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GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH: SEXUALITY IN BAYONETTA (AND OTHER GAMES)
Posts
LivingEffigy
187
LivingEffigy
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Closeauthor=Dudesoft
Fap fap fap
author=Cosmic_Sea
is there not more important things to talk about (world hunger, America land of the free-more people in prison than any other country on the planet, homeless etc etc) rather than waste precious time that could be used making kick-ass games we find ourselves talking about the objectification of women who, dare i say, are...imaginary?
Both make valid points.
Erilex
3452
I think it's kind of funny how fictional women being depicted with revealing outfits and/or exaggerated erm, attributes raises eyebrows everywhere, yet full male nudity is often played for laughs and no one bates an eyelid at it. Either I'm terribly unlucky, or seeing a man's exposed buttocks is a largely more common occurrence in mainstream media (especially movies) than the female equivalent. Videogame example: Breath of Fire 4. Ryu starts the game butt naked, and no one makes a big deal out of it. A scene in which the female characters are implied to be naked (nothing is actually shown) is completely removed from the western version of the game.
I don't mind oversexualization, whether it be the male or female variant. I have seen plenty of guy's asses and my eyes have yet to melt off. But double standards? Those really tick me off.
I don't mind oversexualization, whether it be the male or female variant. I have seen plenty of guy's asses and my eyes have yet to melt off. But double standards? Those really tick me off.
Acra
332
I'm honestly positively disgusted at this topic so far. It feels like half of the responses are telling me to get back to the kitchen, implicitly or not. That we're irrelevant, not worth listening to, and don't deserve to be here.
I've never played Bayonetta, nor have I ever had any remote interest in it. Now, there's a time and place for everything, and Bayonetta probably gets a free pass because "that's its thing", like Duke Nukem's misogyny or the gore of Mortal Kombat, God of War, and the like. That stuff has its place, I'm fully willing to grant that, but the greater whole of it is hardly helping making gaming look appealing in any way to women.
The one thing I will say is that the obsessive objective of trying to use sex to sell a game is a huge repulsive force. The bottom line is that gameplay is and will always should be what matters most. But enough male pandering, and used in the wrong way, is still a strong enough force to make me look elsewhere. Let's say the next Dead or Alive (fighting) game blows its competition out of the water with gameplay. Even then, I'd still be unlikely to play it, simply due to its ridiculously skeezy reputation.
A lot earlier in that blog she talks about browser ads (Evony, etc). I don't think it's that much of a surprise how repulsive a game trying solely to force itself on you with boobs alone is. I can't even picture many men being interested in that crap, because of how crass and lowbrow it is. Not to mention how completely and utterly detached all the boobage is from the actual game (as I recall, most of those kind are sort of like Civilization or SimCity). The fact that anyone even tries using such an advertising method is absurd. Even moreso is that it has become so widespread.
And it really says something terrible when you know that about 70% of women (I honestly forget where exactly this number comes from. I THINK it's from World of Warcraft, but I'm far from certain) play as a male character instead of a woman. Why? Well, there's a plethora of reasons, but most notably so they don't have to run around in a magical thong and to help prevent them from being stalked/mocked/abused/whatever by other players. I've been down this road myself a number of times. It's a colossal pain to have to deal with. The fact that the issue is entrenched not only in the publishers minds, but also the common playerbase, speaks volumes of how deeply ingrained and problematic the whole issue is.
I've never played Bayonetta, nor have I ever had any remote interest in it. Now, there's a time and place for everything, and Bayonetta probably gets a free pass because "that's its thing", like Duke Nukem's misogyny or the gore of Mortal Kombat, God of War, and the like. That stuff has its place, I'm fully willing to grant that, but the greater whole of it is hardly helping making gaming look appealing in any way to women.
The one thing I will say is that the obsessive objective of trying to use sex to sell a game is a huge repulsive force. The bottom line is that gameplay is and will always should be what matters most. But enough male pandering, and used in the wrong way, is still a strong enough force to make me look elsewhere. Let's say the next Dead or Alive (fighting) game blows its competition out of the water with gameplay. Even then, I'd still be unlikely to play it, simply due to its ridiculously skeezy reputation.
