DIABLO 3 "VS" TORCHLIGHT 2

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author=SmileWithStyle
EDIT: To the shared gold thingy.... I don't mind shared gold, I just want them to make it seperate from character gold, so I can play a character without having acces to the millions of gold from my high level one. I like starting from scratch and "living off the land" sometimes, and so far it looks like they force one single gold pool for your whole account, which just stinks.


Who says you won't be able to play like that? Has blizzard explicitly said "Your gold will be forced upon other characters alwayyys!!" Or is it going to work more like you have gold that you can deposit into a shared 'bank' of some sort? Or maybe you just have the option of transferring gold to your other characters? Let's not be so hasty to judge. "Shared Gold" doesn't necessarily work exactly like you're assuming.

If it works like their most popular game of all time, then I don't think you'll have to worry about being able to 'live off the land', as you say.
Besides, I am hoping D3 will stick around for a long time, and over a long period of time, I tend to make more and more characters to take through the game, trying different builds, finding different loot and going through different randomized maps. Basically, 10 slots allow me to go through the game 10 times and that's it, unless I delete some of my characters.... And I HATE having to delete my characters. Not to mention all the people who play softcore AND hardcore, for them, 10 slots is even more painful.
is THAT what you meant by 10 slots?!?!? That sucks balls!

I have like 30+ diablo 2 characters, because, like you, I liked playing through the game with a certain build, and then doing it over again with a different build!

Man, I am getting less and less excited for D3 the more I learn about it.


As for stats, DUMB DOWN ALL THE GAMES! was a good response to it. If the D2 stat system wwasn't ideal, you rework it, not take it out. By your guys's logic, since there is an optimal skilltree build for a Sorc, why would anyone want to play anything else? Let's just remove skilltree customization and assign skillpoints automatically for the player.

A few more instances of logic applied like that, and we are back to RPGs on the NES (static levels with static stat increments and skill progression.)

I just think its stupid to take away customization from a game that largely defines itself with customization.


A single gold pool for whole accounts is also stupid, for the same reasons that Smile said.
It sounds like they're optimizing things to me. Plugging numbers into stats every time you leveled up was not fun, especially if you find out you'd rather prefer a different choice of stats. It led to hoarding skill points until you got an item that required a certain amount of stats, after which you'd just use yer skill points for that. That is lame, sorry.

There's still plenty of customization, so I don't see what you're getting so worked up about. You can still play Diablo 2 if you want to play the same game, you know.


Really, complaining about shared gold? Who cares? All people ever used gold for was potions and scrolls anyway (unless you wanted to gamble for some sweet amulets), it became annoying to have to grind up enough gold to afford that shit on new characters. A very welcome change. Besides that though, it probably doesn't work the way you guys are assuming it does. I don't think you'll start a new character and have thousands of gold just sitting in your inventory.

10 characters just makes it sound like I'm going to value my characters more, and like Blizzard even stated themselves, this isn't necessarily a permanent number. Relax.

In any case, I'm still pumped for D3. All these cons you guys are listing are just kind of rolling off of me, and really don't seem like a big deal.
author=narcodis
Who says you won't be able to play like that? Has blizzard explicitly said "Your gold will be forced upon other characters alwayyys!!" Or is it going to work more like you have gold that you can deposit into a shared 'bank' of some sort? Or maybe you just have the option of transferring gold to your other characters? Let's not be so hasty to judge. "Shared Gold" doesn't necessarily work exactly like you're assuming.

If it works like their most popular game of all time, then I don't think you'll have to worry about being able to 'live off the land', as you say.

It just sounds like it from the official info of shared stash, mainly this part:

A Golden Opportunity

Now, some of you who have played Diablo II may be wondering whether or not gold can be stored in the shared stash. The short answer is “no,” and that’s because the way gold is saved has been improved significantly in Diablo III.
Instead of gold needing to be stored in a character’s inventory or its private stash, like it was in Diablo II, it will now be a pooled resource that's usable by all the characters on a Diablo III account. This will help eliminate the tedium of having to move gold in and out of stashes, as well as make it quicker and easier for you to get back to the merciless, unrelenting slaughter of every hapless demon in sight.


I of course hope they do it so all the players are satisfied, it just doesn't sound like it from that. And gold should be more important in D3, unlike D2 where it was really just useless (apart from gambling).


To kentona: you got a point with the "sorceress build" example, but still, Energy is the most useless stat ever, and you are seriously gimping your character if you put lots of points in there, which was a big problem when starting as a new D2 player back in the day. And you really didn't get much options how to build your character stat-wise and still make it work, unlike with skills. Example: Sorceress going with Lightning skills is still viable, just as all the meteorbs/blizzballers, but sorc going for a Energy build, or some STR/DEX madness simply didn't work out well in the end.

I disagree with all the dumbing down in this game, Blizzard always stating that they want to make the player get back into the action faster with fewer interruptions... let's just take out all the features and customization from the game and let the player mindlessly slay monsters, eh Blizzard?

