry, books, friends, family, this forum, and my lunch orders for inspiration in my current games. For instance, I have decided that I want the game over screen to be a particularly depressing line from a fitting famous poem. Since my game is about vampires and werewolves, I have also decided that the Supernatural characters Sam and Dean Winchester will have cameo roles in a town or perhaps wandering in the wilderness somewhere. I will probably make a couple of references to vampire games or movies.
My thinking is that most people won't know anything about it so it won't effect their experience with the game in the slightest. BUT... for anyone who actually understands it, the entire gameplay experience gets kicked up a notch. It's just like children's movies and the little jokes that they include for adults.
My thinking is that most people won't know anything about it so it won't effect their experience with the game in the slightest. BUT... for anyone who actually understands it, the entire gameplay experience gets kicked up a notch. It's just like children's movies and the little jokes that they include for adults.
author=Hoddmimir
I am actually looking to games, movies, poetry, books, friends, family, this forum, and my lunch orders for inspiration in my current games. For instance, I have decided that I want the game over screen to be a particularly depressing line from a fitting famous poem. Since my game is about vampires and werewolves, I have also decided that the Supernatural characters Sam and Dean Winchester will have cameo roles in a town or perhaps wandering in the wilderness somewhere. I will probably make a couple of references to vampire games or movies.
My thinking is that most people won't know anything about it so it won't effect their experience with the game in the slightest. BUT... for anyone who actually understands it, the entire gameplay experience gets kicked up a notch. It's just like children's movies and the little jokes that they include for adults.
You win for putting Sam and Dean in.
cho
0
references/allusions are fantastic if you can pull them off in a sensible, subtle way
in other words don't subscribe to the "name-dropping" school of referentia and it's fine (e.g. a medieval knight compares his mushroom-induced trip to pineapple express or whatever is probably a bad idea)
there's nothing amateurish about references or allusions so long as you're doing it right; good writing thrives on allusions (and stealing, if you want to go there)
in other words don't subscribe to the "name-dropping" school of referentia and it's fine (e.g. a medieval knight compares his mushroom-induced trip to pineapple express or whatever is probably a bad idea)
there's nothing amateurish about references or allusions so long as you're doing it right; good writing thrives on allusions (and stealing, if you want to go there)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I have never seen any reference that adds depth to writing. Invariably its purpose is to add humor. Sometimes that succeeds and sometimes it fails, but references for any other purpose are destined to fail every time.
Not that there's anything wrong with humor. Or with references for the sake of humor. Shit, my game has an entire scene ripped word for word from Return of the Jedi, and another scene where the villain turns his castle into a Mario Bros 1 level. Just don't expect the presence of Team Rocket or Jack Bauer in your game to be taken seriously and create real plot points, because it won't be.
On the issue of "amateurness", I don't think it's really equated with that at all. Ever played World of Warcraft? Ever played Kingdom of Loathing? Or, hell, forget video game examples; ever watched Pinky and the Brain?
Not that there's anything wrong with humor. Or with references for the sake of humor. Shit, my game has an entire scene ripped word for word from Return of the Jedi, and another scene where the villain turns his castle into a Mario Bros 1 level. Just don't expect the presence of Team Rocket or Jack Bauer in your game to be taken seriously and create real plot points, because it won't be.
On the issue of "amateurness", I don't think it's really equated with that at all. Ever played World of Warcraft? Ever played Kingdom of Loathing? Or, hell, forget video game examples; ever watched Pinky and the Brain?
Emanzi
168
I think its more funny in animations like family guy but not so much in games, feels like a borrowed sense of humor, not really fun unless its done well and done on a well known classic e.g a mario level in an rpg would be funny but then add a reference from an unknown game or another rpg maker game and you most likely would piss of the other guy as well as have your players like, huh? since they never played that game.
LockeZ (and everyone else): Play Exit Fate and Last Scenario.
Although EF focuses on Suikoden 2 more than anything, Last Scenario (and, arguably, the first half of EF) is all about taking and referencing The Big Games and then utterly destroying them. Last Scenario does this through story and characters (there is even a fiend named Tiamat and a helpless elf-esque healer-chick) while Exit Fate does it through settings, scenarios and graphics. See, EF uses Suikoden 2 tilesets and character edits, as well as music from The Big Games. It is Squaresoft Sin (and... Konami Kin, I guess) used amazingly well. I didn't even notice Frog's Theme until my third time playing the game - and it's used in one of the most central, important areas in the game.
That said, Last Scenario is, by the author's admission, entirely about this deconstruction of the genre (Final Fantasy... Last Scenario? Get it?), so the dark, intriguing storyline is hidden behind the first few hours of setup: hero learns that he's a great hero's descendant, an enigmatic man dressed in all black chases down and forces his way into the party, the healer-chick is used as bait, there's a sudden war going on, the horrible demons are coming back, et cetera.
And then everything changes and you are crying for the villains and don't know who even is a villain or bad guy and people start dying and the demons begin to reawaken and the man in all black is sexy as hell and you get an old man with daggers who is somehow the second-best tank in the game for being frail as hell (iirc).
Both games use their references without regret or shame, and use them for artistic and story-telling advantages.
EDIT: Also, you should play Last Scenario for two more reasons: it's better than your game, and Augustus is the best villain in any RPG. Exit Fate is better than Last Scenario (even though both are totally worth playing), so Exit Fate is way better than your game.
Although EF focuses on Suikoden 2 more than anything, Last Scenario (and, arguably, the first half of EF) is all about taking and referencing The Big Games and then utterly destroying them. Last Scenario does this through story and characters (there is even a fiend named Tiamat and a helpless elf-esque healer-chick) while Exit Fate does it through settings, scenarios and graphics. See, EF uses Suikoden 2 tilesets and character edits, as well as music from The Big Games. It is Squaresoft Sin (and... Konami Kin, I guess) used amazingly well. I didn't even notice Frog's Theme until my third time playing the game - and it's used in one of the most central, important areas in the game.
