DOUBLE STANDARDS

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Thiamor
I assure you I'm no where NEAR as STUPID as one might think.
63
This feedback is to whoever decided to deny my Gamer Profile, after accepting it the first time around.

I just don't agree with it. Of course I used Exit Fate's resources, but only a small percentage of that game is original. The story (the idea of it), has been used in many games, but the main type is of Suikoden 2. The Tilesets aren't even his. The music isn't, and sound effects aren't. Hell, I'm having a hard time believing even the charasets are even his own creation. I am pretty sure a lot of your subs on this game uses resources from other games. Most of Exit Fate's music is of Final Fantasy, Wild Arms 2 and so on.

If this is how you're going to do your job, by denying a right to someone who is doing what many others already do, I might as well quit your site, as well as give you a pretty bad feedback reply. This was only leading up to what could be even worse.

This message alone on the notice that it was denied, makes the site's staff very unprofessional.

Your submission, Crest, was denied. Reason was: "This is being denied until you remove every single Exit Fate resource in the game. Seriously tacky, dude.".

I don't think you should have a right to tell me to remove every resource from that game until you remove EVERY SINGLE GAME that copies resources from other games. Until that time I feel I should have it re-accepted. I don't think you want to have a bad impression with the game designers who want to make fan-made games or anything such as that, am I right?

Also I'm not some butt-hurt kid. I'm just pissed that I was looked at badly and denied after being accepted, when you have people doing the same basic things, most likely every day.

Until something is changed about how the staff on here does things, this site is looked down upon by myself, as your actions are considered to be double standard by allowing others the right to do what I did, and I was the one to be cut-out.

Also I'm not sure how you also act when reading these types of topics, but I am hoping this isn't locked, deleted, or whatever and I to be banned for speaking out against this. But instead, I'm hoping to get some-sort of a reply. Not one talking about what resources that I came to use, as that is irrelevant to the fact that others do the same-thing as this site is filled with more amateur stuff than professional stuff, and the most that you're going to get out of a lot of the amateur stuff is copied resources. That much is made blatantly clear and obvious.
ehh so you stole someone's sprites they had made from scratch specifically for their own game and don't understand what's wrong with that? i'm betting you didn't get permission either?
using Final Fantasy music and using a fellow developer's own resources is a totally different thing. if you spent months on portrait's specifically for your game and i ripped them and decided to use them in my own, you would be fine about that? of course not!
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=Thiamor
I don't think you should have a right to tell me to remove every resource from that game until you remove EVERY SINGLE GAME that copies resources from other games. Until that time I feel I should have it re-accepted. I don't think you want to have a bad impression with the game designers who want to make fan-made games or anything such as that, am I right?

nope, my fangame page exists
as an added bonus it includes no resources from anybody's else's game, even the disgaea sprites I am using are all being hand-edited by me.

This is really just very whiny and pedantic; you specify 'i am not some butthurt kid' but yeah, yeah you are. (BUT HEEEEEEEEEE DID IT TOO!! *point*) The staff does not have time to police every single game profile looking for stolen resources. You know what they do have time to police? Incoming game page approval requests...

Thiamor
I assure you I'm no where NEAR as STUPID as one might think.
63
I forgot to mention, my friend who is with me in making my games, got the permission from him. Took forever. I even posted that on my profile..but it seems it doesn't really matter. Double Standards are still Double Standards.

But I didn't use the obvious custom things in that game. His Face images he used was too obvious and I just didn't want to use it.

I did use a few other obvious images, but that was to be changed in the later versions. This was more-so for the people to test out the story of it. A story with images, better explains something in terms of playing a game, than just reading about it.

Also to Booble, I personally wouldn't care as long as credit is given, as I gave credit. Anything that would direct others to my game, is okay by me.
Stealing from a professional and stealing from a hobbyist are two different things. Yes, theft is theft and you should try not to steal resources, but when comparing the two it's much, MUCH worse to take from someone who does their work for free, for their personal enjoyment.

Also, I find it hard to believe that now that your game page is down and you're fighting for it, you suddenly, oh so conveniently "Got permission" from the developer of Exit Fate. This also makes no sense given your next statement of not wanting to use the faces because that was "Too obvious". Why would you be concerned with getting caught if you were allowed to use them?
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
author=Lennon
Stealing from a professional and stealing from a hobbyist are two different things. Yes, theft is theft and you should try not to steal resources, but when comparing the two it's much, MUCH worse to take from someone who does their work for free, for their personal enjoyment.

But being illegal, neither should be allowed at all. That's the true double standard.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=Sailerius
author=Lennon
Stealing from a professional and stealing from a hobbyist are two different things. Yes, theft is theft and you should try not to steal resources, but when comparing the two it's much, MUCH worse to take from someone who does their work for free, for their personal enjoyment.
But being illegal, neither should be allowed at all. That's the true double standard.


all games now require being 100% RTP and Custom graphics for approval

(but seriously, stealing from a paid professional vs. an unpaid volunteer is simply a matter of the greater of two evils)
It's sort of comparable to Robin Hood I guess. Don't steal from the poor, steal from the rich and give to poor.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7419
It's not a right, it's a privilege.
Just be glad you weren't denied straight out, but hinted towards a possible chance. I'm not sure if you've ever been part of any online community in the past, but if you feel that you have some manner of entitlement around here, make your own damn site and link all your friends to it, because those in control of the submissions have the right to deny any game at any time for any reason. Your choice of how to go about this also isn't helping, acting like a whiny twit who didn't get his way. If you want to have your game posted here, the first step is to, you know, actually look into the reason given and take appropriate action and try again.

author=Thiamor
I just don't agree with it.

