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PEOPLE ARE CHILDISH WHEN IT COMES TO CRITISIM
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Jparker1984
2008
Jparker1984
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CloseYou know, this topic was sparked when I saw more then ten games that had some constructive criticism. Now mind you, I know it can be a bummer when people report negative feedback, but the games I am talking about had relatively nice constructive criticism. People are all for replying to comments that are full of good feedback, but the minute they get constructive criticism or anything negative they wont reply. I just don't get it, isn't that the whole point of posting your games online.
I mean, no one is able to post a PERFECT game where everything is all sunshine and rainbows. Here is the funny thing. A lot of times, the people who don't reply to constructive criticism are the type of people to go say the very same things they wont reply to, to someone else. I just don't get it.
I mean, no one is able to post a PERFECT game where everything is all sunshine and rainbows. Here is the funny thing. A lot of times, the people who don't reply to constructive criticism are the type of people to go say the very same things they wont reply to, to someone else. I just don't get it.
Dyhalto
7536
It's natural. People can't accept criticism for at least some period in their life. Those who want to succeed learn to deal with it.
It's especially bad these days with all this Feel Good shit going around in public schools, where kids aren't allowed to fail and ones without down syndrome get an "A for effort". Suddenly the kid enters the real world, and we don't have the time for their sub-standard work.
It's especially bad these days with all this Feel Good shit going around in public schools, where kids aren't allowed to fail and ones without down syndrome get an "A for effort". Suddenly the kid enters the real world, and we don't have the time for their sub-standard work.
I find it hard to discuss a problem on such abstract level. I can't see what you're talking about as a trend, and unless you can mention some specific examples... ?
Despain
415
I can't see what you're talking about as a trend
it runs rampant in other communities, idk about this one because i spend little time looking at the projects section. but among all the anime kids it's a "deviantart mindset" that makes them think everything they do is flawless and should be treated as such.
conversations like this are commonplace.
kid: posts a horrible sprite
a few posts follow up and tell him that it's excellent and he should do more without giving him any kind of legitimate feedback.
me: yeah your sprite is bad and here is why: blah blah. you can fix it by doing blah blah. good luck.
then inevitably a few more posts will follow up telling me that i am trolling and being rude and then the OP kid will claim that he's giving up spriting forever because he needs the support of the community.
author=DespainI can't see what you're talking about as a trendit runs rampant in other communities, idk about this one because i spend little time looking at the projects section. but among all the anime kids it's a "deviantart mindset" that makes them think everything they do is flawless and should be treated as such.
conversations like this are commonplace.
kid: posts a horrible sprite
a few posts follow up and tell him that it's excellent and he should do more without giving him any kind of legitimate feedback.
me: yeah your sprite is bad and here is why: blah blah. you can fix it by doing blah blah. good luck.
then inevitably a few more posts will follow up telling me that i am trolling and being rude and then the OP kid will claim that he's giving up spriting forever because he needs the support of the community.
Oh, and this is technically WAY off topic, but this post reminded me of stuff on youtube going on, except it's the other way around. You know Justin Bieber right? Well, people just hate him because they are either jealous of him being famous before them, think he's gay, or just plain out hate his music. But wherever I go, even if it ISN'T a Justin Bieber video, I see hate comments about Justin Bieber! And the fans are all fighting back telling them that they are stupid, or wrong, but they are doing it the wrong way, I just tell them it's not a Justin Bieber video, it starts a fight, I'm called gay or a troll, then we move on. Really, it is a bad way, but I'm just trying to prove a point, not tell them they're stupid for the way they think.
Meanwhile, back on topic, but relating to the same subject. What about people who are timed? Remember Fire Woman, I actually replied to the constructive criticism, but not in a good way, I asked questions like "What's wrong with this?", or "What's wrong about the quality of my pictures?", people were even telling me to fix the problems, in my mind that was the equivalent to ,"Redo this shit!", and I didn't have enough time with a week left to "redo this shit", so you see, time constraints an also be a reason, because if someone is telling you to fix something, and you don't have enough time, what's going to be your response?
DespainI can't see what you're talking about as a trendit runs rampant in other communities, idk about this one because i spend little time looking at the projects section. but among all the anime kids it's a "deviantart mindset" that makes them think everything they do is flawless and should be treated as such.
conversations like this are commonplace.
kid: posts a horrible sprite
a few posts follow up and tell him that it's excellent and he should do more without giving him any kind of legitimate feedback.
me: yeah your sprite is bad and here is why: blah blah. you can fix it by doing blah blah. good luck.
then inevitably a few more posts will follow up telling me that i am trolling and being rude and then the OP kid will claim that he's giving up spriting forever because he needs the support of the community.
