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vacant sky's failure and the trends of selling rtp to stupid humans

  • TFT
  • 06/25/2012 02:34 PM
  • 39202 views
vacant sky awakening recently tried to "kickstart" it's way to success by generating 20k from people via crowdfunding. "reinventing" classical rpgs. a very bold thing to say, almost as bold as penny arcade's rain precipice for darkness saying in a lot of way's saying their game is visually "superior" than snes rpgs. first of all, fuck you dude, please do not make these ridiculous statements, especially when penny arcade is throwing the least amount of money to create


ff6 edits: check
grandia battle system: check
hand drawn images not blending with pixels: check

i totally agree. it is vastly superior than:


-bird-

reinventing rpgs. with the crowdfunding goal of 20k. is 20k a lot? i would assume it is by any standard. let's take a look at the trailer, and you decide.


so you're treated with a lot of voice acting and then anime images panning across the screen. fair enough, that's not bad at all. i can let the anime slide because that is just, this generations standard for "art". the problem lies when you see actual gameplay. not only do you have charset move up, it's so hollow, so uninspiring that it's just, i couldn't believe this thing is trying to generate 20k. the battle system is unfinished there is absolutely no sneak peak in the trailer at all for the "reinventing" of rpgs. infact, the video software that does the impressive visual effects is more entertaining than the game itself.

i will tell you how much rtp move up generated just by this trailer alone. almost 10k. now, if the set amount is 20k, which is ridiculous, and if the guy who created this game (this is a team effort btw lol wut) does the crowd funding again, and drops it to 10k, you know he's just trying to get any kind of money for whatever reason. someone actually asked what the money would be used for and the reply was deadspace.

where is the reinventing? all i see is a guy trying to slip through the cracks trying to get a ton of fucking money for as little work as possible. i'm going to say this right now, because i truly believe this, and that is i want rm designer to succeed. i want nothing more than to see these amazingly creative people get taken seriously. but when we have guys like this saying you're reinventing rpg's with rtp garbage, and try to sell it commercially you're just apart of the problem.

if you're going to crowdfund. and if you're going to ask for 20k. that's a REALLY big step, and that's a really big deal. and you know what dude, the least you, or anyone else can do is put the fucking effort behind it. get a prototype, make the game on your own, stop using stock resources not even created for your game. it's a joke, man, that you have the melons to actually post a game like that asking for 20k.

you might be thinking, tft, get out baddie, fair enough, but i'm not specifically addressing vacant sky. let's take a look unemployment quest.


generated 10k. and for what? the guy has 10k, okay. he isn't even humanly capable of getting a composer to fit the games musical quality. that should be a red flag right there. this guy is so bad, he didn't even take the time and effort to do anything with the battle set up, yeah, he used the default "everything". why exactly is he being rewarded for this? 10 for a faceset with a weird rape face.

author=ciel
Anyone can produce something resembling an "old school" game in RPG Maker within several seconds. This does not mean they are an "indie" game developer, or capable of a level of design and production worthy of anyone's pledge. Before supporting a project, ascertain that the developer is communicating clear, specific ideas about his design and vision for the game. Vague, tired platitudes about how "classic" or "traditional" it's going to be are not a guarantee of quality. Design philosophy, gameplay specifics, and solid reasoning are things to look for when determining which projects to fund. Use your eyes and brain before throwing money at any kid with a copy of RPG Maker. Quality, skill, and dedication should be evident.

******************

A comment the creator made on this video and deleted:

Dude, why does my game's success make you so upset? If you? use RPG Maker you should be aware that it takes more than 30 seconds to craft something worth playing. And charging $5 for a copy is considerably less than most commercial RPG Maker games. I'm sorry my game upsets you so much. But it's not like I ever said it wasn't made in RPG Maker and the ability to sell RPG Maker games has long been one of the selling points of the program.