If this is how you're going to do your job, by denying a right to someone who is doing what many others already do, I might as well quit your site, as well as give you a pretty bad feedback reply.

This message alone on the notice that it was denied, makes the site's staff very unprofessional.

I don't think you should have a right to tell me to remove every resource from that game until you remove EVERY SINGLE GAME that copies resources from other games. Until that time I feel I should have it re-accepted.

Also I'm not some butt-hurt kid. I'm just pissed that I was looked at badly and denied after being accepted, when you have people doing the same basic things, most likely every day.

Until something is changed about how the staff on here does things, this site is looked down upon by myself, as your actions are considered to be double standard by allowing others the right to do what I did, and I was the one to be cut-out.

Also I'm not sure how you also act when reading these types of topics, but I am hoping this isn't locked, deleted, or whatever and I to be banned for speaking out against this.

• Grow up
• Deal with it
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
author=Versalia
author=Sailerius
author=Lennon
Stealing from a professional and stealing from a hobbyist are two different things. Yes, theft is theft and you should try not to steal resources, but when comparing the two it's much, MUCH worse to take from someone who does their work for free, for their personal enjoyment.
But being illegal, neither should be allowed at all. That's the true double standard.
all games now require being 100% RTP and Custom graphics for approval
Why is this a laughable notion? Even if it's a difference of a greater of two evils, they're still two evils. It's truly sad how many people in this community insist that art can only be made by stealing from others. The sense of entitlement is pathetic.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=Sailerius
author=Versalia
author=Sailerius
author=Lennon
Stealing from a professional and stealing from a hobbyist are two different things. Yes, theft is theft and you should try not to steal resources, but when comparing the two it's much, MUCH worse to take from someone who does their work for free, for their personal enjoyment.
But being illegal, neither should be allowed at all. That's the true double standard.
all games now require being 100% RTP and Custom graphics for approval
Why is this a laughable notion? Even if it's a difference of a greater of two evils, they're still two evils. It's truly sad how many people in this community insist that art can only be made by stealing from others. The sense of entitlement is pathetic.

I completely understand your point of view, but you know what? Not everybody has the ability to make their own custom graphics. I don't think you should just rip whatever you can find, ESPECIALLY other indie designers who did the work themselves, but I can't really fault somebody for making a 2k3 game with FF6's graphics. Am I tired of seeing it? Yes. Is Squenix realistically suffering for this "theft" in any way, shape, or form...? It's really hard for me to care. Forcing people to make ONLY RTP GAEM is not a very appealing option.
Woah woah woah let's all get off our high horses for a second

It'd stupid that we have this strange notion that stealing from one is right, but the other isn't, but that's just the way things are. You can't reasonably say "Ban rips" because that would be deleting 80% of the games on EVERY RM site. If you want people to use custom shit, don't just tell them, show them or something.Maybe just set an example, or make a tutorial on custom graphics/music/etc.

Acting high and mighty about it isn't going to change anything.

Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7419
author=Versalia
Not everybody has the ability to make their own custom graphics.
I beg to differ. If you want to get down to basics, all you need is MSPaint and the ability to throw together black and white boxes/squiggles/etc. Is it appealing? Not in the slightest. Is it "custom"? You bet your sweet ass it is.
All you need is practice really. I sucked ass at spriting when I started, but it's been a few years and I'm at least fairly decent at this point.
author=S. F. LaValle
Yes, it's a double standard. Why does this bother people?

Look, none of us would be using ripped sprites if we could have them made to suit our own purpose. We all know this, and we all look the other way using sprites from commercial games.

The issue I have is that we feel the need to take sprites made by a member of the amateur community (I'm presuming based on the responses) for their own game. Not because I enjoy being a hypocrite, but because there are plenty of other resources out there you could be stealing, made by companies whose artists have already been paid for, and subsequently forgotten about these works for years or decades. Who cares if it's a double standard. That which makes a particular amateur game unique from others should not be free game for all simply due to "ethical consistency." It's common sense.

Hanzo, I don't know enough about the source material to make judgments beyond the concerns others have been stating, so I'm not explicitly accusing you of any wrongdoing. Do note, however, that RMN will typically take corrective action when a plagiarism complaint is made relating to materials created by another community member. Nocturne is not a member of RMN specifically, but I personally believe all RM communities in any part of the world are entitled to that mutual respect. Use this information as you will, but I don't think the request to remove or alter your banner or other posted content displaying ripped amateur resources is unreasonable.


author=Magi
author=Sailerius
Why is it so terrible to steal resources from RM games when it's perfectly okay to steal from big-name games? Theft is theft and this double standard is ridiculous.
Both are reprehensible to a degree, but ripped graphics predominantly have their roots in games over 15 years old. Aside from the companies having made the majority of all profits they will ever make, they have the bonus of brand and image recognition. Most people will look at "Legion Saga 2" and recognize Ramshalle (or whatever it was called) as the iconic Narshe tileset.