The truth of this, especially the last paragraph, makes me LOLOLOLOLOL. Nice summary.
***
Also, I can in no way take this actually-serious topic seriously. I only initially came in here to tell you that you spelled "criticism" wrong in the topic title.
lulz.
J, I always unfailingly reply to my criticism (and not always super-defensively, even!) and that is WHY I have been called childish in the past. So I actually was thinking that making no response was possibly the MORE mature thing to do. Now I just don't know.
Although, have you considered the possibility that after releasing a game, this mysterious they just stopped checking the site? That after releasing the work, they put some distance between themselves and it? This is something I've been advised to do frequently and it doesn't seem like a bad idea.
wow son wherever you hang out is mad soft compared to rmn.
Craze if your vile villainy continues unabated I will have no chance but to become an unlikely true hero and rise to stop you.
The entire INTERNET is at WAR over JUSTIN BIEBER.
Although, have you considered the possibility that after releasing a game, this mysterious they just stopped checking the site? That after releasing the work, they put some distance between themselves and it? This is something I've been advised to do frequently and it doesn't seem like a bad idea.
conversations like this are commonplace.
kid: posts a horrible sprite
a few posts follow up and tell him that it's excellent and he should do more without giving him any kind of legitimate feedback.
me: yeah your sprite is bad and here is why: blah blah. you can fix it by doing blah blah. good luck.
then inevitably a few more posts will follow up telling me that i am trolling and being rude and then the OP kid will claim that he's giving up spriting forever because he needs the support of the community.
wow son wherever you hang out is mad soft compared to rmn.
Also, I can in no way take this actually-serious topic seriously. I only initially came in here to tell you that you spelled "criticism" wrong in the topic title.
lulz.
Craze if your vile villainy continues unabated I will have no chance but to become an unlikely true hero and rise to stop you.
Oh, and this is technically WAY off topic, but this post reminded me of stuff on youtube going on, except it's the other way around. You know Justin Bieber right? Well, people just hate him because they are either jealous of him being famous before them, think he's gay, or just plain out hate his music. But wherever I go, even if it ISN'T a Justin Bieber video, I see hate comments about Justin Bieber! And the fans are all fighting back telling them that they are stupid, or wrong, but they are doing it the wrong way, I just tell them it's not a Justin Bieber video, it starts a fight, I'm called gay or a troll, then we move on. Really, it is a bad way, but I'm just trying to prove a point, not tell them they're stupid for the way they think.
The entire INTERNET is at WAR over JUSTIN BIEBER.
This is why I endorse the Honey/Stick approach when it comes to critiques. Not criticism, critique. The good twin. The Honey/Stick approach is as follows: if you're going to say something 'bad' then soften it with something good. Hit them with a stick, then give them honey.
"I think you need to redo the roof tiles a bit and the hair on that characterset is really weird. I do like the colours you chose, though. They look really nice!"
Of course, taking critique can be hard if it's worded in a way that you may think is offensive. I just try to remember that not everyone is as eloquent at expressing themselves as I am and let the 'negative' shit slide. /snob :P
Another idea when taking critique is to make a list of the points their making and ignore the language used to convey them.
"This is shit. You've fucked up the ceiling and the hair looks like someone shat on it twice. Try again, dickface!" *
- Hair has issues
- Might need to rework the ceiling
- Note to mods about dickery
Ah revenge, best served on ice. ^.~
*Note that no-one I know of has received feedback like that before. This is just an example.
"I think you need to redo the roof tiles a bit and the hair on that characterset is really weird. I do like the colours you chose, though. They look really nice!"
Of course, taking critique can be hard if it's worded in a way that you may think is offensive. I just try to remember that not everyone is as eloquent at expressing themselves as I am and let the 'negative' shit slide. /snob :P
Another idea when taking critique is to make a list of the points their making and ignore the language used to convey them.
"This is shit. You've fucked up the ceiling and the hair looks like someone shat on it twice. Try again, dickface!" *
- Hair has issues
- Might need to rework the ceiling
- Note to mods about dickery
Ah revenge, best served on ice. ^.~
*Note that no-one I know of has received feedback like that before. This is just an example.
author=Liberty
post
Nice post. Going along with this, I think the issue sometimes gets confused. It's actually kind of rare that someone flat out rejects criticism because they don't like getting their feelings hurt. Most of the time, their feelings aren't hurt, but they disagree with the criticism and then sometimes make the mistake of responding to it defensively.
