STATS ARE FOR SISSIES: ALTERNATIVES TO TRADITIONAL GROWTH MECHANICS

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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=slashphoenix
As a corollary, when I played WoW, the level-ups are nice and shiny, and while you get some stats automatically, I never noticed those.

I bet you noticed the stats from the new equipment, which all has level requirements. While WoW has a shitton of stats, you get somewhere between 95% and 99.9% of your stats from equipment. Level requirements on equipment are one of the things that keep you growing as you level up.

Another thing that keeps you growing as you level up in WoW is the fact that enemies have levels, and your level is directly compared to the enemy's level every time you attack it. If the enemy is too high above you, you'll get glancing blows and do almost no damage, and it'll get crushing blows when it attacks you back and do tons of extra damage. So instead of levels giving you stats, it's simply the levels themselves that are important. I think this would be a workable system in a lot of games (especially if they had anti-grind systems).
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
LockeZ
So instead of levels giving you stats, it's simply the levels themselves that are important. I think this would be a workable system in a lot of games (especially if they had anti-grind systems).

This is how Edifice: Dark Guidance works.

Modifier * 50 * (Attacker's Level ^ 2 / Target's Level ^ 2)

Levels also slightly affect maximum HP, but the growth is from like 2,000 at L1 to ~3,500 at L99. You are, however, expected to be at L99 for the endgame.

slashphoenix: Nope, I haven't done that since V&V.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
author=LockeZ
I bet you noticed the stats from the new equipment, which all has level requirements. While WoW has a shitton of stats, you get somewhere between 95% and 99.9% of your stats from equipment. Level requirements on equipment are one of the things that keep you growing as you level up.

Oh yea, for sure. Getting new pieces of equipment were way, way more noticeable than leveling up - and a subclass of that is your weapon, because whenever you get a brand new weapon your damage or healing efficiency goes through the roof - way more than any piece of armor.

Another thing that keeps you growing as you level up in WoW is the fact that enemies have levels, and your level is directly compared to the enemy's level every time you attack it. If the enemy is too high above you, you'll get glancing blows and do almost no damage, and it'll get crushing blows when it attacks you back and do tons of extra damage. So instead of levels giving you stats, it's simply the levels themselves that are important. I think this would be a workable system in a lot of games (especially if they had anti-grind systems).

DnD 4e has a similar feature - much of your %-to-hit and other stats are directly tied to your level, with some bonuses from items or creation choices.

This is something you rarely see in solo RPGs, and I'm kind of curious how it would work. Instead of HP, Attack, etc., you could just rate your level vs. the monsters. Thus, higher level monsters would require more trickery or non-renewable resources to defeat, and lower level monsters would require little or no trickery or resources. I'm sure there would be some challenge in designing it, but I think it could work.

author=Craze
slashphoenix: Nope, I haven't done that since V&V.

Ha, just wondering. I'll admit I ignored them when I played it - they were kind of hard to remember.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
super cool double post story bro
Did Craze (or someone) start a thread a year ago or so about "you have only 3 stats to make your RPG. What are they and how does it work?"

GRS posted that he'd use Level for nearly everything.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
It was totally me.
Somewhere I had one that was summed up as Level (which factors into everything like Craze's post), HP (function of level), and Luck (random sway ala Wild ARMs). Solo character combat with eight skillsets to equip and recruitable allies were just permanent buffs. Never got far, couldn't get the solo character aspect to be fun at all and it became a puzzle game. I *think* level was tied in to # of skillsets too. I don't think I worked with that since, I'm not sure where that doc even is.
author=slashphoenix
Craze! I like the idea of "choosing" your growth instead of just randomly getting level-ups. I know I personally never noticed level-ups in FF7, 'cuz they didn't mean much besides a little more damage and health. Materia level-ups, however, meant cool new spells and abilities.

As a corollary, when I played WoW, the level-ups are nice and shiny, and while you get some stats automatically, I never noticed those. I did notice the talent points, which I got to assign wherever I wanted and often got cooler, more interesting bonuses, not just "+1% damage".

So in general I agree, give choices to the player, although it's cooler to give them bigger bonuses less often, because the player suddenly feels like he's getting stronger. If it's a gradual change, he may not even notice.

I find fewer, more rewarding level ups, preferable to 99 level ups with slight stat changes and a new skill now and then.

On the subject of choosing stats/things on level ups, I really like the way Cthulhu saves the world does this:
On a level up you either choose between two sets of stats (like +50 hp, +15 Mdf or +50 mp, +15 Def), or two skills (between pyhsical/magical and AoE/Single target among others). Not only could you make different character builds, but you were also looking forward to level ups. More than in your typical jrpg anyway.
author=Craze
I started this topic; you're allowed to discuss whatever comes up in it in response to the original topic.

Stop derailing with your personal philosophies on conversation and topic branching and nitpicking my use of a plural noun over a singular.


Those aren't my personal philosophies. These are general internet forum etiquette.

Also pay attention to your own stance for once. You say anyone can discuss whatever comes up and yet the irony is that you're telling me to stop discussing something that you brought up.

Forums are designed so that the mods and admins own the threads. They can lock it whenever they want or they can let it continue. It only seems like the OP's thread for when no intervention comes.

Anyways, I seriously question anyone's opinion if they say level-ups don't mean much in FF7 especially in the beginning but then I'm focusing on the word alternative rather than choice especially as the thread is titled stats are for sissies.

If I cheat in FF7 and made everyone lvl 99, there's a noticeable effect.

If I cheat in games that truly have level up alternatives, even when you reach level 99 you can't win past the entire game. Not even reach the final boss.