A lot earlier in that blog she talks about browser ads (Evony, etc). I don't think it's that much of a surprise how repulsive a game trying solely to force itself on you with boobs alone is. I can't even picture many men being interested in that crap, because of how crass and lowbrow it is. Not to mention how completely and utterly detached all the boobage is from the actual game (as I recall, most of those kind are sort of like Civilization or SimCity). The fact that anyone even tries using such an advertising method is absurd. Even moreso is that it has become so widespread.
And it really says something terrible when you know that about 70% of women (I honestly forget where exactly this number comes from. I THINK it's from World of Warcraft, but I'm far from certain) play as a male character instead of a woman. Why? Well, there's a plethora of reasons, but most notably so they don't have to run around in a magical thong and to help prevent them from being stalked/mocked/abused/whatever by other players. I've been down this road myself a number of times. It's a colossal pain to have to deal with. The fact that the issue is entrenched not only in the publishers minds, but also the common playerbase, speaks volumes of how deeply ingrained and problematic the whole issue is.
DBAce9Aura
52
There's also the whole "beauty is subjective" thing to consider on this issue. What turns one person on may not turn on somebody else.
Perhaps you guys should take one step forward? Be that change you want to see. I would be all for it. If the guys aren't doing it, do it yourselves. That's what many women did back in the 1920s and 30s. Female developers (and female developers within the industry are burgeoning. Perhaps not to the extent of males, but it's happening) should learn to put their foot down in some instances and not be afraid to do so when it comes to negotiating with male developers.
What I don't understand is why do people consider sexuality such a taboo when violence, blood, and gore of all things are not, especially in video games where it's so commonplace there are actual genres dedicated to wholesale violence? One takes life away while another is sort of the precursor to creating it. If violence can be a motivator (and it is), why can't sexuality of male and female base desires be the same? Mass Effect caused such an uproar for its harmless sex scene, but lo and behold, all the violent renegade options you can take in the game batted absolutely no eyes at all.
I'm not trying to divert the discussion, because I feel they're connected in the moral sense. This is me playing devil's advocate. Personally, again, I don't seek to impose my moral compass on anyone but cause discussion. However, I will say there is a clear double standard with BOTH parties involved. I find a lot of the times that sexism is only sexism when it's convenient for the party in question, but when done to the opposite party, it's not an issue. This goes for male and female (as seen here, and I'm guilty of it. Most of us are, even if we argue for some arbitrary equality). It's probably why I've become so apathetic. I can discuss it freely, but when it comes to any emotional fervor, I don't have any for it.
What I don't understand is why do people consider sexuality such a taboo when violence, blood, and gore of all things are not, especially in video games where it's so commonplace there are actual genres dedicated to wholesale violence? One takes life away while another is sort of the precursor to creating it. If violence can be a motivator (and it is), why can't sexuality of male and female base desires be the same? Mass Effect caused such an uproar for its harmless sex scene, but lo and behold, all the violent renegade options you can take in the game batted absolutely no eyes at all.
I'm not trying to divert the discussion, because I feel they're connected in the moral sense. This is me playing devil's advocate. Personally, again, I don't seek to impose my moral compass on anyone but cause discussion. However, I will say there is a clear double standard with BOTH parties involved. I find a lot of the times that sexism is only sexism when it's convenient for the party in question, but when done to the opposite party, it's not an issue. This goes for male and female (as seen here, and I'm guilty of it. Most of us are, even if we argue for some arbitrary equality). It's probably why I've become so apathetic. I can discuss it freely, but when it comes to any emotional fervor, I don't have any for it.
Kindredz
7
Lol. I think the author of that silly blog has been posting in this thread the entire time. Such anger...simply can't admit when she posted foolishness.
Salma Hayek.
author=kentona
The Power of Boob:
http://www.cracked.com/funny-212-boobs/
Salma Hayek.
author=SalOMac
Frankly, I'm all for eyecandy . For guys and girls. I don't want my game women to be realistic for the same reason I don't like "realistic" games: I have to live in the real world everyday and it's boring; A cups are far too common, I can't run at light speed and the last time I ate shrooms... well, I'd like to stop short of self incrimination. let the fan-girls have their long haired guy-girls, and let me have my disproportionate skanks. ahem. In moderation of-course.
maybe as a guy I'm just blind to how much this "supposedly" annoys female gamers. Or maybe I just run into too many anime fan-girls who complain about it, but when I look at their sketchpad it's nothing but yaoi. (sp?) Who knows.
