IS GRINDING A FLAW IN RPGS?

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I've often thought grinding was always part of rpgs, but is that true? I mean sure you need to level up in rpgs to be able to take on bosses. Terranigma is one example of a must grind to beat the game. Then you have Mario&Luigi games where you don't even need to kill any enemies, except bosses, to beat the game. Then you have games where you only need to fight all the monsters in each area once and you will be able to beat the game. So do you think grinding is a flaw in rpgs or does it depend on the rpg?
LEECH
who am i and how did i get in here
2599
It all depends on the rpg. I prefer minimal grinding, but a little (LITTLE) makes the game slightly better in my opinion. Going to wait for more replys now.
Grinding is actually a feature that is unique to any game with progression based on mundane tasks (XP, collecting money etc). It helps make a game easier for people who have a difficulty with the game in exchange for wasting a bit of extra time on it.
I personally don't mind grinding in games. FF III for the DS is a good example of a game that needs to have to battle everything that comes your way, or games like Pokemon. I'm guilty of it in my games (The more recent ones that is) too, but I think it's all about the style and flow of the game the designer is going for.
LEECH
who am i and how did i get in here
2599
author=Shinan
Grinding is actually a feature that is unique to any game with progression based on mundane tasks (XP, collecting money etc). It helps make a game easier for people who have a difficulty with the game in exchange for wasting a bit of extra time on it.


Oh, i was refering to Compulsury grinding, but yeah, i think most RPGs should have optional grinding, to make things easier if you suck.
I think grinding is a major flaw if it takes up to 80% of your play time.
benos
My mind is full of fuck.
623
Grinding is a tedious task at most, make it so you can at get from level 1 to 3 in a 3-4 mins. Instead of taking forever. And leave the leveling up to the bosses.
If the game play is good and grinding is properly rewarded, I don't mind it. However, if grinding a billion enemies yields a 5% chance to get something marginally awesome, then leave me out of that.
Squaresoft hit the sweet spot in the SNES era. Kill everything you meet as you scoop up treasure and proceed to the boss, and you'll be fine.
Generally, I like when grind factor is at or above this 'sweet spot'. It's when I'm uber and slaughtering goblins and rabites for piddly exp that I start to get annoyed. Especially when Run Away fails.
Grinding isn't good unless you do it do it while doing something else. Example, leveling up pokes while watching tv is a decent combo.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7419
There was a time in my youth that I fought in the sewers of Dark Cloud 2 far beyond their usefulness (single digit exp per battle/friends urging you to move on), so wasting time, something grinding is closely associated with, was clearly never an issue for me. Though when it came to games like Everlong, once you go beyond a certain level, you will no longer encounter random battles. This sounds like a pretty sweet deal at first, but this thread made me consider that if you weren't all that wise with your GP spending, you could easily run yourself into the ground. Frankly, if it came down to putting in some extra time but always having gold readily accessible or being able to never have to worry about excessive grinding at the price of the world possibly coming crashing down around you if not properly managed, I'd have to lean on the side of the time-sink.

Then again, grinding in an RPG just seems natural, like a biscuit going stale in the depths of your dresser after you forgot about it for a few years. Even so, no matter how natural something is, that doesn't necessarily mean it is going to be enjoyable if it takes forever, and rewarding the player with 2-5% of the EXP they'll need to the next level after fighting monsters that pose a relative threat can very rarely be justified if the max level doesn't cut off around 20-30.
author=Corfaisus
rewarding the player with 2-5% of the EXP they'll need to the next level after fighting monsters that pose a relative threat can very rarely be justified if the max level doesn't cut off around 20-30
good ol' nocturne

my general take on grinding is that i should be able to go through the entire game fighting every battle i chance upon -- no more -- and be at or slightly below the level i should be when i hit the final boss fight (i prefer below, but that's because i tend to grind anyway). as long as that's fulfilled, i guess it all just depends how the game is set up.

edit:
i remember those halcyon days, whittling away the hours grinding another level so that Matador wouldn't obliterate me in two turns. fuck you nocturne
benos
My mind is full of fuck.
623
I sometimes like enemies to be on the world map, though. I kinda thought to put that on SOLDIER as well. Have worldmap/dungeon monsters/humanoids walking away to catch you.

And becomes a much more optional approach.
rabitZ
amusing tassadar, your taste in companionship grows ever more inexplicable
1296
I like grinding (as long as the battles aren't a TOTAL borefest) so, yeah, sue me. :p
Of course, I think grindind should be a bonus, not mandatory and also with at least a slight possibility of getting something different in return.

Of course, I'm the game I'm making I try to keep it to a minimum.

EDIT: I don't know if Hell's gate in Tactics Ogre, for example, is considered 'grinding'???
As long as I don't feel the utmost need to grind, grinding is okay with me. But I don't grind blindly, that's the thing.

My way of grinding though is fighting all monsters along the way and never running away from battles, unless it really becomes too much for me...

And when I've reached just outside the boss area, I don't go back to grind some more or whatever. I'll just go straight in. If I have to go back and grind some more based on my way of training, then the game will need serious tweaking...

So in short, grinding isn't a flaw, but compulsory and forced grinding is.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
I think all RPGs should include a form of grinding to allow the less able players to beat certain bosses, for example. But there's no way I'm going to grind just to get Weapon of +10000 Strength when I could beat the game easily without it.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
Grinding as a requirement is a terrible design flaws in games. If your combat system is fun, players will actively seek out battles on their own. If players are not actively seeking out battles on their own, requiring grinding is forcing them to do something they don't want to do - which directly contradicts the point of a game.
I think, even a bit of grinding is necessary in an RPG. It helps to elongate the game a little more and give players a chance to experiment with a battle strategy. Though to make it more fun, you could add in some rewards for exploring areas or killing certain numbers of monsters, just to give players some encouragement in taking a bit of extra time to strengthen their characters. Aquiring exp shouldn't be a chore either (one of the reasons why I quit maplestory ages ago). 7-12 minutes of grinding time IMO would b a good amount to add to a game.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=cho
my general take on grinding is that i should be able to go through the entire game fighting every battle i chance upon -- no more -- and be at or slightly below the level i should be when i hit the final boss fight (i prefer below, but that's because i tend to grind anyway). as long as that's fulfilled, i guess it all just depends how the game is set up.

this this this this

Some people use grinding, sidequests and powerups to get to a high enough power level to take on challenges because sometimes the difficulty you have calibrated things to will read differently to everyone who plays it. Megahard Mode might be Normal Mode to a skilled gamer. What you naturally find/kill without grinding should bring you up to the minimum power level required and anything else is extra. LockeZ is taking this to an extreme with his game, but not having ANY optional fights (I think!), whereas some games EXPECT you to waste time running around for hours endgame. LockeZ's design model should work perfectly fine for most players but if they find it too difficult and get stuck......

of course grinding defined as doing the same thing over and over is retarded, so you should never be forced to do it.
I don't think there's a right answer to this. It's a design choice, it's a matter of style. A game may require you to grind a bit to survive even random battles, and another game may be so easy you can skip most battles and still beat bosses. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. Depends.
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