That said, Last Scenario is, by the author's admission, entirely about this deconstruction of the genre (Final Fantasy... Last Scenario? Get it?), so the dark, intriguing storyline is hidden behind the first few hours of setup: hero learns that he's a great hero's descendant, an enigmatic man dressed in all black chases down and forces his way into the party, the healer-chick is used as bait, there's a sudden war going on, the horrible demons are coming back, et cetera.
And then everything changes and you are crying for the villains and don't know who even is a villain or bad guy and people start dying and the demons begin to reawaken and the man in all black is sexy as hell and you get an old man with daggers who is somehow the second-best tank in the game for being frail as hell (iirc).
Both games use their references without regret or shame, and use them for artistic and story-telling advantages.
EDIT: Also, you should play Last Scenario for two more reasons: it's better than your game, and Augustus is the best villain in any RPG. Exit Fate is better than Last Scenario (even though both are totally worth playing), so Exit Fate is way better than your game.
Exit Fate and Last Scenario.
Anyone knows what those fonts are?
EDITE: useless post is useless, it's explained in the site.
Speaking of games, Kill Bill is like a montage of other stuff, everything (from enemies to names to weapons to outfits) is to some degree "inspired" by some other filme... and it's awesome and NOT humorous.
As for games, same thing applies. I don't think references are always comedic. Check this Space Funeral blog.
As for games, same thing applies. I don't think references are always comedic. Check this Space Funeral blog.
Hoddmimir
200
Although many references would add nothing but comedic value, I think there are plenty of comedic references that won't. For example, again in my name, I am attempting to include a variety of dark and creepy monsters that are stray somewhat from the usual rpg kinds. I am using Jewish mythology to do this. The jewish holy books are filled with all kinds of terrifing things or concepts from demons, to angels that work as the opposite of guardian angels, giant serpents, etc... and since most of these are not known in mainstream they will most likely not be recognized by the average player, but if someone does realize where they come from, it seems unlikley they would be amused by it. Still a reference, but not comedic.
author=Fallen-Griever
all mediado this all the time, like Biggs and Wedge in the Final Fantasy series.
a well researched or suitably obscure reference that is well played and not hamfisted can make the player feel great about 'getting it' and is an easy way of drawing parallels with characters / story points / "whatever."
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Craze
Last Scenario (and, arguably, the first half of EF) is all about taking and referencing The Big Games and then utterly destroying them. Last Scenario does this through story and characters (there is even a fiend named Tiamat and a helpless elf-esque healer-chick) while Exit Fate does it through settings, scenarios and graphics.
That is not at all what I was thinking of as references. A long-haired bishounen swordsman bent on destroying humanity is not a reference. That's just a trope. If he wears all black, was given special powers in a lab by scientists as an infant, and goes crazy after learning about it, that's still not a reference, though it's progressed from a trope to a rip-off. If he falls from the ceiling, stabs your girlfriend through the back, and tells you that you're a puppet while a small white orb bounces into the water and Aeris's theme plays, that is a reference.
If that sort of vague allusion to common tropes is all you meant by references, then of course I can't imagine anyone having a problem with it. That's pretty much how all fiction works. You take an idea that already exists and then you change it somehow. There's nothing new under the sun. When I said references couldn't be taken seriously, I was talking about crossoverish cameo appearances, parodies, Family Guy style quotes, Kingdom Hearts, etc.
(Downloading those two games you mentioned, btw, Craze)
It's more than just tropes, although you do have a point about them.
-COLLECT THE CRYSTALS: FFI, III-VII, XII, XIII (oh fucking god the crystals in Last Scenario...)
-TIAMAT THE FIEND: FFI (EF and LS... best if you play LS first)
-CARD GAME THAT IS NOT TRIPLE TRIAD-INSPIRED NOPE: FFVIII (LS)
-FEMALE WARRIOR THAT DEFIES COUNTRY WITH COY BUT DETERMINED MAN: FFVI (Celes/Locke)
-EXIT FATE (EVERYTHING): Suikoden II (including the graphics, battle systems (no duels though), several characters (sidekicks go... but still fucked with way more than SuikoII) and the first half of the game's plot/settings/scenarios)
-EXIT FATE (MUSIC/GRAPHICS): Blatant references to various "golden age" RPG settings and characters that you might not even notice since they're so well-integrated
There's way more but it's been a while. It's a lot of tropes, and a lot of references.
Really, you just need to play Exit Fate for the pun-making, silly henchmen. My Fucking God.
-COLLECT THE CRYSTALS: FFI, III-VII, XII, XIII (oh fucking god the crystals in Last Scenario...)
-TIAMAT THE FIEND: FFI (EF and LS... best if you play LS first)
-CARD GAME THAT IS NOT TRIPLE TRIAD-INSPIRED NOPE: FFVIII (LS)
-FEMALE WARRIOR THAT DEFIES COUNTRY WITH COY BUT DETERMINED MAN: FFVI (Celes/Locke)
-EXIT FATE (EVERYTHING): Suikoden II (including the graphics, battle systems (no duels though), several characters (sidekicks go... but still fucked with way more than SuikoII) and the first half of the game's plot/settings/scenarios)
-EXIT FATE (MUSIC/GRAPHICS): Blatant references to various "golden age" RPG settings and characters that you might not even notice since they're so well-integrated
There's way more but it's been a while. It's a lot of tropes, and a lot of references.
Really, you just need to play Exit Fate for the pun-making, silly henchmen. My Fucking God.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Triple Triad is the reason why I have 400 hours on my FF8 save instead of 45 minutes
