REAL SOCIAL ISSUES IN VIDEOGAMES

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Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Persona 2: Innocent Sin has this dude, Eikichi Mishina (also known as Michelle/Michel):



He's a punk rock teenager who does his make-up and hair in the school bathrooms, then undoes it before going home to his conservative father. He's a fairly normal teenage kid (aside from fighting Hitler's baptized robots with a machine gun in his guitar case), dealing with his place in the world and how to get the most chicks. (Also, you should buy P2:IS's PSP remake, although ChaosProductions and I just bought the last copies off of Amazon...).

Eikichi is an RPG character who's dealing with real issues; this is not to demean "traditional" storylines in games, but even the minute details rarely seem to stray from the fantastic to the mundane. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not the balance needs to be shifted; what I want to know is what are some videogame takes on mundane issues done poorly and done well?
Since you used Persona 2 as an example, I feel I have to mention Persona 4.
I think many games tend to go the science fictional approach to talking about "social issues". Basically it takes something fantastical in order to be able to talk about subject that people don't like to talk about.

Of course the writing in most games is on the level of really bad science fiction and since science fiction generally is considered bad to begin with these issues are often handled pretty horribly.

I mean usually games are about big things. Racism, totalitarianism and all that fun stuff that things are made of. Just take any RPG's "moral choices". Bad writing really shines through in those (see: Any Bioware RPG), the choices are clear-cut and simple depending on whether you want to be good or evil. And in these there's often one of those lovely "racism" threads. (It's easier to deal with racism and cultural difference if it involves elves and aliens)

Most games seem to have some kind of "message". Even though I suppose most of them are macro-level messages, like "be nice" or larger philosophical things, rather than more intimate, personal issues.

It's basically the bad science-fiction writing way of heightening the stakes to ridiculous levels in order to feel something.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Cozzer
Since you used Persona 2 as an example, I feel I have to mention Persona 4.


No. (P3/4 are mundane issues heightened to awkwardly dramatic extremes, so as to make "I can't cook" stretch for ten chapters. P4 is a terrible example of just about anything except all of Kanji's outfits being hot (and Kanji's "amigay?" storyline is pretty bad too, yes).)

I think there are like thirty dead parents in P3, not sure.

Shinan: Agreed on the Bioware thing, although they're certainly not the only company that does it. And no, Bioware, calling the karma points "Paragon" and "Renegade" does not make you smarter.

Shinan
It's basically the bad science-fiction writing way of heightening the stakes to ridiculous levels in order to feel something.


But I'd feel more if it were personal and natural. ;_;
author=Craze
No. (P3/4 are mundane issues heightened to awkwardly dramatic extremes, so as to make "I can't cook" stretch for ten chapters. P4 is a terrible example of just about anything except all of Kanji's outfits being hot (and Kanji's "amigay?" storyline is pretty bad too, yes).)

You said "done poorly and done well".
Dudesoft
always a dudesoft, never a soft dude.
6309
Is that TFT?
Rhyme
Tear Harvester Rhyme
7582
author=Craze
No. (P3/4 are mundane issues heightened to awkwardly dramatic extremes, so as to make "I can't cook" stretch for ten chapters. P4 is a terrible example of just about anything except all of Kanji's outfits being hot (and Kanji's "amigay?" storyline is pretty bad too, yes).)


:< I thought Death/Hierophant of P4 was interesting
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Cozzer
Craze
No. (P3/4 are mundane issues heightened to awkwardly dramatic extremes, so as to make "I can't cook" stretch for ten chapters. P4 is a terrible example of just about anything except all of Kanji's outfits being hot (and Kanji's "amigay?" storyline is pretty bad too, yes).)
You said "done poorly and done well".

Yeah, but P2 is terrific. You lumped the two together without any explanation whatsoever. =P

Rhyme: Yeah, Hierophant was pretty good (...and Dojma is attractive, which helps). The actual execution of Justice/Hierophant was terrible, though (not their removal - that was fine - but the "social skills" aspect of the game and its forced nature was awful). I don't remember who Death was.
Decky
I'm a dog pirate
19645
To be honest, that aspect of Persona has turned me off from playing the games. Are they all done poorly?
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
All of the latest Modern Warfare/Battlefield type games (specifically but not all-inclusively: all three Modern Warfare games, and Battlefield 3) have made some fairly crude efforts to engage with real-life issues (terrorism, dirty bombs, you-tube execution videos, completely unjustified wars in the Middle East, etcetera) but I feel like they haven't really engaged with the subject matter in a meaningful way by choosing a side or making a statement or even settling on a tone or milieu. It sort of wildly careens from things that are vaguely trying to make some kind of a political statement about something to things that are just dumb hollywood blockbuster michael bay action movie explosions. Ultimately, the games don't really have anything to say except that "war is TERRIBLE and TOTALLY SWEET".

I am one of very, very few people who actually plays those games mostly for the single player campaign so I have probably thought about this a lot more than Joe Average Gamer.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Deckiller
To be honest, that aspect of Persona has turned me off from playing the games. Are they all done poorly?

