RELIGION AND THE AFTER-LIFE

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An extension of my previous post.

In my eyes, God loves us a lot more than we do. To fully understand this, one must understand the concept of "free will". When I grasped the understanding and impact of the statement "free will", I began to see the immensity of this love. I have come to understand that a Christian can also use an atheist him/herself as proof of this gift of "free will".

This is my view on "free will".

===================================================================================

We have COMPLETE free will.

To control our emotions.
To control our actions.
To control our instincts.
To control our thoughts.
To control our love.
To control ourselves in whole.

-BUT-

Our choices are utterly final and irrevocable,
good, bad, or indifferent,
whether they are proven by lawful process or not,
and whether they are seen by a cloud of witnesses or by our eyes alone.

We also cannot control others without their willful submission,
good, bad, or indifferent,
whether they will help or hinder,
and whether they will choose the same way we will.

===================================================================================

The impact of this realization and letting it sink in has changed my views on a lot of things dramatically over the past few years, and God is still changing my views through this realization.

"To each his own..."

There is so much power in those words now.
A lot of misconceptions occur because people tend to think of God as a vain deity who sends people to hell because of Catholic dogma. Let's not try to rely on that too much, as they have a history of perverting the word of God for their own means in the past, and unfortunately, some of that is still around.

Pascel's wager doesn't really make any sense. You could believe in God, say "heck with it" and sin all your life, but your belief won't get you into heaven. Witness many ancient Israelites-- they had every reason to believe in God, yet they went on paths to their own destruction anyways.So let's not rely on him too much either.

I think Fallen-Griever, by pointing out the "why does God let evil be" argument, deserves an answer:

Because God is not a petty tyrant, He wants His children to love Him freely, meaning they must have the choice to love Him. By giving them the choice to love Him, He is also giving them the choice not to love Him, and also the choice to sin. So sin is an unavoidable result of free-will.

But God doesn't like it, because sin hurts other people. You accuse God of permitting evil, but He really doesn't want to-- witness that the punishment for sin is death. Fortunately, because God loves us, He made a loophole in His own law, and that loophole was Jesus: Through Jesus, people can avoid death by sin.

Eventually, God will no longer permit evil, and thus eliminate those who want to continue their sinful ways. So really, the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing-- it was an opportunity for God to prove His loving character to the universe.

I hope that makes sense to everyone. I just wanted to clarify, even though its a bit off topic. =)
Free will also means we can choose what to believe, if god was a living entity would that make you believe in him/her/it more? Sure, but it would lose the entire essence of trust, faith is trust, god already sent his only son wasn't that enough? We killed him if you don't remember and in the same way if god was to be revealed who's to say we wont kill god? Maybe we're already killing god by rebuking/forsaking his entire message on earth that he gave to Jesus to share with the world, to love one another.

Some religions, spiritual beliefs e.t.c belive that life is a dream of form, of matter and physical reality.
Death might be an awakening, for instance dreams are so real when you're in them, if you try catch yourself dreaming you'll always have some clever and logical reason as to why things are, absolutely un-aware of the waking world thats parallel to the dreamer.
In the same way its completely up to you weather to see the world and fill it with reasons which is natural I'm not saying its wrong but its another thing to forsake whats beyond reality just as the dreamer forsakes the waking world.
In other words what can be scientifically called reality is not absolute, their has to be some kind of mechanism that enables reality to function, for example we cant have a dream unless we fall asleep and wake up, Equivalent to life ( falling asleep ) and death ( waking up ) or the other way around. and when we wake up we normally are so taken up by life that we forget our dream in the same way maybe thats why we don't remember our previous life "dream".