--

Even if you say it's RPG Maker, most people aren't aware of what that entails and don't know that the content you are showing already exists in the engine when you click "New Project". They just see something that looks like a "Classic RPG" and can't discern between pre-made content and a genuine effort. Asking for money when you can't even be bothered to change something as simple as the default monster formations is shameful, and presenting it as your own work (for which you expect to be compensated) is insincere. Buyer beware, etc.


unemployment quest guy, fuck you bro. people like you getting carried is the reason vacant sky thinks it can too.

here it comes. the grand daddy of all. holy shit it just might blow your socks off. i'm scared to even write about it, because it's so taboo. echoes of eternia. the mother of all crowdfunding scams when it comes to rpgmaker. where does one even begin? i... i can't. i can't do this to someone who might read this. it's just too painful. i refuse.

since theres no youtube, theres no official website for this i would post the crowdfunding link, but it is just too disgusting. 40k friends. 40k.

http://i.imgur.com/UJjGP.jpg
oh my god, dude, stop hiding your shitty game behind clever wording! now, you're probably saying to yourself. lolujelly bro. sure, why not. let's get that out of the way. i am jealous that people can produce no effort and no work, and get paid like a boss. i'm not jealous of their work though. um, it's just that there is all this weird stuff happening outside the rm community, i feel like this should be broadcasted to you because it feels like rm designers live on another planet sometimes.

even to the moon was a stretch. it was an alright concept, considering it had 0 gameplay. and the fact that it lagged so bad on my brand new computer.

look man, it sounds harsh, but believe me, i love indie games, i love games in general. i love the concept of creation and creativity. the power to do incredible things. i don't have a problem with people who want to toy around and make rtp games and using the resources available to them to make a project. i do have a problem with people who think they should be getting 40k for doing so.

if you're prepared to make that step, put the fucking effort into the game you assholes. i know the circle jerk community gives the illusion that your game is the new final fantasy 6, but it's not dude, there are people in the indie scene doing crazy amazing things while you're still using rtp tiles.

i love indie, i love supporting games. fez was made by 2 people, super meat boy is made by a few people. iconoclasts, let's talk about iconoclasts.


one guy, managed to create amazing music for himself, the most bitchin' graphics, incredible gameplay, and it's a unique experience. this should be the standard, but it's not. games like this should be funded. and it's a tragedy if it isn't.

as long as these games like unemployment quest keep getting successful, it just keeps pushing that idea that rm games are infact shitty, and a joke. there are many games here that i would easily pay 5 bucks to experience. but those games also put to time and the effort to be different and unique, even with the resource restriction, and you can tell the difference in quality.

if you think i'm a dick, don't agree, i'm jelly, etc, ect. fair enough. i respect your opinions, that's totally your right. i wouldn't blame you.

if these rants interest you, there will be plenty more at

http://audiomew.tumblr.com/

Posts

Ciel
an aristocrat of rpgmaker culture
367
author=chana
This the most unexepected and amusing defense of monarchy I have encountered, it shows you must be an American. You forget that capitalism is not the opposite of monarchy but democracy, and the thousands of potential artists coming from poor backgrounds who never got a chance to become what they wanted, probably did not even have the chance to know they wanted it. Democracy being also the access to culture for all, beleive me, things are much better like they are now than under a governing monarchy. Also amusing, so you consider yourself as an aristocrat of rpgmaker culture?

capitalism is the opposite of democracy. it is a monarchy based on financial power (lobbying etc). i am not an american. americans predominantly believe in the facade of democracy they have been told is real democracy. why would you think i am american because i stated that an aristocracy whose members are encouraged to be culturally sophisticated is healthy for the cultivation of good art, a fact categorically demonstrated in the 18th century. it was not a general defense of the concept of monarchy as a form of government or some sort of assertion of 'american' (???) thinking. i don't even know how you could have drawn this conclusion.

as you said i am sure there were people who would have liked the chance to become successful artists but weren't of sufficient stature, and that is regrettable, but that is a result of the social dichotomy of the time and not a failing of the culture's ability to discern good art from poor art, which is invaluable. i am not even sure why you brought that up because the point was not even remotely that everything about 1700s france is superior. i have noticed this weird problem with people where they are incapable of reading a body of text and discerning its meaning, and then formulate an impassioned riposte to an assertion that was never made. oh well.