What it comes down to is... sometimes people expect you ADOPT their criticism, and accuse you of "not taking criticism" because you don't automatically change what you're doing just because someone suggested something.. No one is obligated to adopt criticism, ever, even if it's absolutely correct. That's the author's prerogative. That said, I and most people do strongly consider all criticism, because no one is immune to the "getting too close to your own project" phenomenon, and you need outside, objective feedback.
I just read that the ideal ratio of nice:critiques is 5:1, to maintain an amicable business relationship (just read it on LinkedIn!) It is known as the Positive Feedback Ratio:
So take that for what you will!
The same is true at the office, where you’re often connected for years in relationships with people who can either become wary of your criticisms or eager to give you their best effort. Catch people doing good things. Never miss a chance to say something nice, even if you feel a little silly. Then when you have feedback on areas to improve, they‘ll really listen. It may be hard to manage to the 5:1 ratio at the office, but you should be mindful of the balance.
So take that for what you will!
Sometimes people won't get your genius in thinking that a slow-walking, bullet-flying, action RPG is just what the world needs more of. Sometimes you'll be 'persecuted' by the community because you refuse to learn how to use chips correctly. After all, that stool looks near enough like a table, right? And that roof tile makes an awesome floor! Who needs walls anyway!? That's not lava, it's a red carpet... a SHINY red carpet!
Getting too wrapped up in your game can sometimes harm it. You need to look at the advice you're given and decide whether or not you think it's worth taking.
There have been some cases where people wouldn't listen when told by many, many people that they needed to fix some issues. One major one comes to mind right off the bat where the game had a bug that got you stuck with no way to continue. The creator wouldn't listen and was determined not to change the issue at all.
This kind of behaviour resulted in a lot of arguing and disharmony, which was only settled by the banning of said person. If they'd just listened to the critique and changed that one aspect of the game - which really was a bug - then there wouldn't have been a problem. Site unity would have prevailed and the person in question would have learned much more.
A good rule of thumb is to try and see any critique from the other person's angle. If it messes with gameplay - in that it stops progression - it needs to change. If it's aesthetic, think on it. If more than 5% of your player base mentions it, it might be an idea to check it out or change it some way.
I say 5% because in most cases games are played by a lot of people, but only the minority says anything. If you've a game with 200 downloads, sometimes you're lucky to get 10 people comment. If five of those ten people are drawing your attention to something, it might be an idea to check it out.
It's a good thing - it means they've taken the time to want your game to get better. This means they see something in it worth playing!
Getting too wrapped up in your game can sometimes harm it. You need to look at the advice you're given and decide whether or not you think it's worth taking.
There have been some cases where people wouldn't listen when told by many, many people that they needed to fix some issues. One major one comes to mind right off the bat where the game had a bug that got you stuck with no way to continue. The creator wouldn't listen and was determined not to change the issue at all.
This kind of behaviour resulted in a lot of arguing and disharmony, which was only settled by the banning of said person. If they'd just listened to the critique and changed that one aspect of the game - which really was a bug - then there wouldn't have been a problem. Site unity would have prevailed and the person in question would have learned much more.
A good rule of thumb is to try and see any critique from the other person's angle. If it messes with gameplay - in that it stops progression - it needs to change. If it's aesthetic, think on it. If more than 5% of your player base mentions it, it might be an idea to check it out or change it some way.
I say 5% because in most cases games are played by a lot of people, but only the minority says anything. If you've a game with 200 downloads, sometimes you're lucky to get 10 people comment. If five of those ten people are drawing your attention to something, it might be an idea to check it out.
It's a good thing - it means they've taken the time to want your game to get better. This means they see something in it worth playing!
Max McGee
Craze if your vile villainy continues unabated I will have no chance but to become an unlikely true hero and rise to stop you.
MOG is the superhero! But considering that machinations to disrupt you are already underway... you better watch yourself, Legionaire.
I think there's good and bad constructive criticism, and a lot of people either don't understand what the difference is, or don't care to, but it boils down to this:
Constructive (Let's start off with a dictionary definition, because the wording is very important)
-constructing or tending to construct; helping to improve; promoting further development or advancement (opposed to destructive)
Let's say two people both decided to review a game they didn't like, but take different approaches in their reviews.
One person wrote out a long sensible review that pointed out all of their likes and dislikes of the game, and addressed things they would like to see changed. The tone of this first review is calm, collected, and in no way insults the creator or their work--even if there was something the writer thought deserved insulting. This is what's considered "constructive" criticism, and this kind of review gives the creator a ton of useful feedback to work from. From an artist's standpoint, this is the ideal type of criticism to receive, but it's not necessarily going to generate buzz or give the writer any recognition.