In addition, these long-deceased titles can actually enjoy a resurgence in old art by somebody else using "Mana Holy Land.png". Whether or not you have reservations about that is aside from the point though, as art in the past has traditionally found ways to re-use forgotten material such as Marcel Duchamp's "readymades" or collage in modern pop-art. I choose those two specifically because I feel they symbolize the issue of "ripped" graphics. Duchamp pretty much just dug old trash out of a dump and presented it as art without changes, while collage art is a mish-mesh of ideas much like edited tile rips.

I don't think even Indie games should be completely immune if we're to consider the latter. However, one should use discretion and good judgment on this issue. The indie presence is a stone's throw away compared to faceless corporations. They are your peers, your muse next door, and most importantly your most outspoken critics. The independent community is small and if you do something like take the graphics from another person, word travels fast.

Unfortunately that's only among the community and not the consumer. There is literally no barrier of logic that will preserve graphics from "The Violinist of the Sleeping City" as iconic, particularly when another project such as "Gokku Son Quest IV" decides to use its tilesets not even a single month after the game's release. The image recognition is absent here and it cheapens the experience for the small indie title that put forth limited monetary resources to squeeze out its tiles and sprites. To say this issue carries the same gravity and perpetuates a double standard for commercial and independent developers is really at its heart short-sighted folly.

I guess even with all those Misao's a wimp is still a wimp, huh. - Da gratt mido

i should have killed rmn in the womb. - the late great wip

why are you so fucking stupid. jesus christ you are so dumb i cannot believe how fucking stupid y7ou are holy shit - me

author=Ciel
disgusting that this logic needs to be spelled out. the difference is obviously that the chance those old games had to make money and gain recognition has over a decade passed, using their assets will not impact them creatively or financially in any way and can actually rekindle appreciation for long-forgotten works, whereas using original graphics from a contemporary indie game cheapens their product in the HERE&NOW

author=Magi
why are you so fucking stupid. jesus christ you are so dumb i cannot believe how fucking stupid y7ou are holy shit - me

end topic ok can we go home now
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=Corfaisus
author=Versalia
Not everybody has the ability to make their own custom graphics.
I beg to differ. If you want to get down to basics, all you need is MSPaint and the ability to throw together black and white boxes/squiggles/etc. Is it appealing? Not in the slightest. Is it "custom"? You bet your sweet ass it is.


Ha! Pardon me for not closing every semantics loophole.

Not everybody has the skill to make their own custom graphics that are not hideous Mspaint abominations.

Let's all agree that Mog knows what he's talking about and Thiamor doesn't and leave it at that
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
author=Lennon
Woah woah woah let's all get off our high horses for a second

It'd stupid that we have this strange notion that stealing from one is right, but the other isn't, but that's just the way things are. You can't reasonably say "Ban rips" because that would be deleting 80% of the games on EVERY RM site. If you want people to use custom shit, don't just tell them, show them or something.Maybe just set an example, or make a tutorial on custom graphics/music/etc.
What if, hypothetically, S-E sent a notice demanding that all RM games with materials infringing on their rights had to be removed within 30 days or face legal action? Would that be reasonable? The community would survive. Everyone knows what they're doing is wrong and just laughs it off because it's convenient while simultaneously demanding that no one ever take anything of theirs.

There are tons of tutorials on how to make custom graphics and how to make the RTP look good. The vast majority of RM users will not bother spending the time or effort when they can just use rips because we let them get away with it.

Acting high and mighty about it isn't going to change anything.
What better way is there to enact change than to bring it up in User Feedback?

EDIT: Before I get hit with a straw man for the 30th time, I do not in any way support the stealing of resources made by other RM developers. I assert that art theft is never acceptable under any circumstances, regardless of who is being stolen from.
OR


...to encapsulate, I don't give a shit what reservations you or anyone else has about me ripping/editing graphics for ten+ year old games, because I, and a few others like me, still have over ten thousand pageviews for my game, over 100+ subscribers looking forward to it, and can possibly rack up about a thousand downloads for it, and it's incredibly unlikely, like, meteor striking the earth unlikely, that there's a damn thing anyone is going to do about it. Now let's just keep making games how we please and get back to it, yeah?

*gHeTtO lYfE*
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
14360
2k3 is illegal

rips are illegal

Edifice is the only legal game
Sailerius
Everyone knows what they're doing is wrong and just laughs it off because it's convenient while simultaneously demanding that no one ever take anything of theirs. The vast majority of RM users will not bother spending the time or effort when they can just use rips because we let them get away with it.


I can't in all honesty argue with that point. But I don't agree that doing a vitual genocide of illegal games could be called a good thing, ever. Even if some people would adapt, others would be upset and simply move to another site where they're allowed to post their game.

Also, not to be an ass, but can you show me these supposed tutorials? I've never seen any, not in the art section OR the game development section.
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