author=Perihelion
Really? You're saying that this blog post is some kind of cultural critique that's intended to improve RM games?

all forms of communication between human beings develops society and culture. yes, even in 'cyber space'

author=Perihelion
And I don't know what to call this except malice, because this blog post just calls the games bad and makes vague, sarcastic comments about them without actually offering any useful or interesting insight. This post isn't about the games.

maybe you should take another look because his reasoning is clearly stated, even though the shortcomings addressed in the article should be evident to anyone through casual observation.

author=Perihelion
It's about insulting the developers, and it's sending the message that if you dare ask for money for an RPG Maker game, your fellow RM users will vilify you. Seriously, how is this improving the art form?

i don't know why you're talking about rpgmaker specifically. i don't think tft cares about who is or isn't using rpg maker. it's about general VIDEO GAMES MAKING. human beings make creative works, the end product is a result of the nature of the person making them. attacking the work is the same thing as attacking the creator. in this endless cultural process of sorting out what is good or what isn't, it is inevitable that certain individuals feel pressured or criticized.

he didn't even take the time and effort to do anything with the battle set up, yeah, he used the default "everything". why exactly is he being rewarded for this?

this is a wholly valid statement. it is an individual in a society addressing what he feels is a lapse in that society's cultural values, judgement, standards, and reasoning. that is the entire reason anybody writes anything ever. "why exactly is he being rewarded for this?" good question. oscar wilde wrote a billion essays and articles talking about shit he didn't like about english society. nietzsche wrote an entire book about how he believed widespread appreciation of wagner's music represented certain shortcomings in german culture.

when something is happening that seems problematic to the culture or society an individual exists in, he feels troubled and reacts by speaking out in opposition to what he perceives are the chief causes or perpetrators of the issue, because it is so important to him that he is willing to put his reputation on the line in an attempt to shape his society. in case i have to explain this, art is an incomparably influential force on societal and cultural development so that's one of the things that comes into contention again and again. this has been happening for thousands of years. i don't know why i have to explain this but this is rpgmaker.net so i guess i have to start at the basics every time.

the result is either that 'unemployment quest' guy is of sufficient conscience and taste to realize why he is being criticized and strive to create work more worthy of the tradition of the medium, and in the process his benefactors grow more educated about the art form and adjust their expectations accordingly. or, he feels offended and adamantly stands his ground, becoming part of an opposing school of thought which celebrates mediocrity and condemns virtue. it seems to me that you are angry about the standard course of civilizational development.
My goodness, people sure are missing everything about everything. I actually don't even know where to start with the huge number of bizarre misinterpretations of what's been posted in here, but maybe that's good since it saves me a bunch of typing and a migraine or two. I haven't read this thread since yesterday but I can't remember at all what is being argued about, other than some weird capitalism vs monarchy debate that never existed until a third party made it up. C'mon guys, reading comprehension, I know you can do this...
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
It always makes me really sad that the only time anyone here comes together as a "community" is when there's something to hate, some "other" to ostracize or deride. Whether it's commercial game makers, or VX users, or RTP users or whatever. When it comes time to tell someone they suck and what a disgrace they are, suddenly everyone emerges from the woodwork to get their kicks in.

When it comes time to support or celebrate something though, suddenly nobody can be bothered.

Most blogs here, even the good ones, get zero comments, but write a long diatribe telling everyone how much someone sucks and you'll get 60 "hell yeahs!" in short order.

I think a lot of this has to do with entitlement. We want all the success or rewards or whatever that someone else has but don't want to put in the work, so it's easier to just mock them and assert how much better and more deserving we are. That they somehow cheated, or gamed the system, or that their success is somehow illegitimate or exploitative. As a result, nobody here is willing to take a single step into a larger outside world, they just sit here and pretend that they're the better for it.

Hate-mongering is not a productive or effective means of "raising awareness."