But as long as there is enough customization through skills and equipment, I won't miss the stat customization. Though it would certainly be nice if some developer finally came up with a fresh, functional take on the stats/character growth. It's just that to me, the stat system in D2 didn't really work (only one of the two major bad things I found about D2 during all those years of playing).
I would play Diablo 2 more, if there was new content to explore, tbh.

EDIT:
@Smile: heh! good point about the dumbing down. Soon it won't even be an action game with RPG elements. Might as well play Asteroids!
It seems like most people just take a look at Diablo III and go: Oh my gosh! No skill trees or skill points?! WHAT?! No stat points either??? What happened to the customization!?!?

I COMPLETELY see where you're coming from but I've been following D3 since it was announced and was originally off-put by all these changes. But the customization has actually been broadened significantly! Picking 6 skills you want from the 20+, THEN slotting EACH skill with one of 5 runes is just an insane amount of customization! Plus 3 passive skills from 12 choices!

And you'd mentioned that people might figure out a build that works really well and then everyone will end up the same like all the Meteorb Sorcs (or whatever) in D2, but looking at the skills, it really just looks like its pure choice. I don't think one or two builds are going to dominate the game because almost every skill is viable, unlike D2.

In D2, if you said OK! I want to be a Telekinesis/Teleport/Warmth/Firebolt Sorceress!!! ....you'd fall flat on your face. You just CAN'T play that way! Skills like Telekinesis aren't designed to have 20 points put in them. But in D3, you can pretty much pick any 6 skills you want and you'll be powerful and have a great time!

There are probably going to be some weaker builds in D3, but nothing like the gimplings you could create in D2. If you get multiple Armor spells, for instance, they DON'T stack so that would be a weak build. Or getting Magic Weapon (which increases your weapon damage) but then never meleeing, that would be another weak build.

Also, in regards to dumbing down the game, they're not really dumbing it down, they're just making it so you don't need to research how the game works before you play it. Like we were talking about above in Diablo II, your stat points were super important they way you distributed them. If you didn't do it correctly, you could literally break your character. That's no fun :(
Starscream
Conquest is made from the ashes of one's enemies.
6110
welcome to diablomaker.net. I feel so good.
Also, in regards to dumbing down the game, they're not really dumbing it down, they're just making it so you don't need to research how the game works before you play it. Like we were talking about above in Diablo II, your stat points were super important they way you distributed them. If you didn't do it correctly, you could literally break your character. That's no fun :(

but...that's part of the challenge, isn't it? Building a successful character? If I can't fail, then where's the fun that I derived from character building? Preparation for a battle in an RPG is half the fun for me. :(

author=kentona
Also, in regards to dumbing down the game, they're not really dumbing it down, they're just making it so you don't need to research how the game works before you play it. Like we were talking about above in Diablo II, your stat points were super important they way you distributed them. If you didn't do it correctly, you could literally break your character. That's no fun :(
but...that's part of the challenge, isn't it? Building a successful character? If I can't fail, then where's the fun that I derived from character building? Preparation for a battle in an RPG is half the fun for me. :(


Well I suppose, but I mean, sometimes you just look at a skill and think "Wow, that skill looks awesome!" So you build around it and suddenly your brother comes in and says "Haha, I can't believe you picked that skill, good luck in Nightmare and Hell!" Then after doing research, you realize it's just not a viable skill pick. But how were you supposed to know?

The first time that happened to me I quit Diablo II for months because I was so angry. I made a Teeth Necromancer back when there were no synergies. So I can't really side with the idea of lucking out with building a successful character the very first time you play a game. You shouldn't have to do research before you play to be successful without failing first.

You still have to prepare properly in Diablo III. You need to pick 6 skills that have good synergy. Then, you need to pick 6 runes that complement each other, some that return life or resource (like mana.) If you pick 6 damaging attacks and no defensive maneuvers, you will probably die in a heartbeat.

So you could pick 6 attack skills, but make three of them return life with runestones. Or you could pick 4 attack skills and 2 defense skills. I'm sure it will be very easy to die in D3 if you don't build your character right, but you're not forced to start the game over if you don't pick correctly. (I know there are respec's now, though in Diablo II.)
author=kentona
Also, in regards to dumbing down the game, they're not really dumbing it down, they're just making it so you don't need to research how the game works before you play it. Like we were talking about above in Diablo II, your stat points were super important they way you distributed them. If you didn't do it correctly, you could literally break your character. That's no fun :(
but...that's part of the challenge, isn't it? Building a successful character? If I can't fail, then where's the fun that I derived from character building? Preparation for a battle in an RPG is half the fun for me. :(



Half the fun is picking useless skills and not realizing it until you're halfway through nightmare mode? This isn't customization, it's poor design. I think you just need to accept that your idea of fun is wrong.

Every skill being useful and viable > Only some skills really being useful while the rest are all filler.
Hey I was reading some more Diablo III news and I ran into this article:

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/latency-no-longer-a-factor-in-d3-combat

Apparently they are using a new method of gameplay that causes all combat calculations to be client-side which causes there to be 0 latency while fighting. Even Australian players with 200+ms latency are reporting that they have absolutely zero lag while fighting.

Looting and trading will still be handled server-side.

So good news!!
Cool about the latency, one of my major fears with online-only is fading away.