The second person decides they're going to take a different approach with their review and openly insults things they didn't like about the game in a harsh, but witty manner. While this gives the writer some kind of kick, it doesn't necessarily provide constructive feedback to the game creator, and instead ends up insulting them. The textbook response to this is that the creator lashes out to defend their artistic position in some way, which is exactly what the writer is looking for--buzz. This is essentially the same thing as Roger Ebert giving a movie a one-star review specifically in an entertaining fashion, or writing an article about how games shouldn't be considered 'art.' Relating back to my definition, this is considered "destructive" criticism. It doesn't necessarily give the creator good feedback, but generates a whole lot of buzz in order to cater to the writer.
Your review is either going to fall into one of these two categories, which will either evoke a positive response from the game creator, or a childish one. Ultimately it's up to what the writer wants people to hear, not what the creator wants to hear.
Constructive (Let's start off with a dictionary definition, because the wording is very important)
-constructing or tending to construct; helping to improve; promoting further development or advancement (opposed to destructive)
Let's say two people both decided to review a game they didn't like, but take different approaches in their reviews.
One person wrote out a long sensible review that pointed out all of their likes and dislikes of the game, and addressed things they would like to see changed. The tone of this first review is calm, collected, and in no way insults the creator or their work--even if there was something the writer thought deserved insulting. This is what's considered "constructive" criticism, and this kind of review gives the creator a ton of useful feedback to work from. From an artist's standpoint, this is the ideal type of criticism to receive, but it's not necessarily going to generate buzz or give the writer any recognition.
The second person decides they're going to take a different approach with their review and openly insults things they didn't like about the game in a harsh, but witty manner. While this gives the writer some kind of kick, it doesn't necessarily provide constructive feedback to the game creator, and instead ends up insulting them. The textbook response to this is that the creator lashes out to defend their artistic position in some way, which is exactly what the writer is looking for--buzz. This is essentially the same thing as Roger Ebert giving a movie a one-star review specifically in an entertaining fashion, or writing an article about how games shouldn't be considered 'art.' Relating back to my definition, this is considered "destructive" criticism. It doesn't necessarily give the creator good feedback, but generates a whole lot of buzz in order to cater to the writer.
Your review is either going to fall into one of these two categories, which will either evoke a positive response from the game creator, or a childish one. Ultimately it's up to what the writer wants people to hear, not what the creator wants to hear.
Jparker1984
2008
Dang I cant keep up with you people posting, I could try and list a few examples, but it will have to wait. I am about to leave for work.
This is why I added the 'be professional' section to my Reviewing for Dummies article.
There will always be people who can't even take constructive criticism in a good way, but hopefully they grow out of such tendencies sooner or later. Whatever the case, giving feedback in a neutral manner is about the best you can do to help anyone.
from article
- be professional
This is possibly the most important part of writing your review. This isn’t just some comment on the game page or forum. This is an article that others will look to for advice. It should be presented in an unbiased manner and taken seriously. That doesn’t mean you can’t have any humor in it; a little light-hearted joking can keep it from being too dull. But this is not your stand-up act. No matter how laughably bad the game may be, you’re not here to tear it apart with witty remarks. Your review should contain no personal attacks against the game or its creator, and curse words simply don’t belong. If you thought the game was a piece of shit, don’t just say so, but don’t sugarcoat it too much either. State politely you felt the game was lacking, and then explain the reasons why. It’s not that hard. Just have confidence in what you’re saying without being a jerk.
There will always be people who can't even take constructive criticism in a good way, but hopefully they grow out of such tendencies sooner or later. Whatever the case, giving feedback in a neutral manner is about the best you can do to help anyone.
I can comprehend the reasoning to being a baby about criticism. When I originally joined GamingW, and launched Take Down Legacy on the internet, I was flamed for making a shitty game. The only reason I made TD was to make my friends IRL laugh. So did I care about graphic consistency? Nope. I was working on a shitty laptop with a mousepad. Did I care about anything really designwise? Not really. It was a silly story parodying Kingdom Hearts and shit.
However, it was good for a laugh with my friends. It wasn't about being perfect. So to be ripped apart when I pretty much.just came in off the street with my shitty game was just rage inducing. I was too green to understand the word "standards". So I can understand where people flip at harsh criticism for the most part. Especially if they're young and new to RPGmaker.
However, it was good for a laugh with my friends. It wasn't about being perfect. So to be ripped apart when I pretty much.just came in off the street with my shitty game was just rage inducing. I was too green to understand the word "standards". So I can understand where people flip at harsh criticism for the most part. Especially if they're young and new to RPGmaker.
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