(This is not directed at TFT specifically, just sort of a general response to this thread.)
I think your idea of "the community coming together" is very specific and vague. Because more times I see people doing contests, playing games, let's playing games, doing reviews more than this "type" of discussion cropping up. You're in an amateur community where people come and go.
Ciel
maybe you should take another look because his reasoning is clearly stated, even though the shortcomings addressed in the article should be evident to anyone through casual observation.

Complaining about the badness of something serves no purpose unless you actually identify why it's bad, and TFT's criticisms of EoE and VSA are very vague. However, TFT is entitled to complain about whatever he wants in whatever manner he wants--as long as the things he says are true, which is what I'm taking issue with.

Ciel
i don't know why you're talking about rpgmaker specifically. i don't think tft cares about who is or isn't using rpg maker.

The entire post was about RPG Maker games and is full of criticisms specific to RPG Maker, for example use of the RTP. However, this is irrelevant. Whether TFT is specifically criticizing RM games or not has nothing to do with my point.

Ciel
he didn't even take the time and effort to do anything with the battle set up, yeah, he used the default "everything". why exactly is he being rewarded for this?

this is a wholly valid statement.

<stuff>

Sure, I agree with that. I was never defending the Unemployment Quest guy. However, EoE and VSA are clearly not just using the default RM material straight out of the box, and it's misleading to imply they are.

I have no opinion about these games, and I couldn't care less what TFT thinks. He's entitled to his opinion. My point, which you're not responding to, is that in order for criticism to be valid, it must be true. TFT's post is full of criticisms that aren't true.

Specifically, these claims are false:
1. Using RTP graphics, even heavily customized ones, means you're lazy and that you've put no effort into your game. In fact, replacing them with commercial-quality graphics is completely unrealistic for any development team with a small budget, and graphics are only part of the huge amount of work that goes into developing a game.
2. Asking for $20,000 to fund the development of a game is ridiculous. Actually, $20,000 is a very small budget for a commercial game.
3. The VSA and EoE developers failed to say what they were using the funding for. EoE has their funding breakdown in the trailer, and VSA has theirs on their main Kickstarter page.

Please refer to my original post for more detail.
TFT
WHOA wow wow. two tails? that is a sexy idea...
357
everything i say is truth because i have won several misaos.

honestly, i don't care if you want to circle this over and over, i think countering what people say, because ultimately it's opinion.

1. rtp is starting content. rtp is for people who are lazy. you're lazy if you use rtp. that's fine, dude. THAT IS OKAY! think about it, you're using pre made content NOT designed for your "vision", but let's reward these people anyway, throw them money so they can pay off someone who can make something creative for them.

2. k. cool story bro.
3. hope you realize when he posted here someone flat out asked him what the money is for. he bailed(did not answer), then later inserted into his kickstarter after getting heat for it.

like i said, opinions, i might be right, i might be wrong,

I CREATED THE INTERNET I SAID SO. IT MUST BE TRUE!
Whether a game is terrible or not is certainly opinion, but certain things are not opinion.

1. I despise the RTP, but the thing is that replacing it for a long game is incredibly expensive and/or time-consuming. It's not laziness to use it; it's being realistic. Are you saying that if you can't afford the many tens of thousands of dollars it costs to get an entire RPG's worth of custom art, you just shouldn't make commercial games? Besides, how are all the popular RMN games that use rips any better? I mean yeah, they're not commercial projects, but the quality of a game has nothing to do with whether the creator is charging money for it.

The problem I have here is that you're representing it as laziness when it's not an issue of laziness, it's an issue of money. I have no problem with you thinking that it's wrong to sell games that use RTP, but it's not fair to suggest the developers can just magically get graphics from somewhere but are choosing not to.

2. Since you don't have a counter-argument, I guess I'll take that as agreement? I'm not saying the games are "worth" large amounts of money, because that's certainly subjective. I'm saying that the numbers they asked for are reasonable for the expenditures they listed. You can certainly consider the games not worth funding, but that doesn't mean they don't actually need the money for the things they said they needed it for. It's also not greed if they're investing the money directly into the game rather than pocketing it.