I don't think we'd really be having these types of discussions if people learned to safely distance themselves from fiction. When you do that , it aint so bad.
Uh
I didn't read the article but y'know I agree with the arguement 'sex sells'. I mean, my character, Rosalin, in Blood Rose, wears tight-fitting (not overly flesh-showing, however) clothes and she has huge, excuse the colloquialism, ta-tas. Doesn't make her any less of a fighter nor less of an absolute bitch prepared to bitch slap any of the other characters to high hell, but she can do it while looking 'sexy', right?
And meanwhile the two male characters are also attractive! (Personally?) How about that?
I know my audience. Majority of RMN members and players are going to be male. I'll have my female fanservice, yes, but I'm not going to fill the thing with yaoi or whatever, because I know I'll be alienating my audience. When developing anything, anything at all, audience has to be kept in mind. So that's what I do. I try to eqaully balance my male and female characters as best I can (I do tend to have more male characters than female just because females are a pain in the ass to work with when going on long trips. Actually to be perfectly honest, I hate writing female roles!). But there's always going to imbalance, inequality, and possibly 'oversexualisation' in terms of the characters.
Oh and that Sorceress artwork is an embarassment to my class. Come on, woman! You can have enormous boobies and still SUPPORT THEM.
(I'm more concerned about her enormous ass though. Woah)
EDIT: In my real world, A cup BRAS are way too common whilst the actual realistic size of mine and all of my friends are far beyond that.
Just sayin'.
I didn't read the article but y'know I agree with the arguement 'sex sells'. I mean, my character, Rosalin, in Blood Rose, wears tight-fitting (not overly flesh-showing, however) clothes and she has huge, excuse the colloquialism, ta-tas. Doesn't make her any less of a fighter nor less of an absolute bitch prepared to bitch slap any of the other characters to high hell, but she can do it while looking 'sexy', right?
And meanwhile the two male characters are also attractive! (Personally?) How about that?
I know my audience. Majority of RMN members and players are going to be male. I'll have my female fanservice, yes, but I'm not going to fill the thing with yaoi or whatever, because I know I'll be alienating my audience. When developing anything, anything at all, audience has to be kept in mind. So that's what I do. I try to eqaully balance my male and female characters as best I can (I do tend to have more male characters than female just because females are a pain in the ass to work with when going on long trips. Actually to be perfectly honest, I hate writing female roles!). But there's always going to imbalance, inequality, and possibly 'oversexualisation' in terms of the characters.
Oh and that Sorceress artwork is an embarassment to my class. Come on, woman! You can have enormous boobies and still SUPPORT THEM.
(I'm more concerned about her enormous ass though. Woah)
EDIT: In my real world, A cup BRAS are way too common whilst the actual realistic size of mine and all of my friends are far beyond that.
Just sayin'.
Emanzi
168
Well I've given it some though but it might be refreshing to see more human characters in terms of personality and appearance, over-exaggeration can get tired very fast in character design especially if it doesn't have character.
I see what you mean when you said no one minds gore but one small/light sex scene creates an up-roar. It seems sex and sexuality is such a sensitive topic, while decapitating someones head off and or ripping someones spine out ( Mortal Kombat ) is such a common thing in games these days.
It used to be taboo to have someone kill other people in games ( it was always a robot, aliens, zombies but never normal people until games like GTA ) so maybe later on in the future if female game characters are still "over-sexualized" we might be looking at a whole-nother story, I guess from a sober perspective its disgusting but for example most music videos today scratch that most of T.V in general is loaded with half naked babes for apathetic horny men like the majority
( including me sometimes... ) even advertisements usually have an attractive female model seldom normal. or if its a guy they are also glossy if not very famous and wealthy.