P3/4 are done poorly. Persona 1 is just dull/archaic, P2 is excellent (...both Persona 2s; Eikichi specifically is from Persona 2: Innocent Sin. P2: Eternal Punishment deals more with adults.)

Get P2:IS for PSP ~
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I was certain this topic was going to be about racism against elves and I'm glad to see no one was obnoxious enough to bring that up.

Wait. Shit. Sorry.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Fuck elves. Filthy tree-humping dandelion eaters.

Seriously.
DE
*click to edit*
1313
This guy looks like he's about to fall down. Is it even humanly possible to assume a pose like that? Just curious.
Decky
I'm a dog pirate
19645
author=Craze
Deckiller
To be honest, that aspect of Persona has turned me off from playing the games. Are they all done poorly?
P3/4 are done poorly. Persona 1 is just dull/archaic, P2 is excellent (...both Persona 2s; Eikichi specifically is from Persona 2: Innocent Sin. P2: Eternal Punishment deals more with adults.)

Get P2:IS for PSP ~


Don't have PSP :(
I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution did this fairly well. Obviously, it has the sci-fi treatment slapped on as a topcoat, but a lot of the stuff underneath is essentially a mirror for the world today. It feels like a natural outgrowth of current problems, with applied complications of widespread cybernetics, and the attending machinations of big business to make a grab for control.

A lot of people call Bioware's writing bad, or generic. I get that, to a degree, since they have basically released the same story, with minor cosmetic alterations, for the last decade or so. Every now and then though, you get a "hmmm" moment. The question about genetically modifying the widow's baby in Mass Effect was one.

My main problem with Bioware's writing is that the "evil/darkside/renegade" options are always so clearly defined. In life, a lot of bad decisions can be made in the service of positive outcomes. "I kill you because I'm bored. Die." in a Dolph Lundgren affect is nowhere near as complex or fun as, "You're just trying to provide for your family, I'll let you go." and later the guy gets cornered by law enforcement for another crime and ends up killing a few people. "That would be on you, hero." Delayed bad karma, buddy.

I'd love it if there were a game where you could simultaneously choose what you want to say, and then what the character is really thinking. Like "I hate to say it, but I'm authorizing the enhanced interrogation of this terror suspect." is the dialog choice picked, but then the player gets the option (with thought bubble graphic, perhaps) 'That'll teach this son of a bitch what happens when he tries to pull that shit in MY country,' vs 'I know this is wrong, but, it might save a few lives.'

I don't know if that makes much sense. I'd like to be able to SAY whatever in a conversation, but have my actual karmic swing (if applied in said game) occur based on what I actually do.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
As a general, sweeping statement: 'karma/morality' systems in videogames are deeply, deeply, deeply flawed by a childlike overemphasis on black/white good/bad duality filled with hilarious loopholes (STEALING from Certain characters in Fallout: New Vegas is WRONG whereas KILLING THEM is MORALLY RIGHT AND CORRECT).

If D&D's retarded alignment system is deeper and more nuanced than your morality system, you're in fucking trouble.
Yeah it's mainly due to the idea that the game is making a judgement on you that doesn't really match up to the real world. In GTA if you rob a bank or kill someone in broad day light your warning level goes up or w/e that's against the law, the police go after you, that makes sense. It's the same as the black/white system except the context is changed and youre not left with this empty feeling of disagreement with the game because a computer is calling you EVIL.

so i guess choices should just be choices and not be weighted on some arbitrary morality meter that's no different from an exp bar.
I thought Persona 3 and 4 were very well done in terms of portraying actual teenagers. They were certainly leagues above most JRPG teens who given a sword and sent to fight the demon lord when they turn 15. I never attended a Japanese high school but I still identified with the main characters and their issues. Who hasn't had to deal with a part of their personality that they don't want to accept? Yes it usually does not culminate in a huge battle with a physical, demonic manifestation of your other self, but the issues were still very real.
author=Craze
Cozzer
Craze
No. (P3/4 are mundane issues heightened to awkwardly dramatic extremes, so as to make "I can't cook" stretch for ten chapters. P4 is a terrible example of just about anything except all of Kanji's outfits being hot (and Kanji's "amigay?" storyline is pretty bad too, yes).)
You said "done poorly and done well".
Yeah, but P2 is terrific. You lumped the two together without any explanation whatsoever. =P

Rhyme: Yeah, Hierophant was pretty good (...and Dojma is attractive, which helps). The actual execution of Justice/Hierophant was terrible, though (not their removal - that was fine - but the "social skills" aspect of the game and its forced nature was awful). I don't remember who Death was.

Death is the old woman but I thought Yosuke's (Magician for those who want to know) was pretty realistic specially on how he tries to handle Saki's death. In fact they have different reactions based on how much you complete their Social Links. Like Yosuke being plagued with it and specially after finding out the truth in the "final" dungeon and all that stuff shows how much he's trying to move on and failing because he has nobody there for him. And his entire sexuality issues.

Yes I'm a Yosuke fan only because I felt that he was the most normal out of them (and other obvious stuff). >:c
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