3. Do you have a link? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I prefer to see for myself. Also, that doesn't address the issue of the EoE funding, which he discussed in the trailer. Since you screencapped the trailer, I don't see how you could have missed it.
Ocean
Resident foodmonster
11367
but it's not fair to suggest the developers can just magically get graphics from somewhere but are choosing not to.
They can pitch the idea to some pixel artist who is starting out and they can do it, maybe for a lower budget. Or they can try making the graphics themselves, by trying it or keeping a simple style like... every other indie game developer who sells a game at least does. Or by knowing your constraints and not making a gigantic RPG if you don't have the means to. It looks bad on people using RPG Maker if people are associating it with people selling RTP games because of whatever excuse they want.

3. Do you have a link? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I prefer to see for myself.
Kickstarter doesn't show a "editted at x time" thing when someone edits it, but this did actually happen, just not something you can screen anymore.
Ocean
They can pitch the idea to some pixel artist who is starting out and they can do it, maybe for a lower budget. Or they can try making the graphics themselves, by trying it or keeping a simple style like... every other indie game developer who sells a game at least does. Or by knowing your constraints and not making a gigantic RPG if you don't have the means to. It looks bad on people using RPG Maker if people are associating it with people selling RTP games because of whatever excuse they want.

It's great if you can recruit a talented artist who will work for profit share, but if it happens, you got really lucky. It's completely unrealistic to expect someone to do tens of thousands of dollars of work essentially for free. And getting a bad artist to do it, or doing it yourself, is shooting yourself in the foot. Graphics are the first thing that potential customers judge you on, so if you actually want to sell copies, your game needs to be attractive. Unless you somehow manage to become a viral sensation, but don't count on that. Besides, art made by someone who isn't visually creative, which is the case for most non-artists, isn't going to bring any more soul to the project than premade graphics anyway. So why would any commercial developer spend a huge amount of time and/or money on something that will actively hurt his sales? Sure, you need custom graphics if your game isn't fantasy, but if the RTP is in the right general ballpark for what you want anyway, it can be edited to fit your vision. And the EoE and VSA guys have obviously edited it significantly.

I spent years shitting on the RTP and learning pixel art so I could make my own graphics, and then I actually tried to do it. I can tell you from first-hand experience how unrealistic making professional-quality graphics for a long game is when you're doing all the other development too. Good art is not easy to get, and even bad art is a ton of work. I don't really care if TFT hates the RTP and thinks commercial games shouldn't use it out of artistic purity or whatever. I think that's silly, but he's entitled to his opinion. I do have a problem with this idea that using the RTP is lazy and means you're a greedy money-grubber and that you don't care about the quality of your game and just want to scam people out of their money. It seems to me that people are using the RTP as justification for lobbing ad hominem attacks at the EoE and VSA developers when there are totally valid reasons for their decision, and that's what I have a problem with.

Ocean
Kickstarter doesn't show a "editted at x time" thing when someone edits it, but this did actually happen, just not something you can screen anymore.

Regardless of whether this happened the way TFT said it did, I don't see how editing funding into the Kickstarter is refusing to answer the question. Even if he didn't mention it originally, he still put it in when asked. How is that dishonest?
you guys are unable to envision the final collapse of capitalism? incredible!
In fact, replacing them with commercial-quality graphics is completely unrealistic for any development team with a small budget, and graphics are only part of the huge amount of work that goes into developing a game.

There are a great deal of games out there that prove this claim wrong. Cave Story being one of them. It was a game made by one person in 3 years. I doubt his development budget was anything close to 20,000 dollars.

There is a key thing to remember in cave story's case. The author had talent.

He was versatile and tried to do things he wasn't even familiar with (Music). Remember, the cost of your own labor is only time.

If you need 20,000 dollars to hire some random shmucks to perform most every aspect of game making for you; you're in the wrong field. The less people involved in the creation of a game, the better off it is; budgetary or otherwise.

2. Asking for $20,000 to fund the development of a game is ridiculous. Actually, $20,000 is a very small budget for a commercial game.