It's not like FF7 was some tightly challenging game to begin with or that the concept of a lvl 99 not dominating is unfathomable. A combat system that relies on status effects alone can derail a level 99. Since FF7 has little of that system even having a boss that can be killed instantly with one common item, it really begs the question whether it is because of a choice or simply because of another subtle effect like game graphics, game art, game narrative that would make one feel like level-ups mean little in FF7.

I mean even the clues are head scratching. A little damage in a game that has limit breaks. Health in a game whose combat system is often built in damage and where some of the bosses are tough not because of deadly status effects but deadly tank designs? How could level up mean little?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Going from level 20 to level 50 has a noticable effect in FF7, but I don't think it's any bigger than going from level 16 to level 18 in Dragon Age, and I think it's probably much smaller than going from typical junon-quality materia (most people are level 20 in junon) to typical endgame-quality materia (most people are level 50 in the endgame).

FF7's admittedly not the best example though, since although levels and stats matter much less in FF7 than in a game like Dragon Age, you're right that they do actually matter quite a bit. There are other games like The World Ends With You or the Castlevania series where levels mean extremely little compared to FF7. In both of those games, your power comes almost entirely from abilities and equipment. In Castlevania you gain those things largely from exploration (which is the primary measure of progress in the game) while in TWEWY you gain them from progressing in the plot. Although both games actually allow you to gain a pretty good variety of equipment and abilities by grinding instead (!) which makes the lack of emphasis on experience levels kind of disappointing. They get away with it because their boss battles are action driven.

Shit, you got me going on anti-grind again. Sorry. STATS STATS STATS. TWEWY handles them well. It has typical stats but they're all completely from equipment except for HP. The primary thing you get from XP levels is higher drop rates from enemies, which helps you obtain better spells and equipment. So you don't get better, you just get the potential to get better more easily later. It's an interesting mechanic.

Soul Shepherd is an (unfinished) RMXP game that has a very minimal effect from levels. It's heavily Shin Megami Tensei influenced; you obtain souls as drops from enemies, and the souls give you those enemies' powers. At level 99 using only the starting souls, you can't beat the second miniboss (normally fought around level 6-7). In fact, the biggest effect of level is probably that it increases the cost of inns. ;)

I'll be honest. I find "what can we give the player besides stats when they level up" and "how can we make stats less important" to be more interesting questions than "how can we get rid of stats." Because I kinda like stats.
True which is why it's important to be careful between distinguishing which are alternatives from which are not.

I think it's impossible to get rid of stats anyway but when I read stats are for sissies, I think even the two questions you raised are not as important which is why I try not to address them.

Stats being less important often requires a major counter design. Like you stated, Castlevania is an action platformer that just happens to merge deeper rpg elements than most games.

Giving players things at level up besides stats can sometimes be a waste of design too. You often end up with a system where they might as well level up their stats anyways because what they lose in stats they gain in spells, access, etc.

It doesn't mean those don't have merits but often times the games that do those produce traditional growth mechanics in a different cloth as opposed to alternatives.

In contrast something like relationship-based and achievement-based level ups have vast potential to not only be alternatives but innovative in developing rpg growth. Such concepts could push level-ups to choices for example so instead of just changing your alignment with your actions, you level up which changes the whole meaning of choices in rpgs.

Example: This is not a true alternative example but in one game, you were a gladiator who could fix a fight where you lose at the price of gaining 3x the prize you get but it will impact your win-loss ratio.

Unfortunately the win-loss ratio barely matters in that example but the ramifications are clear.

This is what made Fallout 2's perks system more flexible and made it's level up systems more unique (and free flowing) because you had to worry about health, combat, diplomacy, stealth.

Yet at the same time, you also see why a traditional level up system was implemented.

If you freeze grind, there's a chance the rpg becomes more like a puzzle game in an rpg engine. Yet to truly break through that, you need stats that matter more not just stats that matter less only the stats that matter more should be the alternative stats but the problem remains is that you are giving value to those stats and there's a risk that instead of giving players anything, you give players the same thing in different names with slight tweaks.

It really is something that can't be figured out through prioritizing one aspect IMO and that's what makes it scary to implement much less to talk about. If you want to make a pure anti-grind game, you can always get away with that without alternative growth mechanics through items but that doesn't mean it's an alternative. If you want to introduce alternative growth without stats, you may have to overhaul the whole engine like the pet system in Black & White that involves slapping (literally using the mouse to slap) the pet in order to modify their growth.

There's also the manner of whether the players will not only accept it but accept it in more games. I think the closest to an alternative system that have ever proven it's merit to that design is the money based, "buy this move" system that some games uses and I only say this because it's something that gives choices at level-up as opposed to worrying about the actual design. All you need is moves that have different implications to the difficulty if you buy something earlier versus if you buy something later.
author=LockeZ
Soul Shepherd is an (unfinished) RMXP game that has a very minimal effect from levels. It's heavily Shin Megami Tensei influenced; you obtain souls as drops from enemies, and the souls give you those enemies' powers. At level 99 using only the starting souls, you can't beat the second miniboss (normally fought around level 6-7). In fact, the biggest effect of level is probably that it increases the cost of inns. ;)
Thanks for mentioning this game. I decided to give it a go, and I find it to be really fun and challenging.
Why not use a skill tree instead of the traditional str, dex, end...

Every time you kill something/complete a quest/over come a challenge or trap etc... you gain a skill point(s), then you use them to upgrade your skills. Some could be spells, others the character's ability with a weapon and so on.

Level zero in a skill means that you don't know how to use it, level 1 is only basic knowledge, level 2 grants better use of the skill...
And level 10(or more) would be complete mastery of the skill.

There are a few ways to modify this but you get the general idea.
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