If we look at the "concept" of a soul, if you create a humanoid robot it will always be a robot even given free will, emotion and all our human characteristics simply because it wont know of itself beyond its physical exterior, even if you teach it all the religions in the world it will render them obsolete because it has no evidence of itself beyond as a soul and thus wont be truly alive, in essence it will be a programed and set being that is not alive simply because it does not have "life".
Real life is life beyond death. Its this energy field thats in-touch with the infinite and eternal that enables this entire mechanism of life and death to operate, its this life we know as god, I cant justify it to be anything other than pure energy and as proved and stated earlier energy dose not die it only changes. As form/matter perishes whats left behind is this pure energy that shifts and forms another form, its true we perish and die sooner or later but its not scientific to state that matter is not embodied/manifested and returns to energy, its just as contradictory to say that we all live in a state that is absolutely free from energy in the sense of spirit that enables us to envision, to live, to die and to resurrect. You can call this energy god, the soul, the spirit e.t.c but it exists. Weather or not religion has anything to do with it is another question.

LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Fallen-Griever
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is God able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is God both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

From a "purely logical" standpoint, it's clear that god either doesn't exist or is a massive douche.

This makes the assumption that preventing evil is possible. The fact that God cannot do something does not necessarily mean he is not omnipotent. God cannot create a round square. He cannot create a boulder that is too big for him to move. He cannot name an integer between zero and one. These are ideas that simply do not make sense, and therefore cannot be done, even by a perfect being.

Likewise, God cannot remove human evil without removing free will. The possibility of evil is a necessary result of free will. And God has determined that removing free will would be worse than allowing evil, so he allows people to maintain their free will.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=kentona
No, I don't think any sort of afterlife exists.

tbh the concept of "Life" is a human invention (and a pretty ill-defined one at that!). Furthermore, when most people imagine passing on to some other magical dimension, they usually imagine it as their consciousness that crosses over, which is kind of funny because consciousness is even more ill defined than life and consciousness is a learned behaviour (and not some innate state of being).

In this universe governed by its rules, what we call life arising was inevitable.

As for religions, everything about their mythos is human imagination and invention. I wouldn't put much stock into what their adherents have imagined about the afterlife over the past few millenia.


just in case anybody forgot the voice of reason
author=Fallen-Griever
From a purely logical standpoint, I would rather be a Christian and end up being wrong than be an atheist and end up being wrong. From a risk-benefit assessment, atheism is the belief system that makes the least sense to choose.
This only works if you believe that the Christian god is a vain bastard who would send people to hell for not believing in it, despite them being caring, loving and law-abiding people... in which case it's gonna send you to hell for your assessment of it as vain, as vain entities don't tend to like being called vain.

This I rather agree with. I wouldn't want a god that forces me to choose between them and eternal damnation. But maybe it's not as simple as that. Maybe it's not the god that sends you to whatever form of damnation you believe in. Maybe it's you.

You ever see "What Dreams May Come"? What if it's like that, and those punished in the afterlife are simply punishing themselves? It makes a lot more sense than a loving god visiting eternal torment on you because you had sex before marriage.


author=Fallen-Griever
Besides, if you're going to quote stuff like that:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is God able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is God both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

From a "purely logical" standpoint, it's clear that god either doesn't exist or is a massive douche.

The problem with this line of logic is that it completely removes the will of man from the equation, thus absolving them of accountability. But I would ask, where does evil come from? What do we classify as evil? Not the actions of animals, who by most philosophical reasoning are outside of such classifications as good or evil. The word "evil" is attributed to only one living creature on earth, and that's man.

Whether you believe in things like temptation from demons or not, it's mankind who perpetrates the acts that others call evil. But this is a direct result of our ability to think for ourselves, our free will. If there is a god (or goddess, or gods), then I should hope they understand the difference between free people and enslaved minions. If they only want obedient lapdogs, why give us even the opportunity to turn against them? Why give us free will at all?

I don't know about you, but if I were a loving god, I wouldn't want slaves, I'd want children. I'd want my children to choose to follow the path I set out for them on their own, not because they needed me, nor because they feared me, but because they loved me back. In order for them to do that, they'd have to have free will. Yes, that opens the door to them doing terrible things, and yes it means I'd have to take a step back and not involve myself in their decisions. But ultimately, that's the price of growing up. It's the price of sitting at the big kid table: we have to be held accountable for our actions.