This might be relevant if the subject were commercial games. Maybe, I don't know though.

author=Nightblade
In fact, replacing them with commercial-quality graphics is completely unrealistic for any development team with a small budget, and graphics are only part of the huge amount of work that goes into developing a game.
There are a great deal of games out there that prove this claim wrong. Cave Story being one of them. It was a game made by one person in 3 years. I doubt his development budget was anything close to 20,000 dollars.

There is a key thing to remember in cave story's case. The author had talent.

He was versatile and tried to do things he wasn't even familiar with (Music). Remember, the cost of your own labor is only time.

If you need 20,000 dollars to hire some random shmucks to perform most every aspect of game making for you; you're in the wrong field. The less people involved in the creation of a game, the better off it is; budgetary or otherwise.

2. Asking for $20,000 to fund the development of a game is ridiculous. Actually, $20,000 is a very small budget for a commercial game.


This might be relevant if the subject were commercial games. Maybe, I don't know though.



What's up Nightblade! Long time no see. :p

I totally agree. It shouldn't take 20k to make a decent RPG using RPG Maker. There are far too many examples out there, that are IMO commercial quality but are free to all.

If you do go the route of collecting a large sum of money via Kickstarter, you should really use the money the correct way and make your supporters donations really count for something other than fattening your wallet. Some of the examples mentioned in the blog are guilty of this very thing.
author=Nightblade
In fact, replacing them with commercial-quality graphics is completely unrealistic for any development team with a small budget, and graphics are only part of the huge amount of work that goes into developing a game.
There are a great deal of games out there that prove this claim wrong. Cave Story being one of them. It was a game made by one person in 3 years. I doubt his development budget was anything close to 20,000 dollars.

There is a key thing to remember in cave story's case. The author had talent.

He was versatile and tried to do things he wasn't even familiar with (Music). Remember, the cost of your own labor is only time.

If you need 20,000 dollars to hire some random shmucks to perform most every aspect of game making for you; you're in the wrong field. The less people involved in the creation of a game, the better off it is; budgetary or otherwise.

2. Asking for $20,000 to fund the development of a game is ridiculous. Actually, $20,000 is a very small budget for a commercial game.

This might be relevant if the subject were commercial games. Maybe, I don't know though.

I'm pretty sure some people don't want to spend 3 years of their life working on a project, which is where budget4Speed becomes a valid argument,regardless of talent, taking on every aspect of a game by yourself, is a pretty time consuming labor, so I can totally see why people who want to see results faster, start looking for a budget to do so. Same goes with the "The less people involved,The better" statement,sure if you have full creative control it will be better, but it won't be a good option for people who want to see results faster, and I don't think wanting to see results faster,wanting to work on a team or requiring a budget to develop an indie game, equals being in the wrong field. you can argue that it is wiser to limit yourself to a smaller game and stuff, and I would agree with that, but in the end these are just opinions, If there's someone with enough ambition to tackle on a huge project, well. He's gonna look for any means available.

Anyways I still agree with most of what perihelion says, so no point in repeating stuff :P
As for any RM developer who plans to start a legit kickstarter, as long as there's a detailed breakdown on why you need money and how it will be used( detailed amounts to specific tasks) there shouldn't be a problem.
Nightblade
There are a great deal of games out there that prove this claim wrong. Cave Story being one of them. It was a game made by one person in 3 years. I doubt his development budget was anything close to 20,000 dollars.
Most commercial games are made by teams. That's a just fact. Not only could Pixel spend as much time making Cave Story as he wanted because he's a hobbyist, him being so multitalented is extremely anomalous; it's unrealistic to expect every person who wants to make a game to be highly talented in all areas of game development, and it's unrealistic to have one person do everything for a big project anyway since making games is a massive amount of work. Also, it took him five years to make Cave Story, not three, which is way too long for an indie commercial project if you're trying to make a business out of it.

If you need 20,000 dollars to hire some random shmucks to perform most every aspect of game making for you; you're in the wrong field.
See my original post.

The less people involved in the creation of a game, the better off it is; budgetary or otherwise.
Uh, what? Game studios exist for a reason.

This might be relevant if the subject were commercial games. Maybe, I don't know though.
All three games are commercial.

Zadok83
I totally agree. It shouldn't take 20k to make a decent RPG using RPG Maker.
See my original post.

If you do go the route of collecting a large sum of money via Kickstarter, you should really use the money the correct way and make your supporters donations really count for something other than fattening your wallet. Some of the examples mentioned in the blog are guilty of this very thing.
See my original post.
Most commercial games are made by teams.-


I'm sorry, let me stop you right there. Are we not talking about indie games? I'm pretty certain we are. Stop falling back on this. It's irrelevant.

That's a just fact. Not only could Pixel spend as much time making Cave Story as he wanted because he's a hobbyist, him being so multitalented is extremely anomalous; it's unrealistic to expect every person who wants to make a game to be highly talented in all areas of game development,


Pixel himself didn't have the technical prowess to create a game, so he LEARNED HOW TO. If you're too lazy to expand your skillset to realize your vision, you don't necessarily have to. If you're passionate about game development, you should be talented in AT LEAST ONE AREA of development, helping to cut costs. You are severely overestimating the amount of money it takes to make a worthwhile game. How much money did Dwarf Fortress need to get made? Did the creator have to commission some dingbat from deviant art for derivative anime character designs?


Uh, what? That doesn't even make sense. Game studios exist for a reason.


The entire purpose of the Independent development is to be free from larger studios and teams. What exactly ARE you trying to argue right now?

See my original post.


This does not bear repeating. Stop it.
*sigh* Nobody cares about art anymore.

Stupid; this whole world...
Most commercial games are made by teams.-

I'm sorry, let me stop you right there. Are we not talking about indie games? I'm pretty certain we are. Stop falling back on this. It's irrelevant.

That's a just fact. Not only could Pixel spend as much time making Cave Story as he wanted because he's a hobbyist, him being so multitalented is extremely anomalous; it's unrealistic to expect every person who wants to make a game to be highly talented in all areas of game development,

Pixel himself didn't have the technical prowess to create a game, so he LEARNED HOW TO. If you're too lazy to expand your skillset to realize your vision, you don't necessarily have to. If you're passionate about game development, you should be talented in AT LEAST ONE AREA of development, helping to cut costs. You are severely overestimating the amount of money it takes to make a worthwhile game. How much money did Dwarf Fortress need to get made? Did the creator have to commission some dingbat from deviant art for derivative anime character designs?


Uh, what? That doesn't even make sense. Game studios exist for a reason.

The entire purpose of the Independent development is to be free from larger studios and teams. What exactly ARE you trying to argue right now?

See my original post.

This does not bear repeating. Stop it.

People made games before crowdfunding, great games. Having a bloated budget is not necessary.

Crowd funding a wonderful thing, its just being abused.
author=perihelion
You know how much this game cost to make? $32,000. That covers paying contractors, business expenses, and the developer paying himself a small salary over the six-month development period. (source) In case you think that's some freakish anomaly, according to this site, an average iPhone game costs $10,000 to $125,000 to make depending on complexity.

You're just throwing out numbers holy shit. Vacant Sky was not going to be a mobile game. It has no mobile costs. His game is for PC as that is the RM platform at the moment. He was using rtp graphics and had some custom graphical art. The graphical art costs are minuscule, I'll explain below. You're exaggerating beyond belief and I can just tell right away you don't know what you're talking about. As for the XNA and Monogame part, this is an admittedly expensive route to take. The issue I have is that I'm not really taking this game seriously at this point, if he wanted to do this he should have mentioned how he planned to make this jump. His description about the funding is lacking a lot of detail, important details. I feel that this should remain an RM game based off his own ad. As an RM game, I don't feel it needs 20k for the funding. Can he ask for this much? Of course he can but his plan was not solid enough to me personally to justify that amount. A XNA game with completely original assets and so on sure, but from the ad? There are conflicting elements.

author=perihelion
A big part of that price tag is art, because good art is expensive, and RPGs in particular are very asset-intensive. For a commercial game, you need commercial-quality graphics. For those of you decrying the use of the RTP, where exactly are you suggesting the replacement graphics come from? If an artist charges you $30/hour and takes three days to make a tileset, that's $18,000 for half as many tilesets as come with the XP RTP. There went your entire $20,000 Kickstarter, never mind sprites. And battle graphics. And character portraits. And animations. And GUI. These games would need to be asking for a lot more than $20k if they wanted to replace the RTP with graphics of similar quality. Oh, and don't forget you need audio too.

Just... Stop this dude it's really annoying. You're misinformed, you have no clue what the costs are and everything you're saying is hypothetical. If you actually took the time to figure out how much pixel art and vector art costs you would know that what you're saying is utter nonsense.

Art is actually an OVER-SATURATED market, to find good quality artists is no where near as hard as you described. Graphical artists are a dime a dozen, the good artists normally have rates because they have most likely done commissions at some point. These rates vary and if you've done research then you would actually know that artists are not demons, talk to them talk about your plan and your budget and present something interesting (artists like doing jobs that are actually interesting) and you would find out out that they will likely support / be willing to help projects that have a lot of planning behind it. They may even give you a small discount, especially if you were requesting something visual for an kickstarter ad initially. If this doesn't work? Keep looking, adjust your plan.

Deviant Art and Pixel community sites have a shit ton of artists, especially Deviant Art. Besides these communities there are even more places to check and either post job ads OR you can simply approach an artist if you like their gallery / work. I've dealt with artists that even had their commission windows closed and STILL were interested in working for a friend of mine or myself sometimes. I don't buy your arbitrary numbers you're pulling out god knows where. Stop misinforming people here. Of course there are artists that would want 30/hr, don't hire them find someone you can afford and does good work this part takes... effort?

author=perihelion
It's great if you can recruit a talented artist who will work for profit share, but if it happens, you got really lucky. It's completely unrealistic to expect someone to do tens of thousands of dollars of work essentially for free. And getting a bad artist to do it, or doing it yourself, is shooting yourself in the foot. Graphics are the first thing that potential customers judge you on, so if you actually want to sell copies, your game needs to be attractive. Unless you somehow manage to become a viral sensation, but don't count on that.

You acknowledge art to be #1 priority but then suggest it's impossible to find someone to do tens of thousands of art for free? Why would they do it for free? Pay them artists are starving as is. Second, pay your artists BEFORE you post an ad. Is that so hard? Pay for your assets initially something to show the general art of the game and then ask these crowd source companies to help you out, they clearly have a good indication of how the art looks (also more money, more detail).

Echoes made 43k and for what was essentially his first game. He showed off rtp looking art and called it temporary,

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/111698/posts/253663/image-129857-full.jpg?1340585226

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/111698/posts/253663/image-129856-full.jpg?1340584978

This is the current in game art... Do I even need to explain why it's more intelligible to HIRE artists firsts and pay your way to show how the game will REALLY look first? If you want you can learn to do the art yourself, but OH GOD THAT TAKES MONTHS OF WORK according to you that's basically a waste of time amirite?

By posting an ad with just rtp as temporary resources to me is ludicrous. Vacant Sky has how many people working on that game? Art is not that expensive, it will be a good chunk of any budget but again I'm telling you from experience that you don't know what you're talking about, look and you'll find affordable good artists willing to work with you if you have a solid plan. I've not only done commissions for art / music I know the ball park figure of how much the majority of artists would ask / fair prices to charge. The more you are informed about these things, the easier it is to find people willing to work with you. Strong leader, strong project.

Edit:

Oh and base tiles, base tiles, base tiles... BASE TILES. Once you have initial base tiles you can use that for a lot of the game dude at least for tile based games *woosh. That would cost like.... *pulls out abacus (couldn't afford calculator that would cost $412,003 dollars)... Hmm like 18k?