Very happy about that.
author=narcodis
author=kentona
Also, in regards to dumbing down the game, they're not really dumbing it down, they're just making it so you don't need to research how the game works before you play it. Like we were talking about above in Diablo II, your stat points were super important they way you distributed them. If you didn't do it correctly, you could literally break your character. That's no fun :(
but...that's part of the challenge, isn't it? Building a successful character? If I can't fail, then where's the fun that I derived from character building? Preparation for a battle in an RPG is half the fun for me. :(

Half the fun is picking useless skills and not realizing it until you're halfway through nightmare mode? This isn't customization, it's poor design. I think you just need to accept that your idea of fun is wrong.

Every skill being useful and viable > Only some skills really being useful while the rest are all filler.
Discovering and learning which skills/classes are useful in a given situation is fun. :( And just because a skill is useless end-game doesn't mean its a useless skill. :( (I mean, there is still start-game and mid-game, you know).

And I was talking in a more general RPG sense.
author=Fallen-Griever
@Kentona: It's not that the stat-point system was broken, it's that the availability of internet communities makes it so that most people don't even bother trying to explore stat-systems anymore as they instead wait for someone else to do the hard, number-crunching work and then copy their build stat-for-stat. If most of the people playing the game aren't even going to bother exploring what is possible (as shown by the D2 and WoW communities) why should Blizzard bother putting that system into place?
These communities also came out with optimal builds for each class, and on top of that optimal builds overall. Again my argument would be "why not take out custom skill allocation altogether?" and "why not do away with multiple classes?"

I still contend that removing stat allocation because there was an optimal allocation is an odd decision.

EDIT:
In diablo 2, I had:

5 barbarians
6 amazons
1 sorceress (my with always chooses sorc, so I only have 1 of my own)
5 necromancers
2 paladins
4 assassins
7 druids


So I hope they bump the limit to 30 chars.
author=Fallen-Griever
Most people don't like having to start a game over just to change a single skill for another single skill. You may not be most people, but the last time I checked it is best for developers to cater for most of their target audience than a minor number of it.

EDIT:

It's also hilarious how you don't understand how Diablo III skills work.

"To use these skills, you have to assign them to an active skill slot. (Blizzard announced Monday that there are only six slots, down from seven. The skill slots are keys 1-3, the left and right mouse buttons, and an alternate right mouse button you can toggle with the tab key.) Once you’ve allocated skills to those six slots, that is your “build” and you can only use those 6 skills while you’re out adventuring. But, now! You can swap out one (or all) of your six skills just by dragging any of the other skills you have unlocked into their places."

Unless you are a complete and utter moron, you only ever need as many character slots as there are classes... x2 if you wanna play SC and HC. 5x2=10. OMFG LOOK HOW THAT WORKS!UIO£Eqadhsbi9p!!!!!

EDIT2:

@Kentona: It's not that the stat-point system was broken, it's that the availability of internet communities makes it so that most people don't even bother trying to explore stat-systems anymore as they instead wait for someone else to do the hard, number-crunching work and then copy their build stat-for-stat. If most of the people playing the game aren't even going to bother exploring what is possible (as shown by the D2 and WoW communities) why should Blizzard bother putting that system into place?

It is hilarious how you don't get the point I was trying to make, I am aware how the skill system works in D3. But I won't go into that again.

The skill system still doesn't solve the fact, that when I level up a character to max level and explore all the game content, and then sometime in future decide to make a new character to relive the game, I either have to delete some of my characters (no thanks) or am out of luck. Or are you trying to tell me that majority of people will play D3 through only 10 times and then just call it a day and move on to another game? I don't think so. It's even more laughable compared to D2 where I went through the game hundreds of times, with hundreds of characters over the years (and some characters even had SAME builds as some earlier ones).

(Let's also not forget that characters will play differently depending on their item drops, not only the skills (unless you are a heavy twinker/hoarder and want every character to be the same).

But maybe I'm just a complete and utter moron to want to play a DIABLO game more than 10 times.

PS: Sorry if I seem offensive, I just had 2 12hour night shifts in a terrible job, and am totally f**ked up.


EDIT: Just a little something Jay Wilson said during Blizzcon, it's interesting how they changed their mind with the char limit.

Jay Wilson: “I’m going to translate what I think you’re asking. I think you’re asking two questions. 1: Is the stash going to be bigger? I think that’s one of the questions. And the other question is, “How many characters can we have?” …

We haven’t determined the number of characters per account. But, because accounts don’t work the same as they did before, it’s not like you have a CD key and you can make tons and tons of battle.net accounts – it’s you have a CD and you have your battle.net account. The number of characters is going to be a lot higher. Exactly what that number is, I can’t say. We’re going to try to make it a number that’s actually really hard to hit. *applause*

So, get ready to applaud more. We’re going to make sure we never delete your characters. Even if you leave the game and come back.”


So basically it went from "lots of char space, no need to delete your toons" to "10 char limit, trololo". I really hope this isn't final :(
You missed one...
4) because its fun to replay the game
Why should I have to delete them? Also, what if I want to play the old characters?
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