So yes, a truly omnipotent and loving god would have the power to stop all the evil in the world. But so do we. Maybe there's a god, maybe there isn't. Maybe someday he/she/they will sweep in and clean up our messes. Or maybe it's time for us to stop looking to one to do it for us.
arcan
Having a signature is too mainstream. I'm not part of your system!
1866
author=ubermax
This I rather agree with. I wouldn't want a god that forces me to choose between them and eternal damnation. But maybe it's not as simple as that. Maybe it's not the god that sends you to whatever form of damnation you believe in. Maybe it's you.


Assuming there is an actual hell with fire and brimstone(most people I know believe it and I did as well when i was a christian) I would completely disagree with you that there is any free will involved. The choice would then not be up to you because you would be forced to believe or otherwise face the consequences. That situation would be no different than being mugged. Clearly you wouldn't call giving all your stuff away an action of free will.

If you believe there is no actual hell but instead it means you will just be away from god then the concept of it and all supposed moral laws become irrelevant. If you get eternal life no matter what you do it makes religion pointless since your idea of hell would be my idea of heaven. Also I guess I am away from god now anyway so can I say I am in hell?

Also I find it hilarious how often you guys keep bringing up belief as though it was a matter of choice. It is 100% irrelevant what you want god to be like or if you even like him or not. Can I choose to believe the sky is green? No. Everything is what it is and there is no choice involved. I think some of you subconsciously understand or at least associate your beliefs with being a matter of choice which I find hilarious.
Arc you where once a Christian!? dun dun dun lol, I see what you mean since most of the time we are born and taught to believe in god, I don't think its a bad thing to have something to believe in. but they say theirs a lie in believe so who knows.
arcan
Having a signature is too mainstream. I'm not part of your system!
1866
Why so surprised lol? I thought most people started out religious.
a critical haiku is hidden below
i this know for true
you're all bad philosophers
and haven't read kant
you know what is funny about all this?

people are taking themselves to seriously.

i have been guilty of it myself but, why be so serious?

a topic so dividing in its zealotry on both sides needs humor.

All these posts on here are just people just trying so desperately to convince themselves that their opinions are real.

the same with the Bin Laden Thread.

What does an athiest scream when he cums?
"Chemical chance! Chemical chance!"
-Bill Hicks


Most christians belieeve every word Genesis says,
I don't even think Phil collins is that good of a drummer.
-Jimmy Carr

lighten up, put down that cold frothy can of conviction and listen to a good jesus joke.
And a good atheist joke, why pander to only one side?


@F-G:
Is it that He's not a fan of free will, or that He's not a fan of people using that free will to harm each other and themselves? Every instance of free will leading to destruction is because that free will was used to choose sin - and the problem with sin is not just that it involves rebellion against God, but that it in itself leads to destructive consequences.
edit: in fact forget all this, talking about religion just goes around in circles i'm not sure why i posted
@arcan: True, I cannot say a blue sky is green, because I can look at the sky and see with my own eyes what color it is. Not so with religion. Spiritual belief is a choice based on faith in what believers cannot see. No one is born believing in a higher power. It is their upbringing and environment, coupled with their own choice to believe, that makes someone spiritual.

I myself choose not to believe, not due to any specific event in my life, but a complete lack thereof. But saying I dont believe isn't the same as saying it doesn't exist. As a self described scientist, I can't say god does not exist. It's impossible to prove a negative. But if I'm going to accept such a possibility, I have to lend the same courtesy to all forms of supernatural entities. So yes, I accept there may be a god. But I also accept that there may be a Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy. I'm also going to put forth the same amount of effort in believing in them. (read: none)
People are born with an instinct to believe in an authority unquestionably! It is a survival advantage ("Don't eat that poison berry kid!" "Don't swim in this lake filled with alligators!" "Stay close to me!").

So when that higher authority says "Do this dance and it will rain!" or "All trees have spirits!" or "Athena burst fully grown from Zeus's head!" children also instinctively believe that, too!