I'm sure their a bunch of girly games out their with this whole dream-guy fantasy going on, if you've never played any stop buying american games or looking at only the american game market and go check out japan, they have an entire category of dating sim games likefor example the showcase game here Re-Allistar or whatever ( didn't really care much to check it out ). and a bunch of other girly game genres.
If you've notices the girls in these games are incredibly normal so female gamer's can relate to them, you don't have to bitch about a market segment that's not even targeted at you, for example I thought twilight was lame but I know its meant for girls/ a female audience and might I remind you the guys in that movie where incredibly built, shirts-off-vampire action and one very normal female main character who as a guy I had absolutely no interest in... ( don't dog me, just saying ) I'm pretty sure most of us guys are not that charming and incredibly handsome/dreamy. In other-words its just the same as throwing a rack on tomb rader but you're forgeting the main point of this, ENTERTAINMENT and IDEALS.
author=Crimson_Legionnaire
What I don't understand is why do people consider sexuality such a taboo when violence, blood, and gore of all things are not, especially in video games where it's so commonplace there are actual genres dedicated to wholesale violence?
I see what you mean when you said no one minds gore but one small/light sex scene creates an up-roar. It seems sex and sexuality is such a sensitive topic, while decapitating someones head off and or ripping someones spine out ( Mortal Kombat ) is such a common thing in games these days.
It used to be taboo to have someone kill other people in games ( it was always a robot, aliens, zombies but never normal people until games like GTA ) so maybe later on in the future if female game characters are still "over-sexualized" we might be looking at a whole-nother story, I guess from a sober perspective its disgusting but for example most music videos today scratch that most of T.V in general is loaded with half naked babes for apathetic horny men like the majority
( including me sometimes... ) even advertisements usually have an attractive female model seldom normal. or if its a guy they are also glossy if not very famous and wealthy.
I'm sure their a bunch of girly games out their with this whole dream-guy fantasy going on, if you've never played any stop buying american games or looking at only the american game market and go check out japan, they have an entire category of dating sim games likefor example the showcase game here Re-Allistar or whatever ( didn't really care much to check it out ). and a bunch of other girly game genres.
If you've notices the girls in these games are incredibly normal so female gamer's can relate to them, you don't have to bitch about a market segment that's not even targeted at you, for example I thought twilight was lame but I know its meant for girls/ a female audience and might I remind you the guys in that movie where incredibly built, shirts-off-vampire action and one very normal female main character who as a guy I had absolutely no interest in... ( don't dog me, just saying ) I'm pretty sure most of us guys are not that charming and incredibly handsome/dreamy. In other-words its just the same as throwing a rack on tomb rader but you're forgeting the main point of this, ENTERTAINMENT and IDEALS.
Blitzen
3253
Miranda from Mass Effect is even a bit much.
I think that hypersexuality in games should be understood in the context of the game as a simulation. The game, in addition to the incumbent set of game design rules, simulates a social interaction when the player interacts with other anthropomorphic figures.
The game designer is allowing the player (or through the design process, himself) to have an interaction with a sexually attractive woman. This simulation could supplement the experience (or lack thereof) of mate selection in waking life, and provides a proxy for male-female socialization. For the male player, it could be said the chance to interact with or manipulate a sexually attractive woman is an outlet for their own unfulfilled sexual desires. The designer crafts the experience for himself and then allows the player to participate through the design.
Because the female audience isn't involved in this male designer-character-player relationship, they are essentially alienated from the sexual feedback-loop between the male-gendered player as the manipulator, and the female-gendered simulation as the manipulated. Appropriate feminist models would simply need to reverse the roles, as is the case in point with the "Hey, Baby" video game where the female player is at will to manipulate the male-gendered simulation.
Quite simple, really.
I think that hypersexuality in games should be understood in the context of the game as a simulation. The game, in addition to the incumbent set of game design rules, simulates a social interaction when the player interacts with other anthropomorphic figures.
The game designer is allowing the player (or through the design process, himself) to have an interaction with a sexually attractive woman. This simulation could supplement the experience (or lack thereof) of mate selection in waking life, and provides a proxy for male-female socialization. For the male player, it could be said the chance to interact with or manipulate a sexually attractive woman is an outlet for their own unfulfilled sexual desires. The designer crafts the experience for himself and then allows the player to participate through the design.
Because the female audience isn't involved in this male designer-character-player relationship, they are essentially alienated from the sexual feedback-loop between the male-gendered player as the manipulator, and the female-gendered simulation as the manipulated. Appropriate feminist models would simply need to reverse the roles, as is the case in point with the "Hey, Baby" video game where the female player is at will to manipulate the male-gendered simulation.
Quite simple, really.
Entertainment and fantasies, you know that a lot of our fantasies are induced by the society we live in...!
Perihelion
665
I don't have a problem with attractive characters of either gender. What I do have a problem with is characters that are explicitly designed as fetish objects or fantasy embodiments or characters whose oversexualization breaks immersion (hello @ walking around in an incredibly impractical bikini and no one comments on it), is unrealistic, is disrespectful to the character, or otherwise detracts from the character as a serious character. If you stick a huge rack and plunging neckline on your female lead and all the camera shots point towards it, she becomes more about the tits than her personality. Unless it's used as a character point (which is never), it's ridiculous and distracting.
That said, although blatant fanservice targeted at either gender annoys me, I see it as a symptom of the real problem, not the cause. Female characters in general in games aren't taken seriously. I think we need more complex, interesting, well developed characters of both genders in games, but female characters suffer more than males.
Again, I have no problem with sexy characters. Everyone likes looking at attractive people, including me, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the sexiness should be implemented in a subtle, tasteful way that isn't character-derailing and doesn't distract from what's actually important. There's nothing inherently wrong with scantily clad women, but there's a time and a place. If you're looking to fulfill your sexual fantasies, go look at porn.
That said, although blatant fanservice targeted at either gender annoys me, I see it as a symptom of the real problem, not the cause. Female characters in general in games aren't taken seriously. I think we need more complex, interesting, well developed characters of both genders in games, but female characters suffer more than males.
Again, I have no problem with sexy characters. Everyone likes looking at attractive people, including me, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the sexiness should be implemented in a subtle, tasteful way that isn't character-derailing and doesn't distract from what's actually important. There's nothing inherently wrong with scantily clad women, but there's a time and a place. If you're looking to fulfill your sexual fantasies, go look at porn.
Miranda from Mass Effect is even a bit much.
I definitely disagree, but clearly I'm in the minority here. Nonetheless, I didn't find that her extreme hotness detracted from the game in any significant way, and for me it was a value add. Then again most of you lot seem to prefer the alien broads, so to each his own.
On the other hand:
A lot earlier in that blog she talks about browser ads (Evony, etc). I don't think it's that much of a surprise how repulsive a game trying solely to force itself on you with boobs alone is. I can't even picture many men being interested in that crap, because of how crass and lowbrow it is. Not to mention how completely and utterly detached all the boobage is from the actual game (as I recall, most of those kind are sort of like Civilization or SimCity). The fact that anyone even tries using such an advertising method is absurd. Even moreso is that it has become so widespread.
Strongly agree.
I don't have a problem with attractive characters of either gender. What I do have a problem with is characters that are explicitly designed as fetish objects or fantasy embodiments or characters whose oversexualization breaks immersion (hello @ walking around in an incredibly impractical bikini and no one comments on it), is unrealistic, is disrespectful to the character, or otherwise detracts from the character as a serious character.
Something else with which I basically agree.
This topic has gotten pretty bad.
I'll try to get an article up some time this week and maybe we can look at this from a different perspective.
I'll try to get an article up some time this week and maybe we can look at this from a different perspective.
author=Solitayre
This topic has gotten pretty bad.
I'll try to get an article up some time this week and maybe we can look at this form a different perspective.
I was actually writing a piece on realistic/engaging interaction between the sexes a few months back... maybe I should find that again. What's your article about, specifically?
newdisciples
406
@Craze: If there are any fat breasted women in the audience here, I think you've offended them worse.
author=sbesterauthor=SolitayreI was actually writing a piece on realistic/engaging interaction between the sexes a few months back... maybe I should find that again. What's your article about, specifically?
This topic has gotten pretty bad.
I'll try to get an article up some time this week and maybe we can look at this form a different perspective.
Gender roles in gaming culture.