So spiritual belief isn't as big a choice as you'd think.
author=boobledeeboo
edit: in fact forget all this, talking about religion just goes around in circles i'm not sure why i posted


Smartest thing ITT.
And buddy jesus says: "das" nice comrade, "rel" nice







To get back on topic I want to talk about ancient religions vs modern ones, do you think maybe as the times have progressed we ( humanity ) have become less and less spiritual and more and more *ritual ( in terms of religion ) and logical ( in terms of science ). Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

* ritual as in the practice of most religions are a set of rules we follow ritually in order to attain some divine enlightenment or to pass on to the next life, weather or not you do so with spiritual enthusiasm seems un-noticed.

In some cases some old religions are worse in the fact that they literally used to kill atheists or "non-believers" or sacrifice humans to the "gods" but also older record of religions show a more spiritually active world, e.g the age of miracle teachers like Jesus, Bhuda, Mohammad and other religious teachers who birthed a revolution, during this time they where more like cults however not all cults are evil ( its only in modern times where religion, cults and beliefs are used to manipulate people ). I'm not sure, what do you guys think about this.

Would it be more benefiting to society to have remained in the disciplined era of early religion in the cult like sacrificial rituals or maybe its best we forget completely about god after all, has he forgotten us?

If you look at ancient religions also theirs a great deal of evidence of foreign involvement i.e in sacrifices, enchantments, worship and rituals, could it have been aliens who leaped our evolution in return for worship? Is it just that ancient people where incredibly un-aware of the forces of nature?



Indians have multiple gods and as you can see they look very foreign and alien, the ancient astronautic theory might have some truth to it with religion as a record, it would be ignorant to say such gods where simply imagined by mistake if so perhaps they where envisioned in dreams or illusions but this could still mean they had some impact on life as they are remembered religiously and worshiped. Also its impossible to imagine something you can't in-vision and its impossible to in-vision something without some sort of inspiration or concept from where it stemmed from.



When Christianity was taken up by the romans they changed it a little to their understanding, it is said the Christians believe in a man up in the sky who watches over us similar to the Greek god Zeus. It is said Zeus is a jelouse god thus was worshiped alone as the supreme almighty god.






feel free to discuss whatever you wish, just a few questions on my mind...
Adon237
if i had an allowance, i would give it to rmn
1743
I think we are just all some random thing that started, I don't think any of it was for a purpose and just happened, I don't believe in God, or anything else like that(Atheist...) (Yay! Something you all will probably hate me for :D joking)
I don't believe that some dude sitting in space created the universe. I think it is all a load of crap. Yep. IF I was forced to have a religion,(knowing people today I wouldn't think that is too far fetched,) I would choose Buddhism (out of the major religions) because that at least makes the most sense. Most of my family hates me because I am not Christian (I AM ATHEIST) and so... Ya...
I wonder if we do get reincarnated, but that just makes me wonder about population growth and stuff like that. So yep. I think it is mostly a load of crap. You Christians(Who have in fact put the world in a technological setback because of their ignorance, and thinking God told them that the technology was "evil" and now we are all so far behind because they destroyed the decent people's work. So why would I want to be a slave to some screwed up religion? I may seem like I am using Christianity as a target, but that is the one I am around the most so... Also, some Christian group in Ireland or whatever [my facts might be completely wrong so...) starved themselves because they thought the only possible food source they had left, the "potato" was "EVIL", so yes, people and civilizations killed themselves over that stuff.) might not like me, so I guess I am dogging on you people because I am am around you the most, you know, since my whole family is... (Well, not immediate family, you know, I am not teaching my kids about Christianity, they can screw themselves over with that when they grow up.) Anyways. While reincarnation would be amazing, it would be kind of sad to not remember anything about the life you had before. Also the "after-life" like Heaven and stuff like that makes me lol every time people say they go there when you die. WRONG! You either bet cremated(though that I would never do,) you get buried underground where you rot and decay, or you get preserved like the ancient Pharaohs in Egypt, or if you are like really rich, I guess you can get buried in space. So ya...

Edit:
After reading this post I feel pretty bad about myself, I could have just ruined someone' s faith. Though I would still keep it up , because this is my true opinion on religion, even though i am sadly dogging on